Schools closed until March/April? (part 4) **Mod warning in OP 22/01**

hesaidshesaid

TonyMaloney wrote: »

Are you saying they never mass tested any schools, or that it was always based on a tip off (contact tracing)?

This is all very murky

To the best of my knowledge and experience since September, the only testing that has been done regarding school kids is when there is a positive case in the class - close contact testing. Open to correction on this, but I have many teacher colleagues all around the country whose experience is the same. Many teachers/SNAs had to go to their GPs for tests as they were not deemed close contacts by Public Health.

Mass testing in a school setting means testing the close contacts - sometimes this is a whole class as there is no social distancing from Junior Infants to 2nd Class. Arguably there’s no real social distancing in 3rd - 6th either, as ‘pods’ are just table groups and the vast majority of Irish classrooms are too small to have 2m between each table group.

So the definitions of mass testing and close contacts are completely different in schools than they are in any other crowded building. Meanwhile ‘schools are safe’.

Schools are not safe, no crowded building is, but they still need to be open. If there was transparency around cases and actual mass testing, we would have much better data on how to keep them open.

TonyMaloney

Icyseanfitz wrote: »

There was never any mass testing in schools, hell even the criteria for close contact testing was narrowed/reduced for schools

So they've a whole section on mass-testing schools on their website and have never mass tested any schools?

Like, so we're clear, have they ever gone into a school, even one with suspected cases, and tested everyone that will take a test?

Sorry for all the commas in that last sentence. I know you're a teacher.

hesaidshesaid

TonyMaloney wrote: »

So they've a whole section on mass-testing schools on their website and have never mass tested any schools?

Like, so we're clear, have they ever gone into a school, even one with suspected cases, and tested everyone that will take a test? .

.

That would never happen. Testing happens in test centres. Parents have to give consent.

This is what mass testing means in schools. It’s from the HSE report.

TonyMaloney

hesaidshesaid wrote: »

.

That would never happen. Testing happens in test centres. Parents have to give consent.

This is what mass testing means in schools. It’s from the HSE report.

right, but that text is not present in earlier reports

that said, I've already made this mistake once already tonight and may have a form of dementia

hesaidshesaid

TonyMaloney wrote: »

right, but that text is not present in earlier reports

that said, I've already made this mistake once already tonight and may have a form of dementia

It’s not in the earlier reports because there was selective reporting going on. One of the INTO and FORSA’s criteria for getting schools back open was more open reporting of school case numbers. The reporting is still not as transparent as school staff want but at least they are being more honest about what mass testing in schools actually means.

That said, it’s worth very little now because as you can see, the general public still believe that it’s actual mass testing and NPHET and DES are still calling it that. The confusion serves the schools are safe narrative.

TonyMaloney

right, so one last time because I'm slow - there's a ream of reports available on mass testing of schools, but not a single school in the country has been mass tested to date?

hesaidshesaid

TonyMaloney wrote: »

right, so one last time because I'm slow - there's a ream of reports available on mass testing of schools, but not a single school in the country has been mass tested to date?

Tony. You’re killing me here.

NO.

Why in god’s name do you think teachers, SNAs and (some) parents keep talking about data on school cases being unreliable and incomplete??

Read this from October. Nothing has changed.

https://www.rte.ie/news/2020/1031/1175008-schools-covid/

TonyMaloney

hesaidshesaid wrote: »

Tony. You’re killing me here.

NO.

Why in god’s name do you think teachers, SNAs and (some) parents keep talking about data on school cases being unreliable and incomplete??

Read this from October. Nothing has changed.

https://www.rte.ie/news/2020/1031/1175008-schools-covid/

I read the whole thing and I didn't get an answer to my question.

I'm completely agreed that having different criteria for close contacts in schools is bollocks.
It has warped how society looks at this bastard.

hesaidshesaid

TonyMaloney wrote: »

I read the whole thing and I didn't get an answer to my question.

I'm completely agreed that having different criteria for close contacts in schools is bollocks.
It has warped how society looks at this bastard.

It states clearly that only close contacts are being tested and that the definition of close contacts is limited. That answers your question. There is no other testing happening in schools. Just accept it.

If they stick with only testing the table group, or ‘pod’ as they insist on calling it, when 3rd - 6th go back next week, there will be uproar IMO. Meanwhile, they’ve classed pregnant school staff as high-risk until after the Easter holidays, so they don’t have to come back until then. What I’m hearing from colleagues is questions about how they will suddenly become non-high risk on April 12th. Hopefully case numbers will be down significantly by then, otherwise I can see many of them taking unpaid leave. And there are no spare teachers.

SusanC10

hesaidshesaid wrote: »

It states clearly that only close contacts are being tested and that the definition of close contacts is limited. That answers your question. There is no other testing happening in schools. Just accept it.

If they stick with only testing the table group, or ‘pod’ as they insist on calling it, when 3rd - 6th go back next week, there will be uproar IMO. Meanwhile, they’ve classed pregnant school staff as high-risk until after the Easter holidays, so they don’t have to come back until then. What I’m hearing from colleagues is questions about how they will suddenly become non-high risk on April 12th. Hopefully case numbers will be down significantly by then, otherwise I can see many of them taking unpaid leave. And there are no spare teachers.

Pre-Christmas, in the Primary our daughter attends, there was a case in another Class. A "pod" in that class (and our daughter's class) is 2 kids sitting at 1 table. So, the other child was a close contact and that was it. No one else.
I really hope that isn't the same next week.

lulublue22

SusanC10 wrote: »

Pre-Christmas, in the Primary our daughter attends, there was a case in another Class. A "pod" in that class (and our daughter's class) is 2 kids sitting at 1 table. So, the other child was a close contact and that was it. No one else.
I really hope that isn't the same next week.

It would have been better from the outset if 1. the definition of a close contact was the same for schools and the community 2. a standard procedure for testing was implemented in classes with cases. It would have given a much clearer overview of the prevalence of covid in schools and would promote confidence among staff as to how covid in schools is managed. Instead there is an ad hoc response of no one tested , child on the left tested but not the right to entire class being tested. Coupled with DES intransigence and extremely divisive language from Josephia and Norma it has created a really divisive situation that could have been avoided. I think the gov have totally mishandled the school situation from the start.

Tiredandcranky

Hurrache wrote: »

Full classes are in which there was a positive case.

That’s simply untrue. Only ‘close contacts’ are tested. In a number of cases, not a single person has been deemed a close contact... particularly true in secondary schools where students have been masked.

wirelessdude01

Tiredandcranky wrote: »

That’s simply untrue. Only ‘close contacts’ are tested. In a number of cases, not a single person has been deemed a close contact... particularly true in secondary schools where students have been masked.

It is true though in a small number of cases in the junior classes in primary schools. I know of a few, including in my own school where entire classes have been tested. I also know of many cases where staff weren't considered close contacts, went to their own GP and got referred and turned out positive.

Seems to be very much down to the PH person who you get. There is zero consistency when it comes to whatever criteria they have been been given and it being applied in a uniform manner.

Icyseanfitz

TonyMaloney wrote: »

So they've a whole section on mass-testing schools on their website and have never mass tested any schools?

Like, so we're clear, have they ever gone into a school, even one with suspected cases, and tested everyone that will take a test?

Sorry for all the commas in that last sentence. I know you're a teacher.

Im an SNA in a large post primary btw, not a teacher I have yet to hear of the hse going into a school with even multiple cases and testing the entire school population, its just not happening. Maybe its down to the fear of unearthing a mountain of asymptomatic cases which would explain the reduced criteria for close contact testing and no mass testing.

Ive heard of plenty of positive cases in post primary classes, and as others have said, a lot of the time nothing is done with other students or staff as wearing a mask is seen as good enough protection, even though it could be 25-30 in a class for an hour or more at a time.

Hurrache

byhookorbycrook wrote: »

Untrue , unfortunately. Even children with no social distancing weren’t considered close contacts, much less tested. Why do you think schools were told not to inform parents of cases?

Tiredandcranky wrote: »

That’s simply untrue. Only ‘close contacts’ are tested. In a number of cases, not a single person has been deemed a close contact... particularly true in secondary schools where students have been masked.

It is true. Now just because you guys haven't experienced it doesn't mean it's not happening. Full classes have been, and are being, tested when there's a confirmed case in that class.

Poster below makes the point as to when it happens.

hesaidshesaid wrote: »

To the best of my knowledge and experience since September, the only testing that has been done regarding school kids is when there is a positive case in the class - close contact testing.
.....
Mass testing in a school setting means testing the close contacts - sometimes this is a whole class as there is no social distancing from Junior Infants to 2nd Class. Arguably there’s no real social distancing in 3rd - 6th either, as ‘pods’ are just table groups and the vast majority of Irish classrooms are too small to have 2m between each table group.

So the definitions of mass testing and close contacts are completely different in schools than they are in any other crowded building. Meanwhile ‘schools are safe’.

wirelessdude01

Icyseanfitz wrote: »

Im an SNA in a large post primary btw, not a teacher I have yet to hear of the hse going into a school with even multiple cases and testing the entire school population, its just not happening. Maybe its down to the fear of unearthing a mountain of asymptomatic cases which would explain the reduced criteria for close contact testing and no mass testing.

Ive heard of plenty of positive cases in post primary classes, and as others have said, a lot of the time nothing is done with other students or staff as wearing a mask is seen as good enough protection, even though it could be 25-30 in a class for an hour or more at a time.

Primary here and not aware of any school at any level where an entire school has been mass tested.

SusanC10

Had the last Online Class this morning for our daughter (5th Class). Teacher said (in response to a question) that 1 top part of 1 window will be open while the kids are in the classroom and that when they go outside he will open all windows. Also all windows will be open before and after school. No other changes.

We are keeping our daughter home until after Easter. Teacher is going to phone me tomorrow to discuss.

wirelessdude01

SusanC10 wrote: »

Had the last Online Class this morning for our daughter (5th Class). Teacher said (in response to a question) that 1 top part of 1 window will be open while the kids are in the classroom and that when they go outside he will open all windows. Also all windows will be open before and after school. No other changes.

We are keeping our daughter home until after Easter. Teacher is going to phone me tomorrow to discuss.

That is what the department want.

wirelessdude01

SusanC10 wrote: »

Had the last Online Class this morning for our daughter (5th Class). Teacher said (in response to a question) that 1 top part of 1 window will be open while the kids are in the classroom and that when they go outside he will open all windows. Also all windows will be open before and after school. No other changes.

We are keeping our daughter home until after Easter. Teacher is going to phone me tomorrow to discuss.

That is what the department want.

Did you expect there to be more changes?

SusanC10

wirelessdude01 wrote: »

That is what the department want.

Did you expect there to be more changes?

Well, he had all the windows open from end-August to Christmas. So, a step backwards.

wirelessdude01

SusanC10 wrote: »

Well, he had all the windows open from end-August to Christmas. So, a step backwards.

The department advice is not to have them all open when the kids are in the room.

I will be ignoring that though and have having all mine open next week.

hesaidshesaid

wirelessdude01 wrote: »

The department advice is not to have them all open when the kids are in the room.

I will be ignoring that though and have having all mine open next week.

Me too. Absolutely. But as you’ve said, DES advice is only to have some of them partially open when kids are in the room. Principal today told us this is DES’ workaround for the colder weather.

Have already warned the kids I teach to wear extra layers or their coats. They were fine with it. They just want the school to stay open.

hesaidshesaid

Hurrache wrote: »

It is true. Now just because you guys haven't experienced it doesn't mean it's not happening. Full classes have been, and are being, tested when there's a confirmed case in that class.

Poster below makes the point as to when it happens.

Just to clarify this point, it has not always happened that whole classes have been tested as close contacts even from Infants - 2nd. The approach from Public Health - the people who make all the decisions about who gets tested - was inconsistent at best up to December.

So that means school X could be told there’s a positive case in senior infants and that no-one else / the table group / the class should be tested. Any of those three outcomes was possible depending on which public health person answered the phone. This inconsistency completely eroded the trust and respect of school staff in the contact tracing system.

It remains to be seen whether things will be better from Monday with full school reopening. You’d have to hope that with a new, more transmissible variant that PH would cop on and realise that 30 unmasked kids in a small room for 5+ hours are all close contacts.

As an aside, a kid I teach told me on Zoom today that his mother is going away for a week to another European country with some friends next week because he will be back at school and she ‘needs a break’.

There’s no adequate emoji for my feelings on this.

vid36

Positives swabs up, I wonder what happened last week. It is such a mystery.

wirelessdude01

vid36 wrote: »

Positives swabs up, I wonder what happened last week. It is such a mystery.

Hmmmmm.

solerina

wirelessdude01 wrote: »

Primary here and not aware of any school at any level where an entire school has been mass tested.

I think that school that closed in Killorglin before Christmas was mass tested but that’s the only one I heard of and that was a massive outbreak...In Normas constituency too !!

Hurrache

hesaidshesaid wrote: »

Just to clarify this point, it has not always happened that whole classes have been tested as close contacts even from Infants - 2nd. The approach from Public Health - the people who make all the decisions about who gets tested - was inconsistent at best up to December.

Yeah, I wasn't saying it was the de facto course of action, I was correcting those who insisted it was wrong and that it didn't happen at all, which if course it does, as recently as when the juniors went back over the last 2 weeks.

penny piper

Considering the fact that case numbers are still extremely high ...I don't see why any school should re-open next week....
Remote education should continue....more traffic about ...more people ...it's absolutely ridculous of this government to get schools opened at all costs...no extra protection since january..and the vaccine situation is abismal....re opening the schools at this moment in time was a bad mistake....there must be a reason for cases not coming down...

SusanC10

Prof Philip Nolan is saying in the briefing that at the moment there are approx 100 Cases per day in Age 5-12 so Primary aged kids and approx 50 in Age 13-18 so Secondary age.

Given that the daily cases are 500-600 then that is 20-25% of all cases give or take.

(Unless I am misunderstanding as I am cooking at the same time)

Marty Bird

penny piper wrote: »

Considering the fact that case numbers are still extremely high ...I don't see why any school should re-open next week....
Remote education should continue....more traffic about ...more people ...it's absolutely ridculous of this government to get schools opened at all costs...no extra protection since january..and the vaccine situation is abismal....re opening the schools at this moment in time was a bad mistake....there must be a reason for cases not coming down...

I don’t think schools are to open at all costs, people have choices if they don’t feel it safe for their kids don’t send them in.

Same with staff if they feel it’s that dangerous don’t go into work. School is an extremely import part of society and should be open government are right in this incidence probably the only thing they’re right about.