Skirting - To foam or not to foam

StephenS147

Hi all,

I'm wondering if it's okay to solely fix skirting to walls with expanding foam or should screws be used also at 500mm intervals on a masonry wall or in the case of studs at stud c/c?

I've read that it's the best method but how would I go about holding the skirting in place while the foam cures if I go with foam on its own?

listermint

I've never used foam myself for this , used mastik products like gripfilla etc to bond. I've tacked in place with a finishing gun.

Idioteque

Personally I've never been happy when I've just used heavy weights to keep pressure on, I mean you can make up for it with caulk but I generally prefer to stick a few screws in to pull it tight at ends and centre in addition to weights - granted you've to then fill etc. so I'm usually doing it with non-painted wooden boards before decorating.

1874

Unless expanding foam says otherwise, Ive never heard it used as an adhesive, gripfill or similar, tec-7
Did hold a length of skirting in place with a concrete blocks wrapped in old towel, while the adhesive was curing.


A screw in a skirting board would look a bit off to me, I think an oval nail if to a stud would be ok, for a masonry nail, I might drill a small hole so it doesn't crack the board.

awec

1874 wrote: »

Unless expanding foam says otherwise, Ive never heard it used as an adhesive, gripfill or similar, tec-7
Did hold a length of skirting in place with a concrete blocks wrapped in old towel, while the adhesive was curing.


A screw in a skirting board would look a bit off to me, I think an oval nail if to a stud would be ok, for a masonry nail, I might drill a small hole so it doesn't crack the board.

Yea definitely don't screw it, it'll look stupid.

You can screw and fill them for sure.
Best way of your walls are bendy

Calahonda52

awec wrote: »

Yea definitely don't screw it, it'll look stupid.

What is stupid about a screw?

awec

Calahonda52 wrote: »

What is stupid about a screw?

1. Makes them unnecessarily more difficult to take off in future.
2. You're going to have to fill larger holes that will be harder to hide.

1874

Calahonda52 wrote: »

What is stupid about a screw?

It doesnt look nice, Id say looks amateurish

tabby aspreme

Will the skirting be painted

1874

1874 wrote: »

It doesnt look nice, Id say looks amateurish

Your hardly leave them exposed .
Much easier to remove if needeed.

StephenS147

Thanks for your replies. When I was replacing other skirting that a builder had fixed to a masonry wall and the nails were broken. They snapped due to the moisture in the wall. We don't have damp issues but that's what happened since the wall will have some form of moisture in it. So, I screwed the small section with rawl plugs and with foam behind and it hasn't budged since but removing it in the future if need be will be a bit if a PIA.

I was thinking of foaming and screwing to hold it while it cures and then removing the screws (for ease of future removal) and fill the holes with a 2 part epoxy filler. If foam can be used as an alternative to traditional dot and dab on plasterboard I thought it would hold skirting pretty well and have read it does a pretty good job.

I've a foam gun so I have more control than a regular can. I was thinking of laying two small beads along the length. I've tested foaming two boards together and it's incredibly strong so I believe the method above would work okay (I hope).

Skirting will be painted. It's pre primed mdf due to less shrinkage happening compared to regular timber.

tabby aspreme

OP have you thought of using Polyurethane glue instead of foam, similar product but much stronger

StephenS147

tabby aspreme wrote: »

OP have you thought of using Polyurethane glue instead of foam, similar product but much stronger

Have you any products that would be suitable? Thanks.

tabby aspreme

StephenS147 wrote: »

Have you any products that would be suitable? Thanks.

Most hardware shops stock polyurethane glue, it's not the easiest stuff to work with and it's open work time varies from 5-30 minutes , practice gluing with a few small bits first. I would always use screws / paslode nails on skirting, except with the vinyl covered MDF, which can't be filled or plugged easily

DublinDilbert

The best method of attachment will depend on the wall construction, flatness. Often depending on how the skirting is cut minimal fixings will be required.

I normally use tec7 or similar with a couple of light fixings.

Partition wall: oval nails into the stud.

Dot and dab: usual rawl plugs and screws, if the bottom of the walk is missing I use an express nail with a rawl plug in the center. Or bond screw on some 2x1 and attach skirting to that.

StephenS147

I've done a test piece with foam on two pieces of timber and good luck trying to pull them apart.



I lightly dampened each side and sprayed on small bead of foam and let sit for 5 mins. As those construction adhesives can skin over rather quickly I thought I'd test how the foam behaves after the 5 mins. I then lightly clapped the timbers for an hour. Removed the clamp and the timbers are welded together. So my plan of action is to lay two small beads (top and bottom) of skirting and fix temporarily to the wall with a timber piece the height of the skirting to pull it in with one screw every 600-800 (depending on where there is a bow in the wall) and then remove the screws after the hour. Bit labour intensive but I think I may as well test it out.

The great thing about foam is that it'll move with any movement that occurs.

I watched Robin Clevetts video on using grab adhesive and you have to be quite quick before the adhesive skins over (and it can fail) which is why I was looking for an alternative with longer working time but sets quick.

It's a good watch.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=16MgrG_vPnM

awec

Surely you don't want them to be impossible to remove without destroying them (and part of the wall) though?

StephenS147

awec wrote: »

Surely you don't want them to be impossible to remove without destroying them (and part of the wall) though?

In that Robin Clevett video some of the grab adhesives take the plasterboard right off. Some fail miserably too and pop right off the back of the MDF skirting which is what I'm using. It's the working time too where the adhesive can skin over and fail which has happened with other skirting done in the house by a builder. I went with 5 mins in my test but I'm sure that could be pushed to 10 which gives plenty of time to temporarily fix it. Plus it cures in an hour over some grab adhesives which can take 24 hours. I'll go with the risk and see. Perhaps I might go with one bead as it'll spread out once I screw it back with the timber piece above the skirting.

DublinDilbert

The place where the low expansion foams would be useful, would be where the bottom of the wall is damaged or not there, typically on block walls which are plastered or dot-dabed with board. Foam would work well here, provided you can hold the board level with the wall.

Lumen

Surely using these adhesives is going to create a monumental mess when the time comes to replace the skirting?

I have block walls and my skirting is held on with nails. A few seconds with a pry bar and they're off, cleanly (apart from a bit of plaster around some nails, which can be easily filled).

StephenS147

Silly me, foam can be cut. I'll try my test piece tomorrow.

I sure can't pry the two pieces apart even with wedging a chisel in between them.

So I'll get my long snap off olfa blade and cut in between the two and see. To do a tall skirting an old kitchen knife could work.

Lumen wrote: »

Surely using these adhesives is going to create a monumental mess when the time comes to replace the skirting?

I have block walls and my skirting is held on with nails. A few seconds with a pry bar and they're off, cleanly (apart from a bit of plaster around some nails, which can be easily filled).

How can you get a good fixing into existing block wall where they're nailed? Or do you have to fill the existing wall holes and refit, nailing into filler?

ShamNNspace

When fixing an old painted skirting that has been previously nailed to blockwork I allways pull the old nails out through the back of the skirting with a visegrip or cut them off leaving the front of the skirting undamaged. These days I use 50 x3.5 screws having predrilled the skirting these can be filled neatly, you can make the screwhole on the underside of that roundybit on the too of most moulded skirting boards the holes when sanded and filled will not be seen from a standing position. For pvc coated or say oak skirting I use screws sparingly in the same way and fill with wax filler (hafele do a nice set of wax in all different colours) I pin onto the timber studs and fill the same way on studded walls. Im not a big fan of foam or gripfill on skirting boards. They can create an awful mess when they're taken off, just my opinion from many years experience

StephenS147

ShamNNspace wrote: »

These days I use 50 x3.5 screws having predrilled the skirting these can be filled neatly..

How do you dig out all the filler without wreaking the head of the screw?

One method I was thinking of using was the trend plug cutter to plug the holes along with screws. So set the screw back so the plug could be drilled out later and plug it. I'm using 18mm MDF probably plenty of room to do this.

Trend SNAP/PC/A Snappy 4-Piece Countersink Drill Bit Set
https://smile.amazon.co.uk/dp/B00KWGHYVA

Lumen

StephenS147 wrote: »

How can you get a good fixing into existing block wall where they're nailed? Or do you have to fill the existing wall holes and refit, nailing into filler?

Nail in a different spot.

ShamNNspace

StephenS147 wrote: »

How do you dig out all the filler without wreaking the head of the screw?

One method I was thinking of using was the trend plug cutter to plug the holes along with screws. So set the screw back so the plug could be drilled out later and plug it. I'm using 18mm MDF probably plenty of room to do this.

Trend SNAP/PC/A Snappy 4-Piece Countersink Drill Bit Set
https://smile.amazon.co.uk/dp/B00KWGHYVA

Leave the head of the screw there break off the stem of the screw at the back of the skirting, back an forth with the vicegrip and itll break easily. The steel nails I grab with the vicegrip and pull them through the back of the skirting

StephenS147

ShamNNspace wrote: »

Leave the head of the screw there break off the stem of the screw at the back of the skirting

How do you get to that stage where the screw is pulled out of the rawl plug to break it?

ShamNNspace

Im probably putting you off here but another tip I use is put a screw around where a knot is in the wood if possible so its easily disguised. Those plugs are grand but make sure to put them in with the grain and match the wood as best you can if you use this method. I've seen the cure turn out worse than the disease in some places where those plugs are used (plugs too small, not with the grain, too much or wrong glue leaving an ugly black circle where the plugs have been used), this is only on finished work mind you, more scope if the plugs will be painted over

ShamNNspace

StephenS147 wrote: »

How do you get to that stage where the screw is pulled out of the rawl plug to break it?

The skirting would have to be completely off the wall, prise it off neatly

ShamNNspace

This is the lad I use to prise skirting off without damage

StephenS147

ShamNNspace wrote: »

Im probably putting you off here but another tip I use is put a screw around where a knot is in the wood if possible so its easily disguised. Those plugs are grand but make sure to put them in with the grain and match the wood as best you can if you use this method. I've seen the cure turn out worse than the disease in some places where those plugs are used (plugs too small, not with the grain, too much or wrong glue leaving an ugly black circle where the plugs have been used), this is only on finished work mind you, more scope if the plugs will be painted over

The skirting is going to be painted. It's pre primed MDF.

ShamNNspace wrote: »

This is the lad I use to prise skirting off without damage

Never had much luck pulling rawl plugs with the screws most of the way in. Pulls a lot of stuff with it.

---

If I had of known that this existed, then this is what I'd have done but it doesn't seem to be available many places. In NZ mainly as far as I can see.

I love the way he just bashes the skirting on like it's pub time. 😂

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aWKlC-CWWWs

fret_wimp2

Dont glue if its to drywall/plsaterboard. Removing our skirting was very tough and took lumps out of the plasterboard. a few wire nails at regular intervals would have been invisible, made removing them easy and would have left no damage.

Whatever glue was used on ours was very strong and i assume it would take plaster off a brick wall too.

StephenS147

fret_wimp2 wrote: »

Dont glue if its to drywall/plsaterboard. Removing our skirting was very tough and took lumps out of the plasterboard. a few wire nails at regular intervals would have been invisible, made removing them easy and would have left no damage.

Whatever glue was used on ours was very strong and i assume it would take plaster off a brick wall too.

I'll post back tomorrow after I test trying to cut the foam using my Olfa knife and blade. Those things can cut through anything. Sharpest blades known to man made from Japanese black steel.

https://www.amazon.co.uk/dp/B000LE3V74

oleras

Im all for doing a job as well as you can, but at the end of the day, this is skirting board...unless the dog is very critical, he will be the closest to inspect it...lash it on with steel nails.:D Inside corners ?...that what vases are for.

StephenS147

oleras wrote: »

Im all for doing a job as well as you can, but at the end of the day, this is skirting board...unless the dog is very critical, he will be the closest to inspect it...lash it on with steel nails.:D Inside corners ?...that what vases are for.

I get what you're saying, just looking to see if this foam method works.

Our dog can sniff out a lot of things but a bad skirting job is not one of them.

Spanishpoint

Screws worked for me very good during the last 5 years

pitterbrayn

You can screw and fill them for sure.
Best way of your walls are bendy

StephenS147

I didn't get those two pieces separated, even with the knife.

Oh well. It'll be many years before this skirting comes off again.

I cut this piece to size and found where the low spots were and marked where each fixing was needed. I found by using equal distances on our wall (which is not flat) then there were more gaps. Then pre drilled the skirting with a 6mm bit and lined it up to the wall on 2mm plastic spacers. Drilled 6mm hole for the red rawl plugs to depth, inserted the plugs and then dampened the skirting and the base of wall with a light must of water. Laid one continuous wavy bead of foam and pressed against wall. Then using offcuts of ply with a 6mm hole and 70mm screws, screwed the skirting back. Let sit over night (just to be safe) and removed the screws, countersunk and used 4.2x45mm screws and fixed.

If your walls are true then leaving the foam with the blocks for an hour would be okay. You also wouldn't need to put any screws back in so all you'd need to do is fill in the drill holes and not a countersunk one.

The skirting did hold perfectly but I added the screws back in just in case as our walls take a few detours. I'm very happy with foam and will be using it for the rest. Don't bother using it without a foam gun otherwise you'll get foam everywhere.

Two great videos on skirting from Robin Clevett (again). He's only fitting to studs and Thermalite blocks here but great to see how he tackles things.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KQZKc8PLV2A

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ixEN1dyx5FU

Here's some pics and a pic of the tools I used.

GreeBo

^
Maybe I'm being dim, but does screwing it in not defeat the point of using the foam?

Also presume that you arent doing the other walls? (Since you have used straight cuts at the ends...)

I would throw in an odd screw (like maybe 3 in the length you used) and caulk, of all the things in your house to need strength, skirting must be right at the bottom, its sitting on the floor and will be caulked/painted in.

StephenS147

GreeBo wrote: »

^
Maybe I'm being dim, but does screwing it in not defeat the point of using the foam?

Also presume that you arent doing the other walls? (Since you have used straight cuts at the ends...)

I would throw in an odd screw (like maybe 3 in the length you used) and caulk, of all the things in your house to need strength, skirting must be right at the bottom, its sitting on the floor and will be caulked/painted in.

It'll just help. Bit of foam and dovetail nailing would be a great solution for studs and lightweight block. But in this case, masonry and a bendy wall I went with sticking and screws.

The skirting is getting scribed. Mitres aren't meant to be used for inside corners. They can if your walls perfect.

Scribed corner. Skirting not fixed yet.



Skirting does need strength in some cases. Buildings move and are not straight esp older ones. Here's a job a builder of 30 years experience did. Grab adhesive which has failed and nails into blockwork (which have snapped). One of many jobs I need to tackle.

oleras

Bit of mastic that will be grand...:D

i do admire your work ethic though, fair play.

GreeBo

StephenS147 wrote: »

It'll just help. Bit of foam and dovetail nailing would be a great solution for studs and lightweight block. But in this case, masonry and a bendy wall I went with sticking and screws.

The skirting is getting scribed. Mitres aren't meant to be used for inside corners. They can if your walls perfect.

Skirting does need strength in some cases. Buildings move and are not straight esp older ones. Here's a job a builder of 30 years experience did. Grab adhesive which has failed and nails into blockwork (which have snapped). One of many jobs I need to tackle.

Foam works when you have large surface areas involved, I dont see it working to fix a stud to a wall. Its also very binary, its either fixed or not, whereas nails/screws are more linear, it could be loose.
I'd argue that this is not an example of strength required, looks more like the skirting was incorrectly sized or may have expanded.
If you had fixed that solidly in place, something was going to pop somewhere.

If the wall isn't straight then you have compromise somewhere, I'd rather it between the wall and skirting with caulk than the wall and floor with skewed tiles/carpet/timber against it.

StephenS147

GreeBo wrote: »

Foam works when you have large surface areas involved, I dont see it working to fix a stud to a wall. Its also very binary, its either fixed or not, whereas nails/screws are more linear, it could be loose.
I'd argue that this is not an example of strength required, looks more like the skirting was incorrectly sized or may have expanded.
If you had fixed that solidly in place, something was going to pop somewhere.

If the wall isn't straight then you have compromise somewhere, I'd rather it between the wall and skirting with caulk than the wall and floor with skewed tiles/carpet/timber against it.

In my test it worked extremely well. The trick it seems is to dampen each surface as per foam instructions.

Whatever nails he used they rusted and snapped and the grab adhesive failed. There's also a gap at the end towards the door so the skirting is sized fine.

That's the rear wall which is the worst. It's not noticeable until you stand in line with it. But there'll be furniture along it so no biggie.

GreeBo

StephenS147 wrote: »

In my test it worked extremely well. The trick it seems is to dampen each surface as per foam instructions.

To be fair, you tested sticking two small pieces of ply face on to each other, velcro would work just as well in that scenario.

Try foaming one of those pieces on end and see if it works out as well. I strongly suspect that it wont.

StephenS147 wrote: »

Whatever nails he used they rusted and snapped and the grab adhesive failed. There's also a gap at the end towards the door so the skirting is sized fine.

But if there is that much movement then anything is going to snap/pop/release, or the timber itself will crack. Something has to give if the wall and the skirting are expanding/moving independently.

StephenS147

GreeBo wrote: »

To be fair, you tested sticking two small pieces of ply face on to each other, velcro would work just as well in that scenario.

Try foaming one of those pieces on end and see if it works out as well. I strongly suspect that it wont.



But if there is that much movement then anything is going to snap/pop/release, or the timber itself will crack. Something has to give if the wall and the skirting are expanding/moving independently.

End to end? Why would I do that now when that's not what I'm doing.

It's a 1.5m run of skirting. Too short to result in what happened. Like I said the nails rusted and snapped and grab adhesive failed.

1874

Has the word "foam" come into use from some trademarked product (I dont think so), I wasn't going to say anything but it's getting repeated.
I see Soudal does do a foam that has adhesive properties, but Ive never described it or heard it used as such, typically Id have said expanding foam is used as a gap filler, not convinced this is exactly the use its for and Id have said in this case, use either an adhesive or a nail/screw, that looks like a fairly straight edge, doesn't appear to need both imo.
For the image where there was a gap over the top of the skirting, Id suggest some decorators caulk for gaps there rather than forcing a skirting to conform to the exact shape of any wall where it isn't perfectly flat.
Caulk can be painted, compared to silicons and looks better, but still remains somewhat flexible, compared to fillers.

I'm never that neat and tidy working, although I do recommend covering flooring/protecting it from tools and also masking to get neat clean edges.

StephenS147

1874 wrote: »

I see Soudal does do a foam that has adhesive properties, but Ive never described it or heard it used as such, typically Id have said expanding foam is used as a gap filler, not convinced this is exactly the use its for and Id have said in this case, use either an adhesive or a nail/screw,

It's pretty good. I've mentioned before it can be used for dot and dab. So it holds pretty well.

1874 wrote: »

that looks like a fairly straight edge, doesn't appear to need both imo.

I've only screwed at the lowest spots and didn't screw at every low spot their was. My intention is to caulk to top and paint.

1874 wrote: »

compared to silicons and looks better, but still remains somewhat flexible, compared to fillers.

I would never use a silicon. Some caulk with a profile tool.

1874 wrote: »

I'm never that neat and tidy working, although I do recommend covering flooring/protecting it from tools and also masking to get neat clean edges.

It's just a paint drop sheet but I'm carefuling.

GreeBo

StephenS147 wrote: »

End to end? Why would I do that now when that's not what I'm doing.

I didnt say end to end, I said one piece on end, to simulate using it to attach a stud as you suggested.

It's a 1.5m run of skirting. Too short to result in what happened. Like I said the nails rusted and snapped and grab adhesive failed.

Must have been under fierce pressure to snap nails, even if they were rusty?
If the adhesive failed it was either left to skin over or the substrate was wet I would guess?

StephenS147

GreeBo wrote: »

I didnt say end to end, I said one piece on end, to simulate using it to attach a stud as you suggested.

Sorry not sure what you mean. On end? Stud or skirting?

GreeBo wrote: »

Must have been under fierce pressure to snap nails, even if they were rusty?
If the adhesive failed it was either left to skin over or the substrate was wet I would guess?

A piece of the same oak skirting in the kitchen done this and that wall was relatively straight. Over time a gap appeared and dirt got in behind most nails broke, adhesive gave in and it got worse and worse until I fixed it with rawl plugs grab adhesive and screws (hasn't budged in 2 years since). Not letting the adhesive skin over is a major factor I suppose which is why I was looking for an alternative that has a longer working time.

GreeBo

1874 wrote: »

Has the word "foam" come into use from some trademarked product (I dont think so), I wasn't going to say anything but it's getting repeated.
I see Soudal does do a foam that has adhesive properties, but Ive never described it or heard it used as such, typically Id have said expanding foam is used as a gap filler

There are certainly various types of foam, gap fillers, low expansion adhesives and everything in between.

I would only ever use foam in the scenario where the plasterboarder was scabby and I wanted some level of support behind the bottom of the skirting coupled with closing up the wind tunnel than can be there.

It wouldnt be structural but would help prevent the skirting from levering against the fixings if/when it got bashed by a hoover for example. Its easier than trying to fix bits of timber or plasterboard offcuts onto the studs.

Sheathing is often fixed with foam these days, but its low/zero expansion and more akin to a spray adhesive imo, its not trying to fill any gaps.

TimHorton

https://youtu.be/WPR08TlSLBI?t=102 Skillbuilder video using expanding foam !