The way forward for LC2021

Bobtheman

Smacruairi wrote: »

Nah, no superconventions this time around...

How those people weren't named, shamed, and posted in every teacher's group known to man is a mystery in itself.

Clarify.. Over what exactly

km79

https://twitter.com/irishtimes/status/1360514215619006464?s=24

Under draft plans, all 60,000 Leaving Cert students would have the option to avail of calculated grades and complete written exams in June if they wished, according to well-placed sources. No agreement had been reached on how oral and practical exams might feed into this process.

Decision has been made . Talks are a pure charade
It will be the above
Memo going to cabinet Tuesday which will also include draft plans for returning. It will no doubt be leaked before then .

With calculated grades on the agenda I’ll be amazed if L Certs are not back on or even before Mon March 1st. Public health advice be damned ..........
No point of Mocks now either . That’s an extra two weeks of class tuition time in some schools

No mention of the JC...

Rosita

km79 wrote: »

[

With calculated grades on the agenda I’ll be amazed if L Certs are not back on or even before Mon March 1st. Public health advice be damned ..........

Funnily enough I'd be thinking the opposite. If they are desperate to get calculated grades through rather than written exams it's a sign we might not be back all that quickly. If teachers are plucking marks out of thin air anyway class contact time is far less important.

Now if written exams were the only show in town and actual preparation was needed it'd be a different story. Certainly it's the end of my LC class if there's predicted grades solely. I won't see them again.

I'd imagine, after watching the high grades from last year and hearing Simon Harris promising college places for everyone most students will take their chances on predicted grades.

Bobtheman

The whole thing is volitile. Have we seen any public health advice on return of schools?
If the Asti holds firm which I would not bet on.. What then?
The department arranged assessments in school?
Would members follow the union?

km79

Bobtheman wrote: »

The whole thing is volitile. Have we seen any public health advice on return of schools?
If the Asti holds firm which I would not bet on.. What then?
The department arranged assessments in school?
Would members follow the union?

Yes NPHET said it’s not safe yet mid week

Treppen

Bobtheman wrote: »

The whole thing is volitile. Have we seen any public health advice on return of schools?
If the Asti holds firm which I would not bet on.. What then?
The department arranged assessments in school?
Would members follow the union?

Well ASTI members will follow directives... Now I presume the ball is in TUI court...

Divide and conquer is the department's plan

Mrsmum

As far as I understand, Asti want a written LC with modified papers. I'm interested in teasing this out if anyone would oblige. So when I was at school I was a pretty good student but I would have struggled with the breadth of the workload. Once a certain level of intelligence is there, I think that's what separates a good student from a great one in terms of LC success. If the exam was shorter, more choice, whole areas cut out, I genuinely think I would have aced it ! Great for me but not great for the better students in the class. So I guess my question is is a modified exam not a dummed down one ? And how do you then differentiate between students' true ability if more students than normal in a class are doing excellently ? Is that then not a problem for the college points competition ? Maybe I've all wrong here, I'm just trying to figure out the thoughts in my head regarding how this option might work and if it is problematic in it's own way.

Bobtheman

In English they ditched a poet and a comparative mode. That saved at least a months work. Roughly.
That's already been done.
But I really think they are going to offer kids a choice.
Exam or predicted grade.
How this would work without the Asti is anybodys guess

Rosita

I know there was a bit of macho posturing in the latest Department info release through Carl O'brien about pressing ahead without the ASTI. Don't believe a word of it. Them doing this without teachers would be like me doing a class exam without students. Just can't happen. Politics is the art of the possible and we'll see that in the coming times. Foley will not want to be the Minister who pressed over LC chaos which is what could ensue. There won't be grades without teachers. It'd be like trying to have NCTs without mechanics or operations without surgeons.

Don't take public government utterances at face value. Remember two weeks ago the Minister was publicly committed to the traditional Leaving Cert like a drowning man is committed to a life buoy.

ascophyllum

If the Department are determined to plough ahead with calculated grades, then we'll have to just give H1, H2, H3s to students based on the paltry data we have and let them sort out the mess that will create. If you have damn all evidence to base a student's grade on, then you have to mark up, not down. The Dept refuse to acknowledge this so let them and the CAO sort out the ensuing mess.

Rosita

Can anyone tell what is the situation with students actually registering for the Leaving Cert and choosing levels, as in when is it going on, deadline etc.

Just that I gave students on my OL Irish class expecting that Orals will be scrapped, marks awarded, (as originally happened last year) and that they'll choose HL, get their 40% and stay in bed on the day of the exam. I'm just wondering if the examination system has been organised to prevent students picking a different level at this stage.

No doubt you'd have plenty of HL Maths students who probably have been likely to drop but now will hang on for the probability of the bonus points after a pass. Anyone know the situation with registration?

Mrsmum

Bobtheman wrote: »

In English they ditched a poet and a comparative mode. That saved at least a months work. Roughly.
That's already been done.

Yes but what I'm hearing now is talk of a two hour exam with broad choice of questions. Also if it was the case that pg was taken off the table, I think they would appease the student body by assuring them - just do it and we'll make sure it'll be easy - kind of thing. I suppose I would worry that that's all fine and good until the results come in and then it's total chaos. I've being deliberately negative here just to tease it out.

km79

Rosita wrote: »

Can anyone tell what is the situation with students actually registering for the Leaving Cert and choosing levels, as in when is it going on, deadline etc.

Just that I gave students on my OL Irish class expecting that Orals will be scrapped, marks awarded, as originally happened last year) and that they'll choose HL, get their 40% and stay in bed on the day of the exam. I'm just wondering if the examination system has been organised to prevent students picking a different level at this stage.

No doubt you'd have plenty of HL Maths students who probably have been fired to drop but now will hang on for the probability of the bonus points after a pass. Anyone know the situation with registration?

No information has been sent to schools
No recruitment
No wonder Norma is pushing predicted grades ......

History Queen

Mrsmum wrote: »

Yes but what I'm hearing now is talk of a two hour exam with broad choice of questions. Also if it was the case that pg was taken off the table, I think they would appease the student body by assuring them just do it and we'll make sure it'll be easy kind of thing. I suppose I would worry that that's all fine and good until the results come in and then it's total chaos. I've being deliberately negative here just to tease it out.

I haven't heard of this being proposed as a possible solution.

Mrsmum

Rosita wrote: »

Can anyone tell what is the situation with students actually registering for the Leaving Cert and choosing levels, as in when is it going on, deadline etc.

Just that I gave students on my OL Irish class expecting that Orals will be scrapped, marks awarded, as originally happened last year) and that they'll choose HL, get their 40% and stay in bed on the day of the exam. I'm just wondering if the examination system has been organised to prevent students picking a different level at this stage.

No doubt you'd have plenty of HL Maths students who probably have been fired to drop but now will hang on for the probability of the bonus points after a pass. Anyone know the situation with registration?

That's a good question.

Mrsmum

History Queen wrote: »

I haven't heard of this being proposed as a possible solution.

I could have sworn the Asti lady suggested it on Primetime when she was asked for alternatives ? Regardless it's definately a suggestion that's in the air out there. Also teachers have suggested it as better than cg on the Asti Twitter feed. But nothing formal.

History Queen

Mrsmum wrote: »

I could have sworn the Asti lady suggested it on Primetime when she was asked for alternatives ? Regardless it's definately a suggestion that's in the air out there. Also teachers have suggested it as better than cg on the Asti Twitter feed. But nothing formal.

Sorry I should have clarified, I wasn't disbelieving you, I just hadn't realised wholesale changes to exam papers was being discussed. I thought it was more modifications and choice that was being sought rather than actual new papers. I would've thought whole new papers would be more problematic than offering more choice/guaranteed sections from the point of view of familiarity and what people have been working towards.

Bobtheman

On Tuesday there will be predicted grades in the mix. That is certain. The Cabinet will discuss it. I would say they will pluck for the option that will take this off the agenda.
However I think we need to see the proposal and as of yet not much has been leaked. For all we know they are still thrashing out the details. Hasnt even been typed.

Random sample

Looking at that Carl o Brien article I’m angry! How do they think they’ll go ahead with predictive grades without the majority of teachers. Ffs, while the asti have rubbish pr, the government seem to be lacking in anything like the ability to relate to people. ‘Students need clarity so we will bull ahead with our plan to make your teachers give you grades without their agreement’. H1’s all round, so, even for the O level students!

The asti plan of sitting exams for all and predictive grades for those who are close contacts/ in isolation during the exams seems a sensible one. Predictive grades can’t be the default option. There would be zero study done from now to May. ‘Sorry I stopped engaging, my internet was down’.

km79

What could possibly go wrong with Storming Norma forcing a plan through



http://twitter.com/Martina03123661/status/1360550903095427075

Smacruairi

H1s for everyone. I'm not hired to sort out a career path for my students. I'll give them a test where they have you spell my name correctly and that'll be my data.

Random sample

Smacruairi wrote: »

H1s for everyone. I'm not hired to sort out a career path for my students. I'll give them a test where they have you spell my name correctly and that'll be my data.

I will have to add a question with spelling their own name right too. Differentiation, and all that. At least then some will get 50%.

am_zarathustra

Mrsmum wrote: »

That's a good question.

Matrix is in the schools or arriving soon, the kids will have to confirm levels online with a password. It's nonsense, any bordeline like will stay at higher, inflating points further. Levels had already been locked in last year so it was a completely different scenario.

Again, this is a logistic the general public or media have no interest in engaging with but that raises serious problems. The number of students who drop in some subjects even after the mocks can be 20%

Rosita

am_zarathustra wrote: »

Matrix is in the schools or arriving soon, the kids will have to confirm levels online with a password/QUOTE]

So the process hasn't happened. I assumed so as the students talking about registering for HL would gave made no sense otherwise. But as you say most people commenting, especially the angrier ones, will not even know this is an issue.

I wonder how they'll manage to get the poor mites who are on the wrong side of the digital divide and cannot attend classes to undertake the process of registering and doing levels online?

Str8outtaWuhan

Lanigans ball continues

https://www.rte.ie/news/ireland/2021/0213/1196922-leaving-certificate/?utm_source=xtremepush&utm_medium=webpush&utm_campaign=ASTI+to+re-enter+talks+with+Department+of+Education+on+assessment+for+Leaving+Certificate+exams+%28xtremepush+%2352614493%29&utm_term=notification+%23592063059_106228246&utm_content=A

am_zarathustra

Rosita wrote: »

am_zarathustra wrote: »

Matrix is in the schools or arriving soon, the kids will have to confirm levels online with a password/QUOTE]

So the process hasn't happened. I assumed so as the students talking about registering for HL would gave made no sense otherwise. But as you say most people commenting, especially the angrier ones, will not even know this is an issue.

I wonder how they'll manage to get the poor mites who are on the wrong side of the digital divide and cannot attend classes to undertake the process of registering and doing levels online?

This is overblown I also think, schools can make arrangements for a lot of students, especially LC, to get them online and engaged. I'm in a DEIS school and we have 80-90% attendence at live classes in 6th year, we'd hardly have that in school. Any student that would have been aiming for college is doing work and has applied for the CAO with the appropriate help from staff. Not as much, and not at the same place but work is being done on a daily basis. It took a lot of work from staff to get this but it's possible.

I think the matrices are in schools now or should be, they were being posted, but the EV 7/8 form were going online this year, or that was the announcement. They would have been filled out early February last year, so no kid unless they were clairvoyant, was thinking of PGs. I'll be very very interested in the HL numbers in maths, that could cause a serious bump in points across the board if even 10% more sit and pass the HL with the bonus points. The evidence isn't there this year at all, and I think parents and students don't realise of PGs go through I will have to test their kids every couple of weeks til June to make up that data deficit, with them knowing their grades will be towards a LC PG. If that was explained I'd be interested to know would they be as enthusiastic

Personally I think let the kids back, hopefully the week after midterm, we will settle them, get them back comfortable and working and then maybe a mock at Easter. Then back after Easter, revision for a shortened and revised exam with lots of choice and away they go.

The other option is tests every two weeks, high stakes, including parts of the course done in previous years and maybe multiple mock type exams.

km79

We are in the final furlong now imo

Bobtheman

Asti back in talks according to news

Mardy Bum

km79 wrote: »

What could possibly go wrong with Storming Norma forcing a plan through



http://twitter.com/Martina03123661/status/1360550903095427075

Votes, votes, votes.

Treppen

Mrsmum wrote: »

As far as I understand, Asti want a written LC with modified papers. I'm interested in teasing this out if anyone would oblige. So when I was at school I was a pretty good student but I would have struggled with the breadth of the workload. Once a certain level of intelligence is there, I think that's what separates a good student from a great one in terms of LC success. If the exam was shorter, more choice, whole areas cut out, I genuinely think I would have aced it ! Great for me but not great for the better students in the class. So I guess my question is is a modified exam not a dummed down one ? And how do you then differentiate between students' true ability if more students than normal in a class are doing excellently ? Is that then not a problem for the college points competition ? Maybe I've all wrong here, I'm just trying to figure out the thoughts in my head regarding how this option might work and if it is problematic in it's own way.

It's a very good point. I have full confidence in the SEC Chief Examiners because they've been pushing around the weighting and tweeking questions for years to ensure a bell curve. In saying that I can guarantee students won't be happy with minor changes, but thems the breaks if you strive for a fair distribution of grades. As a chief examiner told me before 'it's the students who set the final standard not the exam paper, we move towards the students standard when the papers come in'.

Also there are certain tricky questions that you can see the difference, no amount of omitting topics or bettering the odds will make it easier for these questions to be Aced.

am_zarathustra

Treppen wrote: »

It's a very good point. I have full confidence in the SEC Chief Examiners because they've been pushing around the weighting and tweeking questions for years to ensure a bell curve. In saying that I can guarantee students won't be happy with minor changes, but thems the breaks if you strive for a fair distribution of grades. As a chief examiner told me before 'it's the students who set the final standard not the exam paper, we move towards the students standard when the papers come in'.

Also there are certain tricky questions that you can see the difference, no amount of omitting topics or bettering the odds will make it easier for these questions to be Aced.

Exactly this, you might see one or two more open ended, tricky questions to separate out the H1s and H2s

deiseindublin

Bobtheman wrote: »

But I really think they are going to offer kids a choice. Exam or predicted grade.

Reading pieces this morning it seems it would be like last year, everyone gets a CG and then has the option of also doing the exam, no?

I'm confused about the choice? All articles mention the choice but none of them say if they'll have the result of the CG when choosing.

I think it would be very difficult for LCs to pick one of the other in advance and have to stick with it. The CG results last year were like a lottery for some schools and students.

I really don't think it's fair to have to pick in advance.

Also, the results don't really help, as CAO points needed will only be calculated
when all inflated grades have been processed. Who knows what course your CG will even get you in this crazy system.

Wombatman

ASTI and TUI representatives were interviewed on Katie Hannon just after 1pm on Radio 1. Well worth a listen back.

TUI saying nothing changed yesterday, from what was already agreed, so why are ASTI returning.

Clearly everybody was trying to avoid using descriptors like 'calculated grades', 'calculated grades', or 'estimated grades' but nobody could. Something very close to last years PGs is without doubt the second option.

ASTI believe they have secured a firm commitment from the minister that the exams will go ahead in June and that all additional components of assessments, orals, practicals and the like, will also be completed.

ASTI making it clear, that while they are open to creative suggestions on the second strand (PG \ CG), their members will not engage in student ranking like they did last year.

deiseindublin

I thought MG was awful. Is this where we're at? One union leader throws another under a bus for no apparent reason? Honestly, I'm ashamed to be a TUI union member if that's their policy.

Random sample

deiseindublin wrote: »

I thought MG was awful. Is this where we're at? One union leader throws another under a bus for no apparent reason? Honestly, I'm ashamed to be a TUI union member if that's their policy.

That seems to have been the policy for the last few years.

I asked yesterday and I’d still like to know, is Norma engaging all stakeholders separately? I can’t believe it if they have agreed to that, but at the same time, if the tui are going to side swipe at the asti maybe they are better off.

Wombatman

Wombatman wrote: »

ASTI and TUI representatives were interviewed on Katie Hannon just after 1pm on Radio 1. Well worth a listen back.

TUI saying nothing changed yesterday, from what was already agreed, so why are ASTI returning.

Clearly everybody was trying to avoid using descriptors like 'calculated grades', 'calculated grades', or 'estimated grades' but nobody could. Something very close to last years PGs is without doubt the second option.

ASTI believe they have secured a firm commitment from the minister that the exams will go ahead in June and that all additional components of assessments, orals, practicals and the like, will also be completed.

ASTI making it clear, that while they are open to creative suggestions on the second strand (PG \ CG), their members will not engage in student ranking like they did last year.

Radio spot here. Skip to 5min in.

https://www.rte.ie/radio/radioplayer/html5/#/radio1/11280973

History Queen

Michael Gillespie did seem to undercut Kieran Christie, I didn't think there was a need. Saying that is Christie misrepresenting what ASTI have achieved? Also interesting Gillespie says public health advice at the moment is that 6th years can goback the week of 22nd. If that's the case why isn't an announcement made? Have to say I'm not inclined to fully trust either Christie or Gillespie.

Mrsmum

History Queen wrote: »

Michael Gillespie did seem to undercut Kieran Christie, I didn't think there was a need. Saying that is Christie misrepresenting what ASTI have achieved? Also interesting Gillespie says public health advice at the moment is that 6th years can goback the week of 22nd. If that's the case why isn't an announcement made? Have to say I'm not inclined to fully trust either Christie or Gillespie.

It sounded like Gillespie was baffled or peeved at what Christie was saying/boasting he had achieved and wanted to set the record straight/put him in his place.

am_zarathustra

Jesus, the TUI are useless, I'd much prefer the option to be open as to what union your in, we are a TUI school but a lot would jumping they could I think. They have been very weak willed in the last few years and left alone, I doubt we'd have had the small improvements in pay we've seen

PoolDude

Interesting that Christie was gone off the line when asked to respond to what MG said. As someone not familiar with these players it certainly does not reflect well on this guy, Christie or ASTI; didn't like the question on Six One and said couldn't hear and then answered something different, didn't like what was happening in the talks and walked away, didn't like what MG said on the call and dropped off or just didn't respond.

Maybe I'm reading this the wrong way because as I said I don't know these folks or the politics of it - I'm just interested in understanding the solution and seeing something that's balanced for students and fair for teachers and gives them whatever protections needed to enable use their professional judgement if PG's are used.

I do think as I've said before, this needs to be a parallel process as originally described and they have to be figuring out the structure of the written exams and how orals/practical's feed into that.

Treppen

Wombatman wrote: »

ASTI and TUI representatives were interviewed on Katie Hannon just after 1pm on Radio 1. Well worth a listen back.

TUI saying nothing changed yesterday, from what was already agreed, so why are ASTI returning.

Clearly everybody was trying to avoid using descriptors like 'calculated grades', 'calculated grades', or 'estimated grades' but nobody could. Something very close to last years PGs is without doubt the second option.

ASTI believe they have secured a firm commitment from the minister that the exams will go ahead in June and that all additional components of assessments, orals, practicals and the like, will also be completed.

ASTI making it clear, that while they are open to creative suggestions on the second strand (PG \ CG), their members will not engage in student ranking like they did last year.

Now the ASTI have ensured that:
1. ranking will not happen.
2. And the government have to discuss exams being used.
3. Practicals and orals and coursework already completed will count and is being considered. This is especially pertinent for any music students.

According to the ASTI the Department would not countenance any of the above and were pushing CG only.

TUI.... as always following on the coat-tails, came out and said 'ya we were for that anyway as well'.

Interesting the Department claimed earlier last night that they were going ahead without ASTI anyway, (trying to split TUI and ASTI schools) but then the ASTI claimed that the minister has given assurances and they were returning to talks, it put a stop to the Department railroading.

Treppen

PoolDude wrote: »

Interesting that Christie was gone off the line when asked to respond to what MG said. As someone not familiar with these players it certainly does not reflect well on this guy, Christie or ASTI; didn't like the question on Six One and said couldn't hear and then answered something different, didn't like what was happening in the talks and walked away, didn't like what MG said on the call and dropped off or just didn't respond.

Maybe I'm reading this the wrong way because as I said I don't know these folks or the politics of it - I'm just interested in understanding the solution and seeing something that's balanced for students and fair for teachers and gives them whatever protections needed to enable use their professional judgement if PG's are used.

I do think as I've said before, this needs to be a parallel process as originally described and they have to be figuring out the structure of the written exams and how orals/practical's feed into that.

Agreed. Get the talks to talk about preparing for real exams in some part.

Wombatman

The interesting this about the agreement that ranking will not happen, is it implies teacher lead grading is going to happen.

joebloggs32

am_zarathustra wrote: »

Jesus, the TUI are useless, I'd much prefer the option to be open as to what union your in, we are a TUI school but a lot would jumping they could I think. They have been very weak willed in the last few years and left alone, I doubt we'd have had the small improvements in pay we've seen

You are more than entitled to join either union. Nothing can stop you.
Im in the TUI and about 15% of the members in my branch are from voluntary secondary schools. Even in the last week we got an application in from someone in a voluntary secondary school.

deiseindublin

Disgraceful the way the TUI accepted ASTI members in the middle of a dispute. They have no sense of union solidarity at all. Honestly, Larkin would turn in his grave if he witnessed their carry on.

joebloggs32

Treppen wrote: »

Now the ASTI have ensured that:
1. ranking will not happen.
2. And the government have to discuss exams being used.
3. Practicals and orals and coursework already completed will count and is being considered. This is especially pertinent for any music students.

According to the ASTI the Department would not countenance any of the above and were pushing CG only.

TUI.... as always following on the coat-tails, came out and said 'ya we were for that anyway as well'.

Interesting the Department claimed earlier last night that they were going ahead without ASTI anyway, (trying to split TUI and ASTI schools) but then the ASTI claimed that the minister has given assurances and they were returning to talks, it put a stop to the Department railroading.

The TUI priorities were outlined at their second level advisory committee last week.

The leaving cert written exam to proceed and the second component of assessment must be included. The written exams to have as much choice as possible to take account of the current circumstances.
They like the Asti also outlined their opposition to having PG or a hybrid of sorts with students being able to pick and choose between the two.
The TUI congress has passed a motion not to cooperate with the PG model.

To say the TUI are jumping on the coat-tails of the Asti on the issue of the leaving is well wide of the.mark.

joebloggs32

deiseindublin wrote: »

Disgraceful the way the TUI accepted ASTI members in the middle of a dispute. They have no sense of union solidarity at all. Honestly, Larkin would turn in his grave if he witnessed their carry on.

My branch refused people at the time who tried to move in the dispute.
I had people in my own school looking to swap but we refused them.
There were some applications coming in with people blatantly telling lies about past membership once word got out we were not accepting Asti members at that time. I remember a conversation with one teacher who got angry with me for blocking their application as her boyfriend had managed to change unions in another part of the country. I told her i was just applying the rules.

However, my point was as there is no dispute now, people can choose to join either union.

Hopontop

deiseindublin wrote: »

Disgraceful the way the TUI accepted ASTI members in the middle of a dispute. They have no sense of union solidarity at all. Honestly, Larkin would turn in his grave if he witnessed their carry on.

Did anything ever come of that? Didn’t ASTI complain to ICTU?

Rosita

Probably very non-pc thing to be saying but the role of Second Level students in this needs to be more appropriate. There is no other examination process from the Driver Theory Test to University exams where those undertaking the exams get to dictate that they can choose between doing the exam or not and take a chance on a predicted outcome.

By all means be cognisant of lost time and make exams more approachable and tolerable but the idea that someone can mention the words 'stress' and 'mental health' and an examination system that has by and large served well is under existential threat is not on.

I sincerely hope too that the Dept of Ed is an honest broker in this situation and is not just going through the process to keep students "working" until the bells tolls in June.

Looking around and seeing things like the GAA inter-county games exemption at level 5 not being renewed, and level 5 generally inevitably being continued, the comments on foreign travel before Christmas even, plus the lack of even basic planning for Orals/Practicals sometimes makes me wonder about whether this is all a smoke and mirrors job and will we be back in school at all this year? Is fear of variant strains now calling the tune? But that's just thinking (hopefully mad thoughts) aloud.

deiseindublin

It's just a pity other branches weren't so honest! There's a septic atmosphere between them now and all teachers are the losers as the government continually divide and conquer.

Hasn't the new pay deal a facet where each union has to negotiate to get a bigger slice of the cake than other unions? The whole thing is divisive enough already, without needing MG (who I usually find great) pouring fuel onto the fire.

All he had to do was sidestep the question, would have been so easy.