"Security at Leinster House to be urgently reviewed in light of Washington riots"

tdf7187

To be clear about something important, Ashli Babbitt was not a terrorist. She was an insurrectionist, but not a terrorist.

Biden and others, including their supporters right here on this very thread, are deliberately lying about that, and no one on the left, or even the center-left, should let the lie stand.

A terrorist is someone who inflicts terror on a civilian population to advance political, ideological, or religious goals. There were no civilians involved a couple of days ago, except for the rioters themselves.

This was an assault on the government, not the civilian population. The distinction is important. Labelling anyone inside the borders of the USA terrorists could be used to justify arbitrary drone strikes on anyone the President deems a “terrorist.” This is far more likely to be used against the left than against right-wingers.

flazio

mynamejeff wrote: »

any expertise to back up this inaccurate and entirely wrong statement ?

firearms training ? qualifications ? even familiarisation outside of playing xbox or what ever

Any and all military and police organisation in the world outside of film and tv world shoot to hit centre mass ,this is not a secret

Direct conversation with a sergeant in the Armed Response Unit in my capacity as a Civil Defence 3rd officer working alongside An Garda Síochána during the Ballinasloe Horse fair in 2016.

Told me as well that the Guards are psych evaluated and anyone who fancies themselves as authorised state executioners are shown the door.

Overheal

tdf7187 wrote: »

To be clear about something important, Ashli Babbitt was not a terrorist. She was an insurrectionist, but not a terrorist.

Biden and others, including their supporters right here on this very thread, are deliberately lying about that, and no one on the left, or even the center-left, should let the lie stand.

A terrorist is someone who inflicts terror on a civilian population to advance political, ideological, or religious goals. There were no civilians involved a couple of days ago, except for the rioters themselves.

This was an assault on the government, not the civilian population. The distinction is important. Labelling anyone inside the borders of the USA terrorists could be used to justify arbitrary drone strikes on anyone the President deems a “terrorist.” This is far more likely to be used against the left than against right-wingers.

18 U.S. Code § 2331 - Definitions

(5)the term “domestic terrorism” means activities that—
(A)involve acts dangerous to human life that are a violation of the criminal laws of the United States or of any State;
(B)appear to be intended—
(i)to intimidate or coerce a civilian population;
(ii)to influence the policy of a government by intimidation or coercion; or
(iii)to affect the conduct of a government by mass destruction, assassination, or kidnapping; and
(C)occur primarily within the territorial jurisdiction of the United States

It rings every bell.

ILoveYourVibes

eyeforaneye wrote: »

Notice in Irish Independent this morning: "Security at Leinster House to be urgently reviewed in light of Washington riots"

Nonsense. A lot of us in Ireland have issues with our politicians but to be honest none of them(not many anyway) descend to the imbecilic level of Donald Trump who single handedly caused insurrection to break-out on Capital Hill. Fears that groups could target Leinster House in a similar fashion to what played out in Washington overnight are baseless. Keep the focus on Covid and concentrate Government resources on expediting more vaccines into the country. We are lagging way behind Britain and the rest of the world and this will inevitably delay our recovery and increase short term unemployment.

Nothing wrong with being extra certain though.

Overheal

ILoveYourVibes wrote: »

Nothing wrong with being extra certain though.

One things for sure: after major violent events, there are never copycats.

ILoveYourVibes

Overheal wrote: »

One things for sure: after major violent events, there are never copycats.

I know.
There were even a few already in the states on other govt buildings.

Strumms

This country, The Republic Of Ireland.. is a Democratic Republic.

The current government is assembled and active under the provisions of the constitution....any attempt to usurp, undermine or overthrow a government by non democratic means ie violence... is terrorism.

http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/1998/en/act/pub/0039/

The Garda Síochána, the Army, quite simply need to protect our democracy, institutions and the wellbeing thereof. If the Dail is attacked.. they simply use proportional force to protect it and our democracy... if that means deadly force, so be it.

ILoveYourVibes

Strumms wrote: »

This country, The Republic Of Ireland.. is a Democratic Republic.

The current government is assembled and active under the provisions of the constitution....any attempt to usurp, undermine or overthrow a government by non democratic means ie violence... is terrorism.

http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/1998/en/act/pub/0039/

The Garda Síochána, the Army, quite simply need to protect our democracy, institutions and the wellbeing thereof. If the Dail is attacked.. they simply use proportional force to protect it and our democracy... if that means deadly force, so be it.

I don't believe for a second if it were Gemma O'Doherty or any one on the right that they would use full proportional force.

Believe it or not FF and FG scoop up some of those votes too.

biko

BattleCorp wrote: »

Relax the kacks there boss. I'm agreeing with what you have said above. I'm just asking the question because I don't know.

I saw the video, at no time did she appear to be armed.
She was shot while trying to climb through a barricaded door window https://nypost.com/2021/01/07/videos-show-shooting-of-ashli-babbitt-during-capitol-siege/

Annasopra

CtevenSrowder wrote: »

The point, Joey, is that you are oh so concerned about the far-right, that has no TD's, virtually no councilors, and next to no support, and rightly point out that the far left has sitting officials, so are far more powerful. Yet you view the far right as some huge threat. Ireland isn't America.

Members of the far left in Ireland have assaulted the Taoiseach, called for the nationalisation of large US MNC's and de-facto held a politician hostage in their own car. However do I view the far left as a massive threat to society? No, I don't. And as such, I don't obsess about them like you do the far right.

The biggest terrorist threat in Ireland (and as a result Europe btw) comes from far left groups, not far right ones.

Indeed. So far the far right in Ireland hasnt been burning potential DP centres or TDs cars or sending death threats to black people or beating up their oppenents violently with sticks. And nothing internationally either. They didnt kill people in Batley and Spen or Utoya or Christchurch. Nothing to see here.

ILoveYourVibes

Joeytheparrot wrote: »

Indeed. So far the far right in Ireland hasnt been burning potential DP centres or TDs cars or sending death threats to black people or beating up their oppenents violently with sticks. And nothing internationally either. They didnt kill people in Batley and Spen or Utoya or Christchurch. Nothing to see here.

And they say this is not like America.

Signore Fancy Pants

ILoveYourVibes wrote: »

I don't believe for a second if it were Gemma O'Doherty or any one on the right that they would use full proportional force.

Believe it or not FF and FG scoop up some of those votes too.

It doesnt matter what you believe, politics will not enter the head of any member of AGS/DF if the need for force is to be applied.

Also the term "full proportional force" is contradictory.

corner of hells

flazio wrote: »

Direct conversation with a sergeant in the Armed Response Unit in my capacity as a Civil Defence 3rd officer working alongside An Garda Síochána during the Ballinasloe Horse fair in 2016.

Told me as well that the Guards are psych evaluated and anyone who fancies themselves as authorised state executioners are shown the door.

Was that the first Battle of Ballinasloe or the second one ?

ILoveYourVibes

Signore Fancy Pants wrote: »

It doesnt matter what you believe, politics will not enter the head of any member of AGS/DF if the need for force is to be applied.

.

This has been proven false last year.

Signore Fancy Pants

ILoveYourVibes wrote: »

This has been proven false last year.

Do you know what "full proportional force" is?

Also, please provide a link to whatever happened "last year".

BattleCorp

biko wrote: »

I saw the video, at no time did she appear to be armed.
She was shot while trying to climb through a barricaded door window https://nypost.com/2021/01/07/videos-show-shooting-of-ashli-babbitt-during-capitol-siege/

Yeah, I watched the videos of her getting shot and couldn't see any sign of her being armed. That is why I asked the question.

BattleCorp

ILoveYourVibes wrote: »

I don't believe for a second if it were Gemma O'Doherty or any one on the right that they would use full proportional force.

Believe it or not FF and FG scoop up some of those votes too.

Gemma O'Doherty is a nutcase. I'm fairly sure that the right are disowning her. She's in a category all on her own.........along with John Waters..............and yellow vests................ok, maybe not all on her own.

Annasopra

BattleCorp wrote: »

Gemma O'Doherty is a nutcase. I'm fairly sure that the right are disowning her. She's in a category all on her own.........along with John Waters..............and yellow vests................ok, maybe not all on her own.

Hmmmm well not really Yellow Vests have close links to Irish freedom party which is now supposedly merging with direct democracy ireland and renua.

Strumms

tdf7187 wrote: »

To be clear about something important, Ashli Babbitt was not a terrorist. She was an insurrectionist, but not a terrorist.

Biden and others, including their supporters right here on this very thread, are deliberately lying about that, and no one on the left, or even the center-left, should let the lie stand.

A terrorist is someone who inflicts terror on a civilian population to advance political, ideological, or religious goals. There were no civilians involved a couple of days ago, except for the rioters themselves.

This was an assault on the government, not the civilian population. The distinction is important. Labelling anyone inside the borders of the USA terrorists could be used to justify arbitrary drone strikes on anyone the President deems a “terrorist.” This is far more likely to be used against the left than against right-wingers.

Terrorisim : the unlawful use of violence and intimidation, in the broadest sense, the use of intentional violence for political or religious purposes.

The government are the people.. it was an assault on the government of the people, it was violent, it was terrorism.... no gray areas.

They were too cowardly to go after the White House, would have been more then one shot.

BattleCorp

Joeytheparrot wrote: »

Hmmmm well not really Yellow Vests have close links to Irish freedom party which is now supposedly merging with direct democracy ireland and renua.

That leads me to believe they are all nutcases.

Everlong1

A few loony left knuckledraggers, ''inspired'' by their heroes in Greece at the time, tried to attack LH back in 2010.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bQ1DJUjt8y8&list=PL_Qg2-7mhaDbTVN4ULm3RzJKMGiU4SWdJ&index=47

Hotblack Desiato

Cheerful Spring2 wrote: »

This is the woman on video marching' before she got shot.

Three million plus people, eh?

Maybe the US needs to set up special schools for Right Wingers That Don't Count Too Good.

whisky_galore

Rothko wrote: »

There's a certain amount of Irish people who think they're American and seem to mindlessly copy everything they do. Just look at the anti-mask and anti-vax crowd.

Open a new donut outlet and place is jammed with cars cos they want to eat the donuts from Amerikay.

Faugheen

I really don't see the problem with this.

The scenes in the US should be forcing every country to, at the very least, review their current standards. Everyone likes to say it wouldn't happen here but all it takes is one group of nutcases on one day for that to go arseways.

What's the harm?

Ten of Swords

A number of posts have been deleted, can we stick to the topic in the op please which is the security review of Leinster House

Discussing the recent events in the US as a basis for this, or to provide context, is fine but the thread has veered off into a tangent exclusively about US politics and there is already a thread for that in CA

https://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2058140418

blanch152

Faugheen wrote: »

I really don't see the problem with this.

The scenes in the US should be forcing every country to, at the very least, review their current standards. Everyone likes to say it wouldn't happen here but all it takes is one group of nutcases on one day for that to go arseways.

What's the harm?

Agreed, and we have more than our share of nutcases, many of whom have supporters in the Dail, where we are privileged to have anti-vaxxers, 9/11 conspiracists etc., making Congress look pretty mundane.

gormdubhgorm

Rothko wrote: »

There's a certain amount of Irish people who think they're American and seem to mindlessly copy everything they do. Just look at the anti-mask and anti-vax crowd.

Not to mention uses Z's instead of S's. These people don't just organise they organize!

The Taoiseach was drinking cans in a public park a few months ago.

I think Leinster House will be alright.

Danno

whisky_galore wrote: »

Open a new donut outlet and place is jammed with cars cos they want to eat the donuts from Amerikay.

You've obs never been to D4, loike?

Overheal

Deleted User wrote: »

The Taoiseach was drinking cans in a public park a few months ago.

I think Leinster House will be alright.

I mean you would hope leadership and the public are safe and happy around each other in public like that right? But that still shouldn't dismiss security concerns about the continuity of government. Emergencies will happen.

tdf7187

Overheal wrote: »

I mean you would hope leadership and the public are safe and happy around each other in public like that right? But that still shouldn't dismiss security concerns about the continuity of government. Emergencies will happen.

Speak for yourself. Michael Martin is not and will never be my 'leader'. His party has very little support. You seem to misunderstand that we live in a constitutional republic. Thanks. Note, I do not support storming Leinster House.

I wouldn't get your knickers in a twist over any risk of such an incident here, there is negligible risk of it. Your 'leaders' are safe enough, the public is too cowed and under-the-cosh. When the pandemic ends, we will return to working our asses off in an increasingly unaffordable state, brainwashed by consumerism, buying things we don't need, keeping up with the Joneses. That's modern Ireland - and it suits your 'leaders' fine to keep it that way.

flazio

tdf7187 wrote: »

Speak for yourself. Michael Martin is not and will never be my 'leader'. His party has very little support. You seem to misunderstand that we live in a constitutional republic. Thanks. Note, I do not support storming Leinster House.

I wouldn't get your knickers in a twist over any risk of such an incident here, there is negligible risk of it. Your 'leaders' are safe enough, the public is too cowed and under-the-cosh. When the pandemic ends, we will return to working our asses off in an increasingly unaffordable state, brainwashed by consumerism, buying things we don't need, keeping up with the Joneses. That's modern Ireland - and it suits your 'leaders' fine to keep it that way.

You don't win the joint highest amount of seats in the Dáil with "very little support" (Ceann Comhairle doesn't count) Not a big fan of any of the big 3 myself but I do respect the results of the last general election as the only opinion poll that counts.

Kivaro

Looking at the first page of this thread, which started off the topic in a light-hearted and enjoyable manner, and to look at the last couple of pages, it is disappointing that the same one or two posters drags down the whole mood of the thread with the same style and substance that they use in other threads.

Thelonious Monk

I used to work in Leinster House sometimes, to be fair there really is no security, a few fat hungover ushers in their 50s hanging around waiting for their next 45 minute tea break is all. And maybe a Garda at the front on their phone. If you wanted to go nuts in the place, a few angry blokes could easily go in and do whatever they wanted, I always used to think this when going in there.
I'm not sure anyone could be bothered though, so that's security in itself.

sabat

Thelonious Monk wrote: »

I used to work in Leinster House sometimes, to be fair there really is no security, a few fat hungover ushers in their 50s hanging around waiting for their next 45 minute tea break is all. And maybe a Garda at the front on their phone. If you wanted to go nuts in the place, a few angry blokes could easily go in and do whatever they wanted, I always used to think this when going in there.
I'm not sure anyone could be bothered though, so that's security in itself.

There's a permanent army presence there-they have a barracks in the basement.

CtevenSrowder

Joeytheparrot wrote: »

Indeed. So far the far right in Ireland hasnt been burning potential DP centres or TDs cars or sending death threats to black people or beating up their oppenents violently with sticks. And nothing internationally either. They didnt kill people in Batley and Spen or Utoya or Christchurch. Nothing to see here.

Yes Joey, both the far right and far left do terrible things. Both can be as dangerous as eachother. It's not a competition. You put all your focus on one 'side', to near obsessive levels though. Only one group has sitting TD's in Ireland, and in some respects, let's hope it stays that way.

CtevenSrowder

ILoveYourVibes wrote: »

And they say this is not like America.

Are Batley, Spen and Christchurch in Ireland now? News to me.

Hotblack Desiato

eyeforaneye wrote: »

Fears that groups could target Leinster House in a similar fashion to what played out in Washington overnight are baseless.

Nope, there are plenty of nutters out there - Gemma and her crew, National Party, Irexit etc. Now most of them hate each other as much or more than they hate everyone else, but if they all decided to band together they could cause a lot of disruption.

Keep the focus on Covid and concentrate Government resources on expediting more vaccines into the country.

The EU is allocating deliveries of vaccine to each member state as they come in, in proportion to each state's population. There is nothing we or the EU can do to get the vaccine made any faster, you might as well ask the Irish government to throw its resources into getting PlayStation 5s into the hands of Irish customers more quickliy :rolleyes:

We are lagging way behind Britain

I don't believe the UK's spin on this for a moment.

Eric Cartman

I definitely think we should up security, with the ever present threats from left wing groups who love invading buildings and the likes of the conspiracy-right in the US now joining in , its only a matter of time before the Sinn Fein Yellow Vest crowd try invade a building because not having a majority doesnt get them in to government

Annasopra

Eric Cartman wrote: »

I definitely think we should up security, with the ever present threats from left wing groups who love invading buildings and the likes of the conspiracy-right in the US now joining in , its only a matter of time before the Sinn Fein Yellow Vest crowd try invade a building because not having a majority doesnt get them in to government

Sinn Fein Yellow Vest?

An Ri rua

You could always invade as a troupe of clowns, something like the bank robbers in Point Break, and just sit there on the benches in full regalia among the TDs.

To be honest, any bench would do. Hiding in plain sight, as it were.

Eric Cartman

Joeytheparrot wrote: »

Sinn Fein Yellow Vest?

The two groups massively overlap and yellowvest irelands hq was the sinn fein shop on parnell street,

Annasopra

Eric Cartman wrote: »

The two groups massively overlap and yellowvest irelands hq was the sinn fein shop on parnell street,

Hilarious but not really true. They may have some supporters in common but otherwise they are very different. SF are pro migration and pro EU. The yellow vesters are anti both. The Yellow Vesters hate Sinn Fein and always have IFP speakers like Dolores Cahill, Ben Gilroy and Hermann Kelly as speakers. Yellow Vesters always encouraging groyping on SF social media. SF members took part in the Anti Fascist Action Ireland counter ptotests. As far as I know the website thing was all a hoax.

Capt'n Midnight

Granadino wrote: »

Is it only left wing people who drink soya based products? Do right wingers only stick to basic coffee or tea?

It's the opposite. It's the left wing people who are limited in their beverage choices.

Because proper tea is theft.

piplip87

Joeytheparrot wrote: »

Sinn Fein Yellow Vest?

Theres a massive overlap in support though.

SF have the left wing ala Pual Murphy with added emphasis on a United Ireland. Where those with good jobs are the enemy.

The Centre section which is Berties promises of Cut Taxes on everything while increasing spending on everything.

The right--- Whose Brits out manifesto has now evolved to everybody out who is not Irish. They ones who have been on the dole for 20 years through two booms and a recession but still manage to blame the foreigner for everything. These lads are the ones who provided a room for a lad on the run in the 80s or sold Easter lillies during the 90s.

Now while that's great for polling numbers, If SF ever get to lead a government it may cause problems. They cannot keep the three wings happy. Which is why during the election a United Ireland was not brought up too much but once the results came in it was up da ra

FishOnABike

Hotblack Desiato wrote: »

Three million plus people, eh?

Maybe the US needs to set up special schools for Right Wingers That Don't Count Too Good.

I'm no good at judging the size of crowds, Ted. But I'd say there's about seventeen million of them out there.

Manion

Hi, first off I want to say I'm not a student of political theory and I usually avoid political discussions because people tend to have deeply held prior beliefs and the ability to defend whatever they feel they need to.

Recently there were reports in national news papers of a facebook group with strong links to Sinn Fein (Called in fact Sinn Fein) that contained posts by supporters advocated the murder of political opponents. Similar language, perhaps to a smaller scale, as found from Trump supporters on the likes of Parler and Gab. People have done a lot of hand wringing over this; "We can't control what people says; it's only a small numbers; that's not officially endorsed by Sinn Fein etc" but it ignores the reporting that elected representatives of Sinn Fein where in the group and party staff had awareness of the group and apparently the ability change the standing rules.

While I accept it will be a tiny tiny minority of supporters who hold these extremist views, a larger number tolerate them and that is really where the issue is. I feel it is fair enough to judge a political party by their willingness to tolerate advocacy of political violence to achieve political aims. I've gone through my life and I've managed to avoid being part of any groupings of people who are racist, violent, sexist, hatful etc. I don't tolerate it in my personal or professional life, I don't see why I would ever give a pass to a political party for tolerating it either. It's not about left and right, its about right and wrong.

That is all.

flazio

flazio wrote: »

Absolute nonsense. Firing to disable is always the intent of law enforcement fire arm bearers. Otherwise the paperwork is horrendous.

Well that's an out right lie

Thelonious Monk

Thelonious Monk wrote: »

I used to work in Leinster House sometimes, to be fair there really is no security, a few fat hungover ushers in their 50s hanging around waiting for their next 45 minute tea break is all. And maybe a Garda at the front on their phone. If you wanted to go nuts in the place, a few angry blokes could easily go in and do whatever they wanted, I always used to think this when going in there.
I'm not sure anyone could be bothered though, so that's security in itself.

And yet you missed the armed soldiers wandering around

tdf7187

tdf7187 wrote: »

To be clear about something important, Ashli Babbitt was not a terrorist. She was an insurrectionist, but not a terrorist.

Biden and others, including their supporters right here on this very thread, are deliberately lying about that, and no one on the left, or even the center-left, should let the lie stand.

A terrorist is someone who inflicts terror on a civilian population to advance political, ideological, or religious goals. There were no civilians involved a couple of days ago, except for the rioters themselves.

This was an assault on the government, not the civilian population. The distinction is important. Labelling anyone inside the borders of the USA terrorists could be used to justify arbitrary drone strikes on anyone the President deems a “terrorist.” This is far more likely to be used against the left than against right-wingers.

That's absolutely not the definition of terrorism. Where did you getn it?