The way forward for LC2021

Mardy Bum

Bobtheman wrote: »

If they can do an in school exam in May why the hell can't they do the leaving??

Different liabilities. SEC are not involved. No outside candidates. Also huge financial savings will accrue.

Str8outtaWuhan

Mardy Bum wrote: »

Answer due next week following the Cabinet meeting. I imagine the English system will be copied. In school exams in May and continuous assessment used as metrics.

Isn't there a legal requirement of ~167 days of teaching , how will DES get around that?

km79

The subgroup of the Advisory Group of stakeholders on planning for the state examinations 2021 held a further online meeting today, Tuesday 2 February.

The meeting was attended by the Minister for Education, Norma Foley TD.

The subgroup includes representatives of students, parents, teachers, school leadership and management bodies, the State Examinations Commission (SEC) and the Department of Education. The subgroup was formed to consider in greater depth issues relating to planning towards the 2021 examinations. The Department of Department of Further and Higher Education, Research, Innovation and Science was also represented.

Today’s meeting considered the assessment arrangements for the 2021 Junior Cycle and Leaving Certificate. This included exploration of a number of options for the Leaving Certificate, which sought to take account of the impact of school closures on allowing the examinations to be run in as close a manner as in a normal year.

The Minister thanked the members of the subgroup for their continuing work and ongoing engagement in the efforts to plan for the examinations in 2021.

A further meeting of the subgroup is planned for later this week.


“In as close a manner as a normal year “

deiseindublin

Mardy Bum wrote: »

Also huge financial savings will accrue.

I think that's the bottom line. I wonder has anyone done an FOI request on the savings in 2020?

Mrsmum

I asked my son earlier where were they on the course. He said more or less finished with Irish and Music according to his teachers. Four chapters in Maths to do, two poets to do in English and working big time at creative writing at the moment, Biology teacher says his class are way ahead of her other class but tons of course still to do, same Geography. That's mightn't be the full picture but it's where he thinks they are. Would that be kindof the norm or are they in good shape/bad shape ? These are honours subjects.

History Queen

Mrsmum wrote: »

I asked my son earlier where were they on the course. He said more or less finished with Irish and Music according to his teachers. Four chapters in Maths to do, two poets to do in English and working big time at creative writing at the moment, Biology teacher says his class are way ahead of her other class but tons of course still to do, same Geography. That's mightn't be the full picture but it's where he thinks they are. Would that be kindof the norm or are they in good shape/bad shape ? These are honours subjects.

Regarding English that's more or less where I'd be with a class this time of year during normal times. I can't speak for the other subjects.

am_zarathustra

Mrsmum wrote: »

I asked my son earlier where were they on the course. He said more or less finished with Irish and Music according to his teachers. Four chapters in Maths to do, two poets to do in English and working big time at creative writing at the moment, Biology teacher says his class are way ahead of her other class but tons of course still to do, same Geography. That's mightn't be the full picture but it's where he thinks they are. Would that be kindof the norm or are they in good shape/bad shape ? These are honours subjects.

There or thereabouts, I teach two of those subjects to LC higher level. I will say I cut parts of the course, orbam doing them in a very basic way given the changes to options on the paper. Mine would be very unlucky with the way the paper fell to not be able to answer a full set of questions already, even without the next few months. Bio and Geog courses won't need to be finished with the way the changes have effected the paper

Maths is trickier, you could get stung picking and choosing so that course will have to be finished, somehow.... But I once got a class into 6th year who'd done no HL and we managed to do the course at breakneck speed in one year, not ideal but they did pretty well.

Treppen

Mrsmum wrote: »

I asked my son earlier where were they on the course. He said more or less finished with Irish and Music according to his teachers. Four chapters in Maths to do, two poets to do in English and working big time at creative writing at the moment, Biology teacher says his class are way ahead of her other class but tons of course still to do, same Geography. That's mightn't be the full picture but it's where he thinks they are. Would that be kindof the norm or are they in good shape/bad shape ? These are honours subjects.

If he's doing music and everything 'done' tell him to keep handing up Q1 compositions, that's usually the decider between H1 and H2.

PoolDude

Question: Are teachers being actively consulted here by the unions?

I'm seeing a number of teachers feeling they are not being consulted.

Mrsmum

Treppen wrote: »

If he's doing music and everything 'done' tell him to keep handing up Q1 compositions, that's usually the decider between H1 and H2.

I have to admit I thought Music would be an easier subject and he definately thought it would be a walk in the park. Turns out that's not the case ! I'll pass on your tip, tks.

History Queen

PoolDude wrote: »

Question: Are teachers being actively consulted here by the unions?

I'm seeing a number of teachers feeling they are not being consulted.

Well branch meetings and committees are where consultation would most often happen in my union so I suppose it depends how active you are. Our staff rep good to update staff of what hapoens at branch meetings too if people didn't attend.

Edit:sorry just reread I think that came across as condescending, not what I intended! I just meant I don't think individual members are being contacted or anything but that if you are involved in your union you might be more in the know than those that aren't.

Wombatman

km79 wrote: »

........

The subgroup includes representatives of students, parents, teachers, school leadership and management bodies, the State Examinations Commission (SEC) and the Department of Education.

........

We pretty much know the students union is calling for choice, but does anyone know what position the parents group is taking?

Fred Cryton

why are they so afraid of an IQ test or an aptitude test (such as GMAT) which tests ability at English or Math and can't really be studied for.

Could it be because it will reveal the truth that fluid intelligence is fundamentally genetically determined and education after a certain point is really just messing around the edges. More book reading won't make one smarter i'm afraid.

PoolDude

History Queen wrote: »

Well branch meetings and committees are where consultation would most often happen in my union so I suppose it depends how active you are. Our staff rep good to update staff of what hapoens at branch meetings too if people didn't attend.

Edit: sorry just reread I think that came across as condescending, not what I intended! I just menat I don't think individual members are being contacted or anything but that if you are involved in your union you might be more in the know than those that aren't.

Don't worry it came across fine - I was curious as I'm hearing teachers saying the Unions are not representing their view and they've not had much consultation on this topic. Interestingly, just now I was sent the below link and it also calls out that teachers suggesting an alternative approach to term time 'were met with a deafening silence from education chiefs and unions last night'.

Maybe there's nothing in it but it (Unions not listening to Teachers) seems to be popping up a bit in the last few days

https://extra.ie/2021/02/03/news/irish-news/teachers-early-easter-holidays

indolent

Fred Cryton wrote: »

Could it be because it will reveal the truth that fluid intelligence is fundamentally genetically determined and education after a certain point is really just messing around the edges. More book reading won't make one smarter i'm afraid.

Maybe because, assuming a basic level of literacy and numeracy, aptitude alone will not get you through a college degree.

The leaving cert is fair insofar as if you do the work you're rewarded. Reading is an integral part of many courses. The best doctors, teachers etc. are rarely the most intelligent but rather the most dedicated, passionate. You haven't a clue tbh.

Treppen

Fred Cryton wrote: »

why are they so afraid of an IQ test or an aptitude test (such as GMAT) which tests ability at English or Math and can't really be studied for.

Could it be because it will reveal the truth that fluid intelligence is fundamentally genetically determined and education after a certain point is really just messing around the edges. More book reading won't make one smarter i'm afraid.

Aptitude doesn't measure Attainment.

If you think learning is "book reading" then you have to ask who is doing the messing around the edges on the thread

Treppen

PoolDude wrote: »

Don't worry it came across fine - I was curious as I'm hearing teachers saying the Unions are not representing their view and they've not had much consultation on this topic. Interestingly, just now I was sent the below link and it also calls out that teachers suggesting an alternative approach to term time 'were met with a deafening silence from education chiefs and unions last night'.

Maybe there's nothing in it but it (Unions not listening to Teachers) seems to be popping up a bit in the last few days

https://extra.ie/2021/02/03/news/irish-news/teachers-early-easter-holidays

Ignore that.
Unions are the teachers, so there's a process to go through if you want your voice heard, rather than ranting on vft etc.
ASTI sent us out surveys last week. And have consistently surveyd members.

Rosita

Fred Cryton wrote: »

why are they so afraid of an IQ test or an aptitude test (such as GMAT) which tests ability at English or Math and can't really be studied for.

Could it be because it will reveal the truth that fluid intelligence is fundamentally genetically determined and education after a certain point is really just messing around the edges. More book reading won't make one smarter i'm afraid.

This misses the point spectacularly by conflating education and intelligence. School and the LC reflects the former and the multiple layers involved such as aptitude, application, attention-span, socialisation, etc.

Not ever sure about anything which attempts to measure intelligence in the abstract. I would have high verbal ability but that has come though specific aspects of my education. Doesn't necessarily make me more 'intelligent' than the next person nor more able in the context of a specific course/career. To my mind intelligence is quite contextual - one person can be brilliant at certain things but brutal at others. Education assessments say far more. And knowledge appears more useful and definable than intelligence, though the latter is rhetorically very attractive to some especially if they can create the illusion that they have it in spades themselves.

Wombatman

Journal.ie Poll

Poll: Should Leaving Cert students be given the option of sitting the exams or taking calculated grades?

https://www.thejournal.ie/leaving-cert-poll-4-5343442-Feb2021/

Bobtheman

PoolDude wrote: »

Question: Are teachers being actively consulted here by the unions?

I'm seeing a number of teachers feeling they are not being consulted.

No consultation but I'd say teachers being teachers they are giving their opinions.
I presume whenever the proposal comes out we might be asked.
Personally I'm against hybrids. I'm for either exams in July or predicted grades but not a mix.
I see no reason why the exam can't happen in July with further adjustments to the paper. None

Bobtheman

Wombatman wrote: »

Journal.ie Poll

Poll: Should Leaving Cert students be given the option of sitting the exams or taking calculated grades?

https://www.thejournal.ie/leaving-cert-poll-4-5343442-Feb2021/

A poll of the common man. Yeah let's do policy by opinion polls

Wombatman

Bobtheman wrote: »

A poll of the common man. Yeah let's do policy by opinion polls

Elections are glorified opinion polls don't you know.

French Toast

Wombatman wrote: »

Journal.ie Poll

Poll: Should Leaving Cert students be given the option of sitting the exams or taking calculated grades?

https://www.thejournal.ie/leaving-cert-poll-4-5343442-Feb2021/

Very few calling for predicated grades alone.

PoolDude

French Toast wrote: »

Very few calling for predicated grades alone.

Yet it’s going to be close to the ISSU poll of 80% wanting an alternative

Wombatman

French Toast wrote: »

Very few calling for predicated grades alone.

Yeah. I guess people would see it as unfair seeing as they had the choice to mix and match last year.

Bobtheman

Wombatman wrote: »

Yeah. I guess people would see it as unfair seeing as they had the choice to mix and match last year.

You mean we stop teaching and giving them a predicted grade now with the option of an exam in November?

Bobtheman

The only model for PG is to allow a few assessments and then end teaching. However how these assessments would work is beyond me.

Rosita

Bobtheman wrote: »

The only model for PG is to allow a few assessments and then end teaching. However how these assessments would work is beyond me.

Last year when predicted grades were used in-school summer and christmas exams were considered admissible and relevant even though every school would have had their own.

Presumably the 'few assessments' could be three in-class exams agreed across subject departments and overseen (to the extent that they can really oversee them) by Principals. They could have as much validity as any normal house exams and would certainly encourage LCs to toe the line to the end knowing that that their predicted grade revolved around them.

No doubt there'd be subject variations which would provide challenges but I think as a broad concept it is feasible. Like with most things much depends on when we get back to school. Would be hard to have three if not back in early March and whether orals/practicals etc. have been cancelled which it is increasingly looking like they'll have to be since we have no examiners appointed.

Smacruairi

The catch 22. Harder working schools who want to do it right will come up with systems that will make it harder to cheat, and mark harder. This will lower the students results in comparison to lazier schools who will just throw any grade at the problem and call it a day. These grades might be the same or higher then the previous groups grades, and then you'll have parents wondering why the hard school didn't just do the easy thing.

Literally no way to win this one.

Mardy Bum

Smacruairi wrote: »

The catch 22. Harder working schools who want to do it right will come up with systems that will make it harder to cheat, and mark harder. This will lower the students results in comparison to lazier schools who will just throw any grade at the problem and call it a day. These grades might be the same or higher then the previous groups grades, and then you'll have parents wondering why the hard school didn't just do the easy thing.

Literally no way to win this one.

This is the main problem that has not been mentioned at all in the media. Some schools benefited hugely from Calculated Grades and then used them as advertising.

carr62

I'm sure they did, Mardy Bum. But do parents take much notice of a sprinkling of good results? My kids go to a DEIS school, and when they were looking for a secondary school, we often saw claims from DEIS schools that they had students achieve >500 points in the Leaving. We felt those claims said more about the individual student than the school. Now, a school that had a high percentage of students consistantly getting those marks is a different thing entirely. As it turned out, we picked the school that the kids felt most comfortable in. It was far from being the most high achieving school we visited, but we felt it was the happiest.

Smacruairi

Carr, it depends obviously, but look at the twitter feeds of schools around exam results time, that will answer your question. Schools are quasi businesses now, you gotta keep your numbers up, but also by being "better" than the school down the road you automatically half the problems you get with parents and kids who would tell you how they would run the place better.

carr62

I guess so, Smacruairi. We are in a very rural area, and maybe it's different here than for city schools. Here, people know the better performing schools and many will travel to them. I honestly don't think many would change their mind about sending their kids to the convent or CBS because the community college got 3 kids over the 500 point mark last year, but guess I could be wrong. Seems to me that schools get a " name", and it would take more than a year of predicted grades to change that in parents' minds.

Smacruairi

We already had 3 kids jump to the institute as soon as we went into Lockdown as they felt their online provision might be better. Certain parents will take every action to seemingly improve results for their kids, not that I can blame them. I wouldn't take any "name" for granted in our area.

indolent

Predicated grades based on something like JC results would remove any ambiguity around this or cries of unfairness and favoritism. It is far from ideal but they would retain the option of sitting the LC.
Why isn't this being considered ? There is literally nothing else to go on.

carr62

Do we know when they are going to announce what the arrangements for the Leaving Cert are? Is this a wild notion, but would it be just as easy to let them all in to college to do their preferred course? Assuming they might still be online, would it matter how many were taking the course, and I assume those not able for it would simply drop out after failing exams. Probably fraught with problems, just an idea.

Mardy Bum

indolent wrote: »

Predicated grades based on something like JC results would remove any ambiguity around this or cries of unfairness and favoritism. It is far from ideal but they would retain the option of sitting the LC.
Why isn't this being considered ? There is literally nothing else to go on.

JC results are included in the algorithm.

rainbowtrout

carr62 wrote: »

Do we know when they are going to announce what the arrangements for the Leaving Cert are? Is this a wild notion, but would it be just as easy to let them all in to college to do their preferred course? Assuming they might still be online, would it matter how many were taking the course, and I assume those not able for it would simply drop out after failing exams. Probably fraught with problems, just an idea.

Because you'd have thousands signing up for the likes of medicine and dentistry which don't have enough space or resources to cater for unlimited students. Also I suspect it would probably destroy ITs. Like if you can sign up for any course you want, then you'll just have everyone going 'Sure I may as well go to Trinity' or something like that.

If you were to leave everyone in, you would have an astronomical failure rate to cut the numbers back for second year and all of those students would be trying to get back into the system the following year. Colleges just can't cope with those wide swings.

carr62

Absolutely see your point rainbow trout. I think I typed before I really thought!

shesty

Well on the other side of that question, DO we have any idea when they are going announce LC plans? Because it feels like the rest of us aren't going to hear a thing until LCs have been sorted.Seems like the other 5 secondary school years, and all the primary school years just have to sit and wait until the LC wrangling is over and then we might be in line to get some idea of a return plan.

I am at the end of my tether here with the working/schooling/parenting thing, kids are so in need of their normality back.We desperately need some idea of how much longer this has to go on for, before we crack. (Sorry, it has been a very long day)

PoolDude

rainbowtrout wrote: »

Because you'd have thousands signing up for the likes of medicine and dentistry which don't have enough space or resources to cater for unlimited students. Also I suspect it would probably destroy ITs. Like if you can sign up for any course you want, then you'll just have everyone going 'Sure I may as well go to Trinity' or something like that.

If you were to leave everyone in, you would have an astronomical failure rate to cut the numbers back for second year and all of those students would be trying to get back into the system the following year. Colleges just can't cope with those wide swings.

They can’t apply for restricted courses now the deadline is gone I think so that rules out everyone applying for medicine etc.

Also given the deadline has gone maybe there is a way to limit changes if it was open access or predicted grades

rainbowtrout

PoolDude wrote: »

They can’t apply for restricted courses now the deadline is gone I think so that rules out everyone applying for medicine etc.

Also given the deadline has gone maybe there is a way to limit changes if it was open access or predicted grades

It might rule out a small number of courses but there would still be a pile in to other courses, e.g. dentistry, veterinary.

It wouldn't eliminate issues like that or a lopsided application to universities over ITs, and 78,000 people have applied to the CAO this year. There aren't enough places for everyone.

deiseindublin

How many college places are there I wonder, for that 78k? Did I see somewhere, one of the papers, that they reckon with extra places released, there would only be a 1000 place shortage?

am_zarathustra

PoolDude wrote: »

They can’t apply for restricted courses now the deadline is gone I think so that rules out everyone applying for medicine etc.

Also given the deadline has gone maybe there is a way to limit changes if it was open access or predicted grades

Colleges in ireland have dreadful staff to student ratios, hockies us in the international ranking every year so adding a rake of students is not really an option, nor are the college's obliged to fix a problem the department caused by not having multiple contingencies in place. Veterinary would be inundated too

It's also taboo on the modern education system but there is aptitude to consider, simple things like memory matter a huge amount in medicine, the sciences, engineering etc in understanding conceptual frameworks, our short term memories are so limited that we depend on the schemas stored in our long term memories to allow any real depth or critical understanding.......you should test these skills before allowing someone to enter these courses

I'm not saying you need 625 points to be a doctor but I believe someone with the aptitude and application to do that is probably better placed to succeed than someone with 450 points. I think someone with a high honour in HL maths, physics and maths with, by and large, make a better engineer than someone without.

.....before everyone starts with the straw man, yes there are exceptions to this but the college's can only educate a certain number every year....it's expensive to the taxpayer....it's in everyone's interest for us the pick the people most likely to succeed

Mrsmum

I think there are many variables. Some students who get very high points have been really hothoused, special schools, grinds, grinds and more grinds and what not. Stripped back without the extra help they may not be as smart as a student who missed out on a place on the same high level course and the former student may end up dropping out. Or a student who absolutely killed themselves for the LC year may find, and this I am familiar with, that even though they got the place on the course with loads of points to spare, it's just too difficult for them because slogging your behind off in the LC doesn't always translate into the natural appitude for a particular course.

Mardy Bum

am_zarathustra wrote: »

Colleges in ireland have dreadful staff to student ratios, hockies us in the international ranking every year so adding a rake of students is not really an option, nor are the college's obliged to fix a problem the department caused by not having multiple contingencies in place. Veterinary would be inundated too

It's also taboo on the modern education system but there is aptitude to consider, simple things like memory matter a huge amount in medicine, the sciences, engineering etc in understanding conceptual frameworks, our short term memories are so limited that we depend on the schemas stored in our long term memories to allow any real depth or critical understanding.......you should test these skills before allowing someone to enter these courses

I'm not saying you need 625 points to be a doctor but I believe someone with the aptitude and application to do that is probably better placed to succeed than someone with 450 points. I think someone with a high honour in HL maths, physics and maths with, by and large, make a better engineer than someone without.

.....before everyone starts with the straw man, yes there are exceptions to this but the college's can only educate a certain number every year....it's expensive to the taxpayer....it's in everyone's interest for us the pick the people most likely to succeed

Memory is the foundation of learning. This is a fact. There are people with very limited working memory compared with others who will struggle with concepts unless the curriculum has been sequenced extraordinarily well.

carr62

So, given all these very reasonable points, what do people think is going to be the most likely outcome for Leaving Cert 2021?

rainbowtrout

Mrsmum wrote: »

I think there are many variables. Some students who get very high points have been really hothoused, special schools, grinds, grinds and more grinds and what not. Stripped back without the extra help they may not be as smart as a student who missed out on a place on the same high level course and the former student may end up dropping out. Or a student who absolutely killed themselves for the LC year may find, and this I am familiar with, that even though they got the place on the course with loads of points to spare, it's just too difficult for them because slogging your behind off in the LC doesn't always translate into the natural appitude for a particular course.

Yes, but you can apply that at all levels of achievement. Some get the 600 points without grinds, grind schools etc. Some enter high points courses and discover that it's not a career they want to pursue, plenty of people find that in the lower points courses too, but there isn't as much of a story made about that.

am_zarathustra

Mrsmum wrote: »

I think there are many variables. Some students who get very high points have been really hothoused, special schools, grinds, grinds and more grinds and what not. Stripped back without the extra help they may not be as smart as a student who missed out on a place on the same high level course and the former student may end up dropping out. Or a student who absolutely killed themselves for the LC year may find, and this I am familiar with, that even though they got the place on the course with loads of points to spare, it's just too difficult for them because slogging your behind off in the LC doesn't always translate into the natural appitude for a particular course.

But by and large a student with a large amount of points, with the caveat i would like, of it being in related subjects will be more lockly to succeed than one who doesn't. It's a numbers game, we play numbers with medication, roads, schools, education, prisons, sentencing, ......laws and regulations are not made for individuals nor can a system designed for college entry be based on exceptions to the rule.

I've also known a lot of parents pay a hell of a lot of money to get their kids 400 points in the best school, with grinds in every subject. A good school and grinds won't always translate to exceptional points, it's just more likely too, just like the kid with excellent grades is more likely to succeed in a college course.

The real issue with the private schools is they make every kid go to college, even those in the lower quartile who are probably not suited. These kids would be served but a different type of focus. But their parents paid me ear bleeding money to keep the kids in HL maths to scrape a pass.

But regardless, the majority of students in Ireland and neither in private schools or DEIS, they are in normal schools where you will need drive and ability to get you to actuary or vetinary

Mrsmum

rainbowtrout wrote: »

Yes, but you can apply that at all levels of achievement. Some get the 600 points without grinds, grind schools etc. Some enter high points courses and discover that it's not a career they want to pursue, plenty of people find that in the lower points courses too, but there isn't as much of a story made about that.

Of course, I wouldn't dispute any of that but it doesn't make what I have said any less true.