The way forward for LC2021

rainbowtrout

Mrsmum wrote: »

Of course, I wouldn't dispute any of that but it doesn't make what I have said any less true.

But what do you propose as a solution? Students getting the high points do have generally good academic ability. You generally don't have 300 points students turning into 550 points students with all the grinds in the world. There is a limit to a student's ability.

Mrsmum

am_zarathustra wrote: »

But by and large a student with a large amount of points, with the caveat i would like, of it being in related subjects will be more lockly to succeed than one who doesn't. It's a numbers game, we play numbers with medication, roads, schools, education, prisons, sentencing, ......laws and regulations are not made for individuals nor can a system designed for college entry be based on exceptions to the rule.

I've also known a lot of parents pay a hell of a lot of money to get their kids 400 points in the best school, with grinds in every subject. A good school and grinds won't always translate to exceptional points, it's just more likely too, just like the kid with excellent grades is more likely to succeed in a college course.

The real issue with the private schools is they make every kid go to college, even those in the lower quartile who are probably not suited. These kids would be served but a different type of focus. But their parents paid me ear bleeding money to keep the kids in HL maths to scrape a pass.

But regardless, the majority of students in Ireland and neither in private schools or DEIS, they are in normal schools where you will need drive and ability to get you to actuary or vetinary

Again I wouldn't disagree with any of that but I do think we are sort of slaves to thinking those who get the highest points are the brightest and so deserve the high class courses when often it's the highly advantaged combined with being reasonably clever that get into the highest courses. I mean of course you must have reasonable intelligence. But even in your average schools, some children, my own included, are sent off to the Gaeltacht every year and they don't even see that as an advantage but it is. It's all adding to those extra points to get into a college course where Irish is neither here nor there but made the difference. That,'s just an example of how I don't think it's straightforward that those with the highest points are necessarily the brightest. And many of them drop out when they meet the truly brilliant and realise they have overreached. Of course people lower down the scale drop out too but they are not the topic of conversation here. Anyway it's not an all or nothing, just another perspective.

rainbowtrout

Mrsmum wrote: »

Again I wouldn't disagree with any of that but I do think we are sort of slaves to thinking those who get the highest points are the brightest and so deserve the high class courses when often it's the advantaged combined with being reasonably clever that get into the highest courses. I mean of course you must have reasonable intelligence. But even in your average schools, some children, my own included, are sent off to the Gaeltacht every year and they don't even see that as an advantage but it is. It's all adding to those extra points to get into a college course where Irish is neither here nor there but made the difference. That,'s just an example of how I don't think it's straightforward that those with the highest points are necessarily the brightest. And many of them drop out when they meet the truly brilliant and realise they have overreached. Of course people lower down the scale drop out too but they are not the topic of conversation here. Anyway it's not an all or nothing, just another perspective.

What is that supposed to even mean???

People don't drop out of college because 'other people are truly brilliant'. They drop out because they don't like the course, are not able for the course, or in some cases have other issues in their personal lives that mean staying on the course is not possible.


There will always be advantage and disadvantage in life. Parents will use the resources available to them to help their children if they can. That will never change. It doesn't mean that those students aren't deserving of a place in college. They still sit the same exams at the end of the day, and are graded anonymously by examiners who don't know them.

Mardy Bum

Mrsmum wrote: »

Again I wouldn't disagree with any of that but I do think we are sort of slaves to thinking those who get the highest points are the brightest and so deserve the high class courses when often it's the highly advantaged combined with being reasonably clever that get into the highest courses. I mean of course you must have reasonable intelligence. But even in your average schools, some children, my own included, are sent off to the Gaeltacht every year and they don't even see that as an advantage but it is. It's all adding to those extra points to get into a college course where Irish is neither here nor there but made the difference. That,'s just an example of how I don't think it's straightforward that those with the highest points are necessarily the brightest. And many of them drop out when they meet the truly brilliant and realise they have overreached. Of course people lower down the scale drop out too but they are not the topic of conversation here. Anyway it's not an all or nothing, just another perspective.

Those with high points are far less likely to drop out when compared with others. Aine Hyland has published on this .

PoolDude

The problem from my perspective is actually when they get to the workforce. I see graduates who got these big points numbers that can regurgitate anything but can’t communicate, aren’t the best team players and have less basic common sense or logic. Not all but some and more importantly demonstrate more privilege and less drive for results.

I work in a major multinational and engage with others in other multinationals to small business to entrepreneurs, across the spectrum. I’d suggest more of the senior execs I meet have come from ‘normal’ schools and worked really hard to get their college place than those that flew through with 600 points regurgitating texts. I think it comes back to the individual and their personal drive than any of those other factors

r93kaey5p2izun

Mrsmum wrote: »

And many of them drop out when they meet the truly brilliant and realise they have overreached. Of course people lower down the scale drop out too but they are not the topic of conversation here. Anyway it's not an all or nothing, just another perspective.

No, the main predictor of third level completion is CAO points. The lowest dropout rates are in the high point courses. There's plenty of research on this. Other factors, such as gender and course content play a role, and performance in Maths and English at LC is particularly important, even in courses with minimal use of these subjects.

Of course, the relative performance of individuals from a very disadvantaged background must be considered in context, and evidence shows disadvantaged students who do access high points courses, even through the likes of HEAR, perform very well. But overall high points strongly predicts success at third level. Students from private schools are also most likely to stay the course. Middle class high points students dropping out because they are have overachieved due to all their advantages, is just not a phenomenon of any note.

Treppen

I think the focus is very much on the linking of subject learning to points to college courses.
But we should also think backwards too.
For secondary teachers as subject proponents there's a body of knowledge that has to be learned and assessed. Changing the system to more continuous assessment, I think we can all agree, will turn it into the JC with CBA's coming out our ears and then open to influence if the dept. wont pay and require teachers to correct. But who knows, maybe it'll settle down after about ten years.

So what else is there, reduce the subject load like the JC, cap it at 5 and take best 6? But then your specialisation would be reduced to 2 subjects assuming Irish English and Maths won't be touched... which they wont.

When people talk about reforming the Leaving Cert they rarely offer a solution that's viable but go on about rote-learning and stress. Is the problem the Leaving Cert or CAO or College. I don't think it's any of them. Nearly any career you want, there are other routes that might take a bit longer to get there. But it seems the Degree is the quickest way.

So really there's no problem with the system. The problem is the humans.

Bobtheman

For an LC exam to go ahead -LC students must be back early March latest. Childcare subsidy must be provided to teachers who need it in some form if primary schools still shut.
The 3 day model might work.
At the moment it does not look like the lockdown will be finished by early March

Bobtheman

As to reforming the LC its relatively simple
A) test half the course at the end of 5th year this reducing the pressure of a final exam
Have a project element in each subject

The rote learning criticism is bull in English. You have to answer the question they give you on the day that's based on subject knowledge. You have to shape your knowledge. Think about the question Somehow the critics think you can think critically about something without studying it thoroughly. Thus the bull**** about skills etc

Smacruairi

The problem with continuous assessment for the leaving cert - my Ted Talk.

Who assesses it?
1. DES does? Will they pay for minimum 2 pieces of work to be corrected and moderated per year? When will those correctors get the time to do it? Will they pay for external moderators? Does everyone do it at the same time? A student does 7 subjects roughly, that's 14days a year (3 whole teaching weeks) devoted to assessments. The pressure of the leaving will still be there, just spread out now over many days.

2. Teachers mark it? How can that be standardised? Fundamentalky changing relationship with student from coach to judge - you're a tutor on Monday, rugby coach on Tuesday, then deciding their future on Wednesday. Parents are already far too pushy, imagine then 2 whole years of canvassing the teacher and looking to account for students performance. Certain schools will just give either the questions out ahead of time, or just give out the answers ahead of time. There would be no legitimacy to the results.

3. Who wants this? Trendy to say wellbeing now, but we have had wellbeing the past 5 years, changed the jc to allow for it, and it's worse!

French Toast

Bobtheman wrote: »

As to reforming the LC its relatively simple
A) test half the course at the end of 5th year this reducing the pressure of a final exam
Have a project element in each subject

Yep, nail on the head there.

35% exams at the end of 5th Year.
35% exams at the end of 6th Year.
30% project work to be submitted towards the end of 6th Year.

Only thinking out loud, but that looks nicely weighted.

Smacruairi

French Toast wrote: »

Yep, nail on the head there.

35% exams at the end of 5th Year.
35% exams at the end of 6th Year.
30% project work to be submitted towards the end of 6th Year.

Only thinking out loud, but that looks nicely weighted.

Just to nitpick.

So who sets these exams. This means everyone in the country has to move at the same pace? Who corrects it? Who watches the student do it and certifies its the students own work, and not the teacher or parent or the Internet.

You talk about 5th year, what about those who don't do TY? They're at a disadvantage. Similarly boys are far less mature than girls in 5th.
Do the students know what they got in each part as they go through? So if you make a balls of the first one and you want 600,you just give up after 5th year? What happens if you're sick at the end of 5th year and can't do the exam?

I'm not saying that the lc is perfect as is, but these are the questions that need to be solved.

French Toast

Smacruairi wrote: »

Just to nitpick.

So who sets these exams. This means everyone in the country has to move at the same pace? Who corrects it? Who watches the student do it and certifies its the students own work, and not the teacher or parent or the Internet.

You talk about 5th year, what about those who don't do TY? They're at a disadvantage. Similarly boys are far less mature than girls in 5th.
Do the students know what they got in each part as they go through? So if you make a balls of the first one and you want 600,you just give up after 5th year? What happens if you're sick at the end of 5th year and can't do the exam?

I'm not saying that the lc is perfect as is, but these are the questions that need to be solved.

All good points you've raised.

I would've initially said run exams at the end of 5th Year exactly as the LC is ran, however thinking now that would require twice as many rooms/invigilators/correctors each year. Could be a logistical nightmare.

Rosita

Bobtheman wrote: »

For an LC exam to go ahead -LC students must be back early March latest. Childcare subsidy must be provided to teachers who need it in some form if primary schools still shut.
The 3 day model might work.
At the moment it does not look like the lockdown will be finished by early March

The Taoiseach was on Primetime last night but I just stumbled upon the programme so missed a good bit of the early part of the interview. Did anyone see if he said anything about the LC?

My instinct generally is that, while you'll always have the 'oh the numbers are down, what's the problem' angle being promoted, the potential of the variants to be a big problem in transmissibility is regarded as a big issue which the figures will not show of course. I know that the Scottish authorities (who are not as secretive as ours) have acknowledged that transmission among late teens has been a big problem. Getting back to school, even in part, could defy the received logic of reducing figures providing guarantees.

I presume the Taoiseach did not say much about the LC last night as I can find no mention of it anywhere.

Rosita

Bobtheman wrote: »

As to reforming the LC its relatively simple
A) test half the course at the end of 5th year this reducing the pressure of a final exam
Have a project element in each subject

I say this as someone who is healthily sceptical about the whole pressure-reduction thing as I believe assessing people under pressure is no harm and performance under a bit of pressure is informative about someone's abilities.

However, the pressure of the final exam is reduced only if the Fifth Year one has gone according to plan. And there's also a sizeable cohort who, having done a Fifth Year exam, and maybe followed it up with a brutal project, will realise the hopelessness of their last exam. Might create a different kind of pressure.

I would also imagine that such a system would only work if subjects were common level as someone who crashed and burned in a Fifth Year HL exam and dropped a level would be severely disadvantaged by having done a year at the 'wrong' level and been assessed at that level. Easy of course to find foibles in such ideas but I think there are significant issues to be addressed before it'd work.

amacca

Standardised centralised assessments every term.....maybe reduce cost by having most online ...maybe some could be done like the driver theory test for some subjects to reduce cost, admin hassle sheer time that would have to be dedicated to doing continuous assessment via traditional exam type assessment methods - could tech form part of the solution or is this like the fairytale technological border proposed by the UK for the north?

Gradually ratchet up the percentage being awarded so if you crash and burn at the start it isn't the be all end all

But if you are showing a consistent pattern of doing **** all....then let you crash a burn...theres too much not letting people crash and burn going on.....thats the best way for you to learn you actually have to do something yourself.

Just spitballing.......Im not saying this is some genius idea and I'm expecting holes to be shot in it and if I was still teaching I'm sure it would just degenerate into more and more admin burden or time spent teaching to a bank of questions if not implemented properly etc but maybe a bit of a talking point.

Smacruairi

Technology could be an answer, but only to certain questions. First of all, the investment in IT would be significant - they can't even suggest a centralised remote platform for the country let done design one for exams.

Secondly, to be honest, your crash and burn analogy sits odd with me. I would say crashing in one exam block as it currently stands is far less detrimental to your psyche than watching it slowly evaporate over 5th and 6th. If student x only gets 60% in the first test and mummy thinks he should be getting 95%,the teacher now has 2 years of headaches and student has 2 years of pressure on them on a consistent basis.

amacca

Smacruairi wrote: »

Technology could be an answer, but only to certain questions. First of all, the investment in IT would be significant - they can't even suggest a centralised remote platform for the country let done design one for exams.

Secondly, to be honest, your crash and burn analogy sits odd with me. I would say crashing in one exam block as it currently stands is far less detrimental to your psyche than watching it slowly evaporate over 5th and 6th. If student x only gets 60% in the first test and mummy thinks he should be getting 95%,the teacher now has 2 years of headaches and student has 2 years of pressure on them on a consistent basis.

I think I agree to be honest but there's always a call for continuous assessment out there as if it will solve problems..........the one positive I was thinking is they would be assessed on smaller portions of the course and have to keep up to date and really work/apply themselves in class rather than do nothing (in terms of working to gain understanding) and then blame everyone but themselves and cite stress etc at the end afyer they spent the best part of the two years doing SFA.....and there woukd be a record showing they are not working or don't have the aptitude from the start.

I was envisioning it more as a set up where there are much less excuses or hiding places for them and the responsibility and focus shifts to them because each unit could be broken down into tasks that are achievable if you are putting effort in but I can see how it woukd degenerate into what you have mentioned

km79

http://twitter.com/Education_Ire/status/1357738260458598402

Friday evening
Not too much concrete info anyways tbh

Treppen

French Toast wrote: »

All good points you've raised.

I would've initially said run exams at the end of 5th Year exactly as the LC is ran, however thinking now that would require twice as many rooms/invigilators/correctors each year. Could be a logistical nightmare.

Costs money... Answer is no.... Unless abolish Junior Cycle

am_zarathustra

km79 wrote: »

http://twitter.com/Education_Ire/status/1357738260458598402

Friday evening
Not too much concrete info anyways tbh[/QUOTE

Why bother with that announcement

Good to see the SEC involved, one of the few aspects that works in education

micks_address

km79 wrote: »

http://twitter.com/Education_Ire/status/1357738260458598402

Friday evening
Not too much concrete info anyways tbh

I suppose either system can’t favour its students. I think the sit the exam option will be there for high achievers who don’t want to risk dropping points to predicted grades. Everyone else will take the non exam road with predicted grades based on class work and assessments and engagement between now and end of may

Wombatman

km79 wrote: »

http://twitter.com/Education_Ire/status/1357738260458598402

Friday evening
Not too much concrete info anyways tbh

Headlines from my news feed...........

Indo
"Norma Foley announces two track approach to Leaving Certificate"

Examiner
"Leaving Cert to include written exams and an alternative "

Times
"Leaving Cert plans include exams and alternative assessment option"

Journal
"Leaving Cert: Government 'actively planning' for exams with alternative option to be available for students, says Minister"

shesty

Eh I got the impression from reading an article on it that it wasn't either /or.....it was exams, unless this lockdown goes on way longer, then it might be a choice.

But obviously no real details as yet, so I could well be wrong.

What sent me over the edge was the self-congratulatory "we are sorting this out, with everybody involved, aren't we great" -ness of the message.6 months too late lads....

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/education/leaving-cert-plans-include-exams-and-alternative-assessment-option-1.4477276?mode=amp

It is like they have just joined the world the rest of us have been living in for 11 months now...

km79

http://twitter.com/Education_Ire/status/1357751244106985472

The pearl necklace is back
Along with some weird background
There is a LOT going on visually there Probably to distract from the fact nothing is actually said

pandoraj09

"some cognisance of performance in “additional component” elements of examinations (coursework, orals, practicals, and so on)"

I can't see the Orals happening at all. No recruitment of teachers by the SEC yet. I wonder if we're going to be asked to divide the calculated grade into written/oral etc? What a nightmare that would be. Unless they're going to run the Orals very late in the year.....

pandoraj09

What in the name of God is that in the background???? Looks like a giant pearl with a hole in it. Maybe that's the theme running through her house!!!!

carr62

some cognisance of performance in “additional component” elements of examinations (coursework, orals, practicals, and so on)"

I'm a parent who hasn't the slightest clue what the above statement means. Could anyone put that in plain language for me? Thanks.

amacca

carr62 wrote: »

some cognisance of performance in “additional component” elements of examinations (coursework, orals, practicals, and so on)"

I'm a parent who hasn't the slightest clue what the above statement means. Could anyone put that in plain language for me? Thanks.

We want you to think we will take into account your performance in in coursework, orals, practical etc

This may or may not happen because we've agreed nothing and are effectively adopting a wait and see approach but wed rather you weren't sure of this so we don't have to do another round of those ****ing tiresome interviews with bleating morons like Matt Cooper etc....hopefully this auld ****e will make us look like were doing something until the path forward becomes clearer ....

She didn't add the "where practical" to stop another mini ****storm from being kicked up

rainbowtrout

carr62 wrote: »

some cognisance of performance in “additional component” elements of examinations (coursework, orals, practicals, and so on)"

I'm a parent who hasn't the slightest clue what the above statement means. Could anyone put that in plain language for me? Thanks.

To be fair we have no idea what it means either.

am_zarathustra

rainbowtrout wrote: »

To be fair we have no idea what it means either.

Nor do they!

carr62

Haha at least it's not just me then! Would it be fair to assume then, from what has been announced, that there will definitely be an alternative to the written exam offered?

History Queen

carr62 wrote: »

Haha at least it's not just me then! Would it be fair to assume then, from what has been announced, that there will definitely be an alternative to the written exam offered?

You'd think so, but honestly, you just cannot tell with the Dept. The alternative could be framed as a plan 'b' in case of a fourth wave or something like that. (I don't necessarily think so but really treat anything hinted at like this with a healthy level of scepticism)

km79

History Queen wrote: »

You'd think so, but honestly, you just cannot tell with the Dept. The alternative could be framed as a plan 'b' in case of a fourth wave or something like that. (I don't necessarily think so but really treat anything hinted at like this with a healthy level of scepticism)

Indeed
https://www.rte.ie/news/education/2021/0205/1195375-leaving-cert-exams/

Possible
Could


Hhhmmmmm

Wombatman

km79 wrote: »

Indeed
https://www.rte.ie/news/education/2021/0205/1195375-leaving-cert-exams/

Possible
Could


Hhhmmmmm

I think the genie is out of the bottle now. After what was said today, there is now a legitimate expectation that students grades, effectively points, will be based on exam results OR an unknown alternative grading process\mechanism.

Treppen

I'm confused, I thought she was going into talks with stakeholders.

Why is she making pronouncements now.

shesty

Even more confused here Treppen, I thought the talks had happened!What have they been doing for the last 4 weeks so?They sound like they have spent 3 weeks deciding something different has to happen, and just now they are going to start talking about the something different which is not confidence inspiring at all.

Rosita

I could reply to a few people but I'll just put the few thoughts on one email.

I, too, was under the impression that these talks were underway for some time. But this looks like an announcement of their start, with a strange hint at what their conclusion might be.

Secondly, I feel anyway like I have been reading this story in the media for weeks now. This has the sense of the Dept trying to wrest back some level of control of the whole narrative, or to give the illusion that this is all their idea. Good luck with that - they'll have move a lot faster to even catch up with the dust trails of the discussion.

I think the comment about the "some cognisance of the.....components" is creatively meaningless. As in it's bullsh*t but meant to be just that. In there just to try to keep those particular hounds from the door, as for those in teaching, as distinct from the media, as the cliché goes the devil will be in the detail. Journalists seem more interested in the political fallout or as we have seen in one or two reports don't quite understand the implications for different subjects and courses. For example, if the media had got the whole significance of no orals or practicals examiners having been appointed or even advertised for when that process is usually underway in early December, with conferences starting around now, they'd really have smelled a rat and had a story. But that went over their heads completely. That's a clear sign the LC has been seen as a doubtful starter since maybe November.

Getting back to that detail.....for example, what about choosing levels? I have people in my LC OL Irish class ready to choose HL if there's a hint of Oral marks being awarded like last year. (Not saying that'll happen, just saying what the real discussion among real people actually is). A very conspicuous absence too of any reference to time lines for getting back to school. Big change from "schools are safe, schools are safe". Should we read something into that? There's elephants all over the room.

This was a Friday PM holding statement which says nothing in particular and confirms the lack of strategy we, in our more sceptical moments, probably always assumed was there. But announcing the start of talks now.......in early February? What on earth gave they been doing all day every day for the last few months?

rainbowtrout

I just had a look at examinations.ie. Recruitment for examiners opened last night.

EDIT: my apologies, it’s only open for LCA. Not for the rest of them.

Random sample

rainbowtrout wrote: »

I just had a look at examinations.ie. Recruitment for examiners opened last night.

EDIT: my apologies, it’s only open for LCA. Not for the rest of them.

Those lca tasks were already open, so there’s no material change in the sec recruitment. They have updated the wording though, which said recruitment would begin in January up to last night.

I don’t understand (or maybe I do) why they don’t open recruitment up on an open plan basis, so apply for the orals, without knowing exactly when they would be. At least they’d know if they had enough examiners.

carr62

All very confusing. Im the parent of a 6th year who will be keen to take the non exam route as home school has been very difficult due to some family issues. I really don't know what to advise him to concentrate on now though. Apart from homework in all subjects, ( HL except maths) , do I get him to really concentrate on Irish in preparation for orals ( very little of that done in school yet) , or do I get him to begin work on a project that they've only begun talking about in the last few days in class. Seems late for a project, but maybe all Ag. projects are started this late? Perhaps projects and orals won't count this year, or indeed maybe they'll carry more weight than ever for those not choosing the written exam route. Hard to know what to advise, trying my best to keep him focussed.

pandoraj09

I'd say there is no chance Orals will take place this year as they used to. Not a hope. I had heard that Orals during Easter was a possibility but I don't think that's a runner anymore or maybe it is? I'm feeling sorry for my 2 leaving cert languages class. When I say "this will be useful in the Oral" I feel like a fool.

Rosita

pandoraj09 wrote: »

I'd say there is no chance Orals will take place this year as they used to. Not a hope. I had heard that Orals during Easter was a possibility but I don't think that's a runner anymore or maybe it is? I'm feeling sorry for my 2 leaving cert languages class. When I say "this will be useful in the Oral" I feel like a fool.

I've seen the thing about Orals during Easter suggested by people but not sure they've thought that through. In practical terms Orals are not a real encumbrance on a school. Students leave a class for maybe 25 minutes or half an hour and most hardly notice they're happening. Other than schools maybe not having to release a teacher to be an examiner there's no advantage and frankly I'd say that's not a massive advantage. Schools just get on with that anyway. The Orals, as in the actual examination, are not a big drain on school time.

In actual fact, I would imagine, looking at the calendar, that the plan would have been to hold Orals after Easter anyway so holding them during Easter would have been severely disadvantageous to students.

Wombatman

Treppen wrote: »

I'm confused, I thought she was going into talks with stakeholders.

Why is she making pronouncements now.

I think agreement has been reached that a two track approach will be taken. Getting to that point is an achievement in itself, as the mantra a month ago was that the traditional leaving cert was the only game in town.

Talks must now continue to get clarity \ agreement, on what the components of the alternative option will be. Decisions on how the JC will be conducted, the plan for orals and practicals, and other small matters, like encompassing home and self schoolers, still have to be agreed.

pandoraj09

And not forgetting the poor junior certs. Has Norma made any reference to them at all? Half of my 3rd year Irish class has stopped engaging.

Random sample

Rosita wrote: »

I've seen the thing about Orals during Easter suggested by people but not sure they've thought that through. In practical terms Orals are not a real encumbrance on a school. Students leave a class for maybe 25 minutes or half an hour and most hardly notice they're happening. Other than schools maybe not having to release a teacher to be an examiner there's no advantage and frankly I'd say that's not a massive advantage. Schools just get on with that anyway. The Orals, as in the actual examination, are not a big drain on school time.

Some principals don’t allow teachers out for the orals in normal time because they are so much hassle. It is difficult to get a suitable sub, and if you can’t, you have classes who aren’t being taught for a full week.

I think it will be a deterrent for a lot of teachers this year who normally do the orals to think of their classes at school going without instruction for a week.

am_zarathustra

Random sample wrote: »

Some principals don’t allow teachers out for the orals in normal time because they are so much hassle. It is difficult to get a suitable sub, and if you can’t, you have classes who aren’t being taught for a full week.

I think it will be a deterrent for a lot of teachers this year who normally do the orals to think of their classes at school going without instruction for a week.

This is the real issue with orals this year, even a principal who is normally accommodating us unlikely to sacrifice contact time given what's already lost. Teachers themselves are very unlikely to do it too, and then you've way fewer retired teachers. They've struggled the last few years getting enough irish oral examiners before this. Easter would be perfect, easy to open any school for two days, you'd get plenty of volunteers.

The other thing is the quality of work done the few days of orals. Kids are in high doe, they can't concentrate, it would take the pressure off everyone to do it over Easter..,.if they happen......but if they are recorded (like JC system) again it would still be easier to do over Easter.

Rosita

Random sample wrote: »

Some principals don’t allow teachers out for the orals in normal time because they are so much hassle. It is difficult to get a suitable sub, and if you can’t, you have classes who aren’t being taught for a full week.

A teacher can get sick for a week and getting a suitable sub can be tricky too. Such is life. But there is no evidence that there has been any shortage of oral examiners in the past so while obviously you will have Principals who'll take the stance you suggest it's not a problem so far as I know.

Bobtheman

When are we back at school? Is it going to be March??

Rosita

am_zarathustra wrote: »

They've struggled the last few years getting enough irish oral examiners before this.

I can't comment on the specifics of those other than to say that I know people personally who have applied and been put on a reserve list which doesn't suggest a shortage.

Incidentally in a school with over 80 LCs the orals (in Irish) anyway would take five days not two.

Finally, your talk of 'loss of contact time' suggests that Principals are giving zero credit to online classes which is unfortunate.