Schools closed until March/April? (part 4) **Mod warning in OP 22/01**

am_zarathustra

Lux23 wrote: »

I think the problem is expecting people at the department level with no experience in public healthcare to come up with safe/clear guidelines for schools. No-one in the Department of Education actually has the expertise to do this, so they are afraid of their life of making a mistake, and I can't blame them. Health and Safety staff are really struggling too, as this is a completely new area for most of them.

Is there anybody in the Department that actually has these kinds of skills?

Yes, even ETBs have health and safety officers. Every school in the country has lab,s woodwork, metalworks etc.....these are all reasonably dangerous work environments when you take into account the fact you will have 20plus kids wandering the room. They have health and safety officers and would still prefer to leave it to schools.

Even regarding remote learning (and this should be their bread and butter), a circular could have been issued (these govern schools and other civil and public services), a circular is enforceable, it carries weight. They didn't do this, they issues a vague document with basically whatever your having written on it in many ways.

The Department have not been fit for purpose in years, they have very few serious academics, it's primarily unqualified civil servants with little or no interest in education who have cultivated a combative relationships with teachers and the unions at large. It would be great if some pressure for reform came out of this process but public pressure will be needed for that to happen.

Baggly

penny piper wrote: »

How do you expect people to improve things if you don't tell them....you are the parent responsible for your child ....let the school know...it's your failure as a parent imo....and it's not happening in all schools...

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History Queen

Just to note. Just because parents complain does not mean a complaint will be upheld. In the case discussed here of the 4th class teacher, the teacher was making daily contact (via email I think it was said) with the class as required by direction from the Department. The fact that the type of contact made was not to the liking of the parents/students/principal does not make it unacceptable in terms of what the Department set out. I'm not defending the specific case at all I'm just pointing out that dissatisfaction should be levelled with the Department who decided the parameters of the instructions they set out. That teacher complied regardless of whether people approve or not.

I'll give you another example. My sister in law raised an issue in her child's school because her neighbours children, in a different school, were getting two live zooms per day and her child was only getting a weekly one. The teacher kindly explained to my sister in law that because of the feedback from parents re survey from lockdown one it was discovered that many families were unable to commit to daily live lessons therefore a weekly social call with optional attendance was seen as fairer all round. My sister in law was very happy with the level of educational provision provided via recorded videos/apps and work set and feedback received, she only raised the issue as she thought what the other school were doing would benefit her children (she is a stay at home parent). She completely understood the teacher and school's rational when it was explained to her but was happy that she had had the discussion.

Sometimes parents aren't privy to the decision making process, they, quite rightly, are focused on their own child/children not the wider school community. This is why it is important to raise issues with the school. You may not get the result you want but when the rational is explained you may be more happy as a result or if not, be able to offer another solution or take your complaint further if need be. That's why we always encourage parents to talk to the school first.

Deeec

History Queen wrote: »

Just to note. Just because parents complain does not mean a complaint will be upheld. In the case discussed here of the 4th class teacher, the teacher was making daily contact (via email I think it was said) with the class as required by direction from the Department. The fact that the type of contact made was not to the liking of the parents/students/principal does not make it unacceptable in terms of what the Department set out. I'm not defending the specific case at all I'm just pointing out that dissatisfaction should be levelled with the Department who decided the parameters of the instructions they set out. That teacher complied regardless of whether people approve or not.

I'll give you another example. My sister in law raised an issue in her child's school because her neighbours children, in a different school, were getting two live zooms per day and her child was only getting a weekly one. The teacher kindly explained to my sister in law that because of the feedback from parents re survey from lockdown one it was discovered that many families were unable to commit to daily live lessons therefore a weekly social call with optional attendance was seen as fairer all round. My sister in law was very happy with the level of educational provision provided via recorded videos/apps and work set and feedback received, she only raised the issue as she thought what the other school were doing would benefit her children (she is a stay at home parent). She completely understood the teacher and school's rational when it was explained to her but was happy that she had had the discussion.

Sometimes parents aren't privy to the decision making process, they, quite rightly, are focused on their own child/children not the wider school community. This is why it is important to raise issues with the school. You may not get the result you want but when the rational is explained you may be more happy as a result or if not, be able to offer another solution or take your complaint further if need be. That's why we always encourage parents to talk to the school first.

Yep you hit the nail on the head here history queen. Fully agree with you. Just because you raise a valid issue doesnt mean anything can be done. In my case you are right the teacher in question did meet department requirements but she didnt do what other teachers in the school were doing. I also think the Principle was powerless to do anything about it. I dont know if there is any disciplinary procedures that can be followed by schools against teachers who didnt meet remote learning expectations. I expect there isnt anything as each teachers home situation is unique and the last year has been unprecedented. I get that no teacher was trained in college to offer remote learning and never expected to be teaching from home. It is just a pity that some kids lose out.

SusanC10

Random sample wrote: »

I think it's to do with the strain involved.

Was afraid it might be. Brazil or SA then not the UK variant ?

average_runner

Deeec wrote: »

Yep you hit the nail on the head here history queen. Fully agree with you. Just because you raise a valid issue doesnt mean anything can be done. In my case you are right the teacher in question did meet department requirements but she didnt do what other teachers in the school were doing. I also think the Principle was powerless to do anything about it. I dont know if there is any disciplinary procedures that can be followed by schools against teachers who didnt meet remote learning expectations. I expect there isnt anything as each teachers home situation is unique and the last year has been unprecedented. I get that no teacher was trained in college to offer remote learning and never expected to be teaching from home. It is just a pity that some kids lose out.

All the schools i know of, got training in the last 6 months for remote learning. Again it depends on the school, but the ones that go the extra yard made the effort.

Regarding the effort made by some teachers compare to others. It comes down to the quality of employee. Do they love their job or is it a means of living.
A person that loves their job will do anything in that job to help others, I see it my industry and plenty of other industries.
Some are 9-5 and won't work later as don't get paid for it, others will work beyond the hours for the love of the job helping their team out

LittleBrick

average_runner wrote: »

Regarding the effort made by some teachers compare to others. It comes down to the quality of employee. Do they love their job or is it a means of living.
A person that loves their job will do anything in that job to help others, I see it my industry and plenty of other industries.
Some are 9-5 and won't work later as don't get paid for it, others will work beyond the hours for the love of the job helping their team out

I wouldn't agree with this. Leadership play a huge role in employee motivation, contentment and dedication. Leadership throughout this entire pandemic has been absolutely shambolic, and has lead to many teachers becoming disenchanted with the profession.

am_zarathustra

LittleBrick wrote: »

I wouldn't agree with this. Leadership play a huge role in employee motivation, contentment and dedication. Leadership throughout this entire pandemic has been absolutely shambolic, and has lead to many teachers becoming disenchanted with the profession.

Absolutely. I'd see it myself with managements in different schools, some have really risen to the challenge, supported staff and were very proactive in having plans and contingencies in place. Others did nothing. But again, this is absolutely true in all walks of life. Not everyone takes pride in their work to the same degree. A good principal is everything, even a good deputy will keep people happy and working hard.

I'll be very interested in how the next 5 years of growth are dealt with at secondary. The lack of teaching staff is becoming chronic and I would hope that good principals and management teams will be shown to be doing a great job with retention of staff and that toxic environments end up being shown for what they are.

It's funny but I don't ever really see teachers look much beyond the principal as their boss. I'd say over half my staff couldn't tell you who the secretary general for education is. Lack of leadership from the department is not a new thing.

average_runner

LittleBrick wrote: »

I wouldn't agree with this. Leadership play a huge role in employee motivation, contentment and dedication. Leadership throughout this entire pandemic has been absolutely shambolic, and has lead to many teachers becoming disenchanted with the profession.

Every employee can be a leader. A teacher of more than 4 years experience should be able to make their own calls for their class.


A junior teacher I would understand.


If my team had to wait for me to make a decision, things would be so slow, they lead by example.

wirelessdude01

People on about leadership. Our ultimate education leader is Norma, let that sink in. Not exactly inspiring.

average_runner

wirelessdude01 wrote: »

People on about leadership. Our ultimate education leader is Norma, let that sink in. Not exactly inspiring.

I agree on that, but I don't depend on my CEO to lead for me. He doesn't even know what i do i would think

vid36

GP referrals increasing, positive swabs up, positivity rates rising, it is going to be one huge mess after Easter

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/health/coronavirus/six-classes-in-longford-school-sent-home-after-five-covid-19-cases-confirmed-1.4517907

Baggly

Baggly wrote: »

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RebelButtMunch

vid36 wrote: »

GP referrals increasing, positive swabs up, positivity rates rising, it is going to be one huge mess after Easter

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/health/coronavirus/six-classes-in-longford-school-sent-home-after-five-covid-19-cases-confirmed-1.4517907

No reference to GP's or positivity rates from GP's in that article , thanks for the signal to add you to my ignore list.

vid36

Belgium's Education Minister admits that schools are a source of infections and wants authorities to draw up a list of further mitigation methods.
It is sad so many people in our country are in denial about this problem. It reminds me of the Soviet authorities after Chernobyl.

https://www.brusselstimes.com/news/belgium-all-news/160981/coronavirus-education-ministers-to-draw-up-list-of-risk-mitigation-measures/

shtpEdthePlum

SusanC10 wrote: »

Was afraid it might be. Brazil or SA then not the UK variant ?

https://www.irishexaminer.com/news/munster/arid-40249040.html

There were two cases announced so far, with testing of the community underway. I know of an additional three positive cases in children linked to this outbreak and their parents are currently awaiting test results.

LittleBrick

average_runner wrote: »

I agree on that, but I don't depend on my CEO to lead for me. He doesn't even know what i do i would think

You probably wouldn't expect your CEO to make numerous statements that imply that teachers only look out for themselves, and not their students. You probably wouldn't expect your deputy CEO to call employees without disabilities "normal", again implying any employee is "abnormal".
There is a difference between a lack of leadership and bad leadership. Managers can only do so much when the CEO of a company refuses to see the fault or mistakes they are making, and refuses to listen to feedback from those working on the field.

average_runner

vid36 wrote: »

Belgium's Education Minister admits that schools are a source of infections and wants authorities to draw up a list of further mitigation methods.
It is sad so many people in our country are in denial about this problem. It reminds me of the Soviet authorities after Chernobyl.

https://www.brusselstimes.com/news/belgium-all-news/160981/coronavirus-education-ministers-to-draw-up-list-of-risk-mitigation-measures/

Good news is most of the over 70 will have their first vaccine by the time easter is over, so the virus will have little impact on most.


Sept comes the virus will be here but we be just living with it

Benimar

shtpEdthePlum wrote: »

https://www.irishexaminer.com/news/munster/arid-40249040.html

There were two cases announced so far, with testing of the community underway. I know of an additional three positive cases in children linked to this outbreak and their parents are currently awaiting test results.

The headline is mad. Community is 'shocked' that a building with 20+ people in close proximality for hours on end might lead to an outbreak!

solerina

average_runner wrote: »

All the schools i know of, got training in the last 6 months for remote learning. Again it depends on the school, but the ones that go the extra yard made the effort.

Regarding the effort made by some teachers compare to others. It comes down to the quality of employee. Do they love their job or is it a means of living.
A person that loves their job will do anything in that job to help others, I see it my industry and plenty of other industries.
Some are 9-5 and won't work later as don't get paid for it, others will work beyond the hours for the love of the job helping their team out

Maybe schools got training but the quality of the training was probably very varied.
For instance my principal arranged for a three hour online training session on Teams. The man giving it obviously knew Teams inside out but it was three hours I will never forget, he was flying through things many of which we will never need and at the end of it all I knew no more than I did at the start, yet the principal could tick the box that training was provided.
It was largely left up to each of us to figure it out for ourselves if the truth be told.

JDD

I'm basically saying this with my hands over my eyes and I'm reluctant to tempt fate but...

How likely is it that schools will close again after the Easter break? We saw how quickly infections rose over two weeks at Christmas. And while hospitality is not open this time, I do think people are just more fed up and decided that they are going to see friends and family. We may not see the spectacularly high jump in cases that we saw Christmas week, but what if, in three weeks time, we are back at 1500 cases. Will the schools open?

My nine year old will be absolutely devastated if it does happen. She has only had six days back, and has three more days to the Easter break.

average_runner

solerina wrote: »

Maybe schools got training but the quality of the training was probably very varied.
For instance my principal arranged for a three hour online training session on Teams. The man giving it obviously knew Teams inside out but it was three hours I will never forget, he was flying through things many of which we will never need and at the end of it all I knew no more than I did at the start, yet the principal could tick the box that training was provided.
It was largely left up to each of us to figure it out for ourselves if the truth be told.

The best way to learn about them is youtube. Youtube everything.


That guy was paid a fair bit but didn't care for his audience. Not sure if anyone tried to slow him down and he just ignore ye.


But youtube everything like that.

My kids teacher asked us for help as we work in IT and a few other people went to the school during lockdown to support teachers if they needed help.

average_runner

JDD wrote: »

I'm basically saying this with my hands over my eyes and I'm reluctant to tempt fate but...

How likely is it that schools will close again after the Easter break? We saw how quickly infections rose over two weeks at Christmas. And while hospitality is not open this time, I do think people are just more fed up and decided that they are going to see friends and family. We may not see the spectacularly high jump in cases that we saw Christmas week, but what if, in three weeks time, we are back at 1500 cases. Will the schools open?

My nine year old will be absolutely devastated if it does happen. She has only had six days back, and has three more days to the Easter break.

I think the government know they need to relax things, bring back outdoor sport, get rid of the 5k rule. Let people do outside sports. That will help

Rosita

JDD wrote: »

I'm basically saying this with my hands over my eyes and I'm reluctant to tempt fate but...

How likely is it that schools will close again after the Easter break? We saw how quickly infections rose over two weeks at Christmas. And while hospitality is not open this time, I do think people are just more fed up and decided that they are going to see friends and family. We may not see the spectacularly high jump in cases that we saw Christmas week, but what if, in three weeks time, we are back at 1500 cases. Will the schools open?

My nine year old will be absolutely devastated if it does happen. She has only had six days back, and has three more days to the Easter break.

Schools were open with in excess of 1500 cases before but with the new variant 1500 now might not be considered the same as 1500 in October. Hard to put a number on what might be a catalyst.

But I'd imagine the first reaction would be to not return those who have not already returned rather than close all schools again. But things would have to worsen considerably and quickly.

Theboinkmaster

JDD wrote: »

I'm basically saying this with my hands over my eyes and I'm reluctant to tempt fate but...

How likely is it that schools will close again after the Easter break? We saw how quickly infections rose over two weeks at Christmas. And while hospitality is not open this time, I do think people are just more fed up and decided that they are going to see friends and family. We may not see the spectacularly high jump in cases that we saw Christmas week, but what if, in three weeks time, we are back at 1500 cases. Will the schools open?

My nine year old will be absolutely devastated if it does happen. She has only had six days back, and has three more days to the Easter break.

I’d say zero chance schools will close again. Maybe the likes of construction and outdoor sports will be sacrificed but schools open are government #1 priority.

There’s no chance they’ll close again IMO.

What happened at Christmas won’t happen again, not even close - we have better weather and vaccinations on our side.

Locotastic

vid36 wrote: »

GP referrals increasing, positive swabs up, positivity rates rising, it is going to be one huge mess after Easter

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/health/coronavirus/six-classes-in-longford-school-sent-home-after-five-covid-19-cases-confirmed-1.4517907

Today's lower numbers might indicate otherwise.

byhookorbycrook

ThunbergsAreGo wrote: »

I expect someone who works in the Dept of Education to give guidelines on how Education should be completed through Distance Learning.

I would expect all schools to be using consistent systems
I would expect the Department to have purchased licences to said systems for all teachers
I would expect training to have been provided for all teachers

The DES had a year to sort some form of national platform that would be consistent across the country .Not done .

They didn’t provide any training of any sort . It was up to individual teachers to try to find training, on their own time and at their own cost .

“ Guidelines “ on remote learning were issued to secondary schools about ten days before the Christmas holidays. Like the primary ones they could be summed up as “ sort it out yourselves , we have no idea .”

Schools are paying for access to Seesaw/ Aladdin connect and similar themselves . And guess who ends up trying to plug the ever increasing holes in school budgets ( Hint- not the DES)

byhookorbycrook

average_runner wrote: »

All the schools i know of, got training in the last 6 months for remote learning. Again it depends on the school, but the ones that go the extra yard made the effort.

Regarding the effort made by some teachers compare to others. It comes down to the quality of employee. Do they love their job or is it a means of living.
A person that loves their job will do anything in that job to help others, I see it my industry and plenty of other industries.
Some are 9-5 and won't work later as don't get paid for it, others will work beyond the hours for the love of the job helping their team out

And yet, in a post elsewhere , a person is complaining that they are expected to work “ outside hours” and people are telling them that they are right .

I love my job, but between zooms all day , preparing videos and work for each group and correcting all of the work, many of my days went on until after ten each night and for a good part of each weekend .

byhookorbycrook

JDD wrote: »

I'm basically saying this with my hands over my eyes and I'm reluctant to tempt fate but...

How likely is it that schools will close again after the Easter break? We saw how quickly infections rose over two weeks at Christmas. And while hospitality is not open this time, I do think people are just more fed up and decided that they are going to see friends and family. We may not see the spectacularly high jump in cases that we saw Christmas week, but what if, in three weeks time, we are back at 1500 cases. Will the schools open?

My nine year old will be absolutely devastated if it does happen. She has only had six days back, and has three more days to the Easter break.

As a teacher , I know how she feels! Nothing can compare to face to face interaction. Children can be shy on Zoom with parents/siblings in the background and sometimes you just want to have a quiet whisper to an individual child to encourage them that you can’t do for everyone else to hear .


Prep and correcting for remote learning is endless . I was co-teacher for 2 other classes and they were getting 600 pieces of work per day back, all of which had to be gone through, correcting/re-drafting suggestions made , uploaded and then checking that the child understood . You can correct on a whole class basis when children are physically present and then give a quick scoot around to check in with everyone , which is easily 10 times faster than trying to do it remotely.

byhookorbycrook

Theboinkmaster wrote: »

I’d say zero chance schools will close again. Maybe the likes of construction and outdoor sports will be sacrificed but schools open are government #1 priority.

There’s no chance they’ll close again IMO.

What happened at Christmas won’t happen again, not even close - we have better weather and vaccinations on our side.

School staff are way down the vaccination lists so as they self isolate and/or fall ill, there aren’t substitutes to replace them. Schools are already sending classes home as they don’t have the staff . And there’s no vaccine for the under 18s yet .


Better weather means more interaction between households.
Schools will likely close on regional levels and once the Leaving Cert. is done , the schools may well close nationally.