Ireland & the Single Market post Brexit

An Ciarraioch

Stena follow suit, with one of its ferries moved from Belfast also to the Cherbourg route:

https://twitter.com/StenaLine/status/1349437365325017088

beggars_bush

A lot more traffic through Rosslare
That motorway south is going to be much busier
Lucky they finished that Enniscorthy bypass!

tanko

How much more expensive is it to ship a container from Ireland to the continent by boat than across the landbridge through Britain?

rock22

I have a car in a garage all week for repair. Delayed because of Brexit
I have been told that the car distributors here, in Ireland , are still sourcing everything from the UK. Obviously , as customer we have no choice but to go to the main dealers for cars.

I would be interested to hear from anyone in the industry to verify this . If it is true then it will mean very expensive cars and parts for us here in Ireland

Hopefull they might begin shifting supply channels directly to the continent.

Hurrache

What do you mean you have to go to the main dealers for cars? You can buy a car from anywhere that sells them, and get it repaired wherever you want.

edit: I guess you mean buying a new car? I suppose it depends on the car, some have distributors into Ireland who source from the manufacturer, some may import directly from the manufacturer, and others may source from the UK. But I imagine the latter may be for specific cars or models and not how they stock their entire forecourt.

Nody

tanko wrote: »

How much more expensive is it to ship a container from Ireland to the continent by boat than across the landbridge through Britain?

There are two issues of note; first of all UK export trucks used to run about 80% empty before Brexit. This meant that you could basically get transport for as close to free as you can get because the truck companies wanted and would take anything out simply to have someone pay for the fuel for the return leg (assuming you did not want to go all the way to Ukraine or similar). Second part is time; you can cut transit time via land bridge vs. ferry (which was what made it popular) transit time.

Now the above was before December and did not take into account covid tests, Kent permits and all that fun stuff. Today I'd guess (I'm not involved in transport directly any more) it's cheaper to take the ferry simply because the waiting times (and then related surcharges from the truck companies) will drive the land bridge cost way up.

rock22

Hurrache wrote: »

What do you mean you have to go to the main dealers for cars? You can buy a car from anywhere that sells them, and get it repaired wherever you want.

edit: I guess you mean buying a new car? I suppose it depends on the car, some have distributors into Ireland who source from the manufacturer, some may import directly from the manufacturer, and others may source from the UK. But I imagine the latter may be for specific cars or models and not how they stock their entire forecourt.

I am talking about the main distribution of new cars by the main manufacturers, i.e. VW, Nissan, etc.

I have been told that these are continuing to source cars and parts from UK distributors rather than directly with the manufacturers, which obvious cost to Irish customers. My car is held up because Volkswagen are waiting on parts from UK ( not Germany or EU)

An Ciarraioch

Didn't realise Stena actually owned Fishguard - they confirm Irish freight has fallen by 70%:

https://trans.info/en/freight-traffic-on-fishguard-to-rosslare-route-down-70-217908

L1011

An Ciarraioch wrote: »

Didn't realise Stena actually owned Fishguard - they confirm Irish freight has fallen by 70%:

https://trans.info/en/freight-traffic-on-fishguard-to-rosslare-route-down-70-217908

Weirdly and for complex historical reasons,Stena and Irish Rail both 50% own Rosslare and Fishguard each. Each operates one for simplicity purposes.

L1011

rock22 wrote: »

I have been told that these are continuing to source cars and parts from UK distributors rather than directly with the manufacturers

I don't think that's the issue - the issue is that the manufacturers RHD parts stockpiles are in the UK.

VW in Ireland are distributed by VW themselves; there are no intermediaries in the UK.

Geuze

Perhaps off topic, but Rosslare Harbour seems very basic???

There doesn't seem to be much infrastructure there?

For example, just one ramp for each ship?


I think I recall seeing two ramps into ships at other ports?

kub

Geuze wrote: »

Perhaps off topic, but Rosslare Harbour seems very basic???

There doesn't seem to be much infrastructure there?

For example, just one ramp for each ship?


I think I recall seeing two ramps into ships at other ports?

Well as previously mentioned Irish Rail own it, I wonder if it was handed over to another body would it be the best option. Let IR do what they do best.

prawnsambo

kub wrote: »

Well as previously mentioned Irish Rail own it, I wonder if it was handed over to another body would it be the best option. Let IR do what they do best.

There is a four phase plan to upgrade the port costed at €30 million. Wll take five years though.

breezy1985

prawnsambo wrote: »

There is a four phase plan to upgrade the port costed at €30 million. Wll take five years though.

Its gonna make me sound stupid but I hate a master plan that doesnt have pictures

An Ciarraioch

Stena add a further ferry between Dublin and Cherbourg, with Brittany Ferries following suit between Rosslare and the Normandy port:

https://www.rte.ie/news/business/2021/0116/1190163-stena-adds-dublin-cherbourg-route-to-meet-brexit-demand/

https://twitter.com/byrne_padraig/status/1350378189101662208

lawred2

kub wrote: »

Well as previously mentioned Irish Rail own it, I wonder if it was handed over to another body would it be the best option. Let IR do what they do best.

what's that?

lawred2

prawnsambo wrote: »

There is a four phase plan to upgrade the port costed at €30 million. Wll take five years though.

We've had near 5 years since a Brexit vote. This is fairly appalling level of infrastructural development.

prawnsambo

lawred2 wrote: »

We've had near 5 years since a Brexit vote. This is fairly appalling level of infrastructural development.

They installed a border inspection post last year, the only one outside Dublin Port. It's also a 'one stop shop' for everytiing from customs declarations to SPS checks. To be fair, even with the increased traffic due to brexit, I haven't heard any problems with delays or congestion at the port.

CelticRambler

lawred2 wrote: »

We've had near 5 years since a Brexit vote. This is fairly appalling level of infrastructural development.

Considering they - the UK - didn't know what kind of Brexit they wanted until about a month ago, I'd say it was a perfectly sensible level of development. Are there queues of lorries up the N11 as far as Wexford? If not, then it'd be fair to say that Roslare is currently coping better than Dover or Folkestone/Eurotunnel with their vastly greater capacity.

Datacore

This is a direct result of the U.K’s total inability to provide a road map for Brexit.

Nobody was sure that there was going to be a hard Brexit, which is more or less what we have now. It’s not absolutely worst case scenario, but it’s about as close to it as you could get based on an incredibly thin agreement.

Businesses both in the U.K. and in the EU, particularly here in Ireland, weren’t able to plan because there was no notion what the outcome would be.

The result is port chaos and problems. That was always inevitable if the deal was as badly constructed.

This could literally destroy companies like say M&S. It very clearly had a far more optimistic outcome in mind. You can see lots of other supply chains were totally unprepared and even logistics companies seem to be struggling badly.

Businesses don’t invest money in things they don’t need to and the impression given the whole time was this would be smooth. That’s what was told to businesses time and time again by the U.K. government. The best you could call that was grossly misleading nonsense.

CelticRambler

Datacore wrote: »

Businesses both in the U.K. and in the EU, particularly here in Ireland, weren’t able to plan because there was no notion what the outcome would be.

That's not quite true. Businesses in Ireland were told by the Irish government to consider how Brexit might affect them and plan accordingly. From three years ago, the British government laid out a set of red lines that made it inevitable that we'd end up with the kind of deal that was signed on Christmas Eve, unless they capitulated on several key points, which became increasingly unlikely as the months went on, and certainly after the last UK election. It certainly seems now like too many Irish businesses listened to the British government's nonsense instead of reading the notices published by the EU.

prawnsambo

CelticRambler wrote: »

That's not quite true. Businesses in Ireland were told by the Irish government to consider how Brexit might affect them and plan accordingly. From three years ago, the British government laid out a set of red lines that made it inevitable that we'd end up with the kind of deal that was signed on Christmas Eve, unless they capitulated on several key points, which became increasingly unlikely as the months went on, and certainly after the last UK election. It certainly seems now like too many Irish businesses listened to the British government's nonsense instead of reading the notices published by the EU.

It'll be interesting to see the figures for exports/imports to/from the UK as the months go on. I suspect that there will be a fairly significant dip.

Datacore

Many businesses have no choice tbh. You’re looking at areas like food and logistics. Many of those are very low margin, high volume industries with limited access to capital.

Brexit also was delivered in the midst of a highly disruptive pandemic that has profound impacts on those very businesses.

It’s all fine and well in theory to assume that businesses will uproot all sorts of status quo situations for a theoretical event, but the reality is that many simply can’t. They trade from quarter to quarter.

Plenty of businesses did plan. I’m aware of several that put huge contingencies in place.

However, I really don’t think many thought it could be as bad as this.

Brexit just seems to be delivering no upsides really at all.

lawred2

CelticRambler wrote: »

Considering they - the UK - didn't know what kind of Brexit they wanted until about a month ago, I'd say it was a perfectly sensible level of development. Are there queues of lorries up the N11 as far as Wexford? If not, then it'd be fair to say that Roslare is currently coping better than Dover or Folkestone/Eurotunnel with their vastly greater capacity.

but since the Brexit vote - the need to reduce the dependency on the UK landbridge was well signaled

yet here we are at one of the ports that will be key to that with a 5 year "plan"...

the 5 years started 5 years ago

Nody

Datacore wrote: »

Brexit just seems to be delivering no upsides really at all.

That is simply an outright lie I tell you!

I mean the fish are happier now that they are British; Rees Mogg has stated as much himself and I'm sure he's been talking with the fishes.

Women will save on average 42 GBP on sanitary VAT deduction in their lifetime, that goes a long way to offset the downsides. And let's not forget UK is now fully sovereign and in charge of their own destiny.

So what that UK pork farmers can't ship their usual 180.000 tons of meat to the EU or that the fishing industry is dying in front of our eyes? Empty food markets is pure coincidence and all those trucking companies refusing to go to UK or having problem leaving is only a temporary teething problem, it will go away in a jiffy simply believe harder and trust Boris!

CelticRambler

lawred2 wrote: »

but since the Brexit vote - the need to reduce the dependency on the UK landbridge was well signaled

yet here we are at one of the ports that will be key to that with a 5 year "plan"...

the 5 years started 5 years ago

Again: show me the photos of Rosslare and adjacent parts of Wexford and Waterford being overwhelmed now. There has been a huge, huge increase in direct sailings from Ireland to the continent, over the last two years, and especially in the last month - so if the pace of development is seriously lagging, it should be crystal clear on the ground, just like it is in Kent. Let's see the tweets from truckers standing in the rain at Rosslare, queued up on the N11 with no toilet facilities, being sent from one parking zone to another ...

Don't forget that it's only recently Rosslare lost sailings - when they were transfered to Dublin - so by every measure that I can see, the development plan was appropriately cautious. Perhaps the situation will change over the course of the year; we'll see ...

Datacore

Nody wrote: »

That is simply an outright lie I tell you!

I mean the fish are happier now that they are British; Rees Mogg has stated as much himself and I'm sure he's been talking with the fishes.

Women will save on average 42 GBP on sanitary VAT deduction in their lifetime, that goes a long way to offset the downsides. And let's not forget UK is now fully sovereign and in charge of their own destiny.

So what that UK pork farmers can't ship their usual 180.000 tons of meat to the EU or that the fishing industry is dying in front of our eyes? Empty food markets is pure coincidence and all those trucking companies refusing to go to UK or having problem leaving is only a temporary teething problem, it will go away in a jiffy simply believe harder and trust Boris!

And that was a party political broadcast on behalf of the Minister for the Nineteenth Century, General Sir Anthony Cecil Hogmanay Melchett, VC, KCB, DSO, MP.

fly_agaric

Datacore wrote: »

Many businesses have no choice tbh. You’re looking at areas like food and logistics. Many of those are very low margin, high volume industries with limited access to capital.

Brexit also was delivered in the midst of a highly disruptive pandemic that has profound impacts on those very businesses.

It’s all fine and well in theory to assume that businesses will uproot all sorts of status quo situations for a theoretical event, but the reality is that many simply can’t. They trade from quarter to quarter.

Plenty of businesses did plan. I’m aware of several that put huge contingencies in place.

However, I really don’t think many thought it could be as bad as this.

Brexit just seems to be delivering no upsides really at all.

That's true (imo). I've thought that if the status quo is cheaper and faster until 1/1/21, and preparing for Brexit costs money too you could have disadvantaged yourself in the short term by being prudent since 2018. It looks to me like (Irish) govt. perhaps did not do enough here.

Unlike the UK govt. they've had no blinkers on about Brexit and warned and advised and offered help, but maybe in hindsight they should have incentivised and forced more changes to trade pre end of transition.
Of course, that would go against the ideology of most political parties (esp. FF/FG) that one never interferes in the "market" & businesses should be left alone to get on with it & know their own turf best etc.

BorneTobyWilde

If UK had a referendum tomorrow to join EU it would win 70% 30% , reality has slapped the fishermen and businesses in the face.
If Labour should be running on the promise to rejoin, now that reality has hit.

Datacore

fly_agaric wrote: »

That's true (imo). I've thought that if the status quo is cheaper and faster until 1/1/21, and preparing for Brexit costs money too you could have disadvantaged yourself in the short term by being prudent since 2018. It looks to me like govt. perhaps did not do enough here.

Unlike the UK govt. they've had no blinkers on about Brexit and warned and advised and offered help, but maybe in hindsight they should have incentivised and forced more changes to trade pre end of transition.
Of course, that would go against the ideology of most political parties here that one never interferes in the "market" & businesses should be left alone to get on with it & know their own turf best etc.

It’s a mixture of necessity and blinkers.

The government did a fair bit, but many companies likely didn’t engage as much as they could have. There’s been a thread of “it will all sort itself out” running though it for years.

I really don’t think anyone thought it would be as stark as this, rather more of a soft adjustment, which was what last year should have been, but without a clear plan based on an agreement, that was left until the last minute by many.