The way forward for LC2021

Smacruairi

Wombatman wrote: »

Yes. Why do you ask?

Just wondering. Does your child want exams or make up grades? If the grades they get aren't what they want, would they be happy to waste a year waiting to do the actual exam like what happened last year? You don't have to answer, genuine question.

PoolDude

Wombatman wrote: »

June exams were referenced by the TUI representative on the radio yesterday. Unlike last year, the students who do the exams should be able to enter college in 2021, and not have to postpone for a year. Exams will have to be around June in order to mark and review, so that points are ready for CAO.

Exams starting June 9th specifically was referred to by the TUI. So normal exam timetable - that may mean PG results before start of June. To do that and account for the slow processed described by others you’d imagine teachers inputs needed by end of the Easter holiday or May bank holiday latest. Many students would be focused on class and how they are being assessed till the deadline for PG submissions and probably continue studying for some or all written papers until they know their PG in June during the period from Easter/May to the exams.

But who knows

shesty

trihead wrote: »

In case you were expecting a decision/details on Tuesday after the cabinet meeting.

https://www.thejournal.ie/leaving-cert-decision-5354121-Feb2021/

Jesus.
They all need to stop talking.Just shut up, let one person do the talking and take social media and the microphones away from the rest of them.Do they realise it isn't just LC students waiting, there is a huge cohort of parents out here waiting with fingers crossed for some sort of date of return clarification to be announced on Tuesday??Since that is what they have been saying since Thursday some time.....

am_zarathustra

Rosita wrote: »

Heard Brian Mooney on the radio today (incidentally he seems convinced that teachers have loads of data for Predicted Grades - must be one of those teachers who puts great store in the end-of-chapter exam, otherwise not sure where he's getting that from) and that's what he seemed to imply.

But given the time it took between starting the process last year (albeit the basic processes are in place at least) and results being available it'll be fair going to have results in time for students to make a properly informed decision about sitting an exam while trying to decide if they should or shouldn't prepare for an exam in April/May.

He's a retired guidance counselor who works for standard life, don't mind him would be my advice, he hasn't a breeze

Bobtheman

I know Brian well. He retired a few years back so has no clue what's going on in any school. Didn't teach a mainstream subject either for years. A nice man but on this occasion speaking through his hxxx

Icsics

Bobtheman wrote: »

I know Brian well. He retired a few years back so has no clue what's going on in any school. Didn't teach a mainstream subject either for years. A nice man but on this occasion speaking through his hxxx

Yes, was saying all sorts of mad stuff in that interview.

Wombatman

Smacruairi wrote: »

Just wondering. Does your child want exams or make up grades? If the grades they get aren't what they want, would they be happy to waste a year waiting to do the actual exam like what happened last year? You don't have to answer, genuine question.

Not sure where you are getting 'make up grades' from? Did you and you collogues just make up grades last year? I would hope teachers to do their utmost with whatever data is available to them.

If you were a leaving cert student which would you want, exams, PGs or a choices of picking and choosing between both to your best advantage. I would have thought the answer to be obvious.

As I said, I don't expect the students who sit exams this year will have to postpone college entry for as year, as the exams are planned for June not November.

Wombatman

rainbowtrout wrote: »

Or offering the exams in June knowing the majority would probably opt for predicted grades

It is clear to me that this is what the department his hoping for. Attractive PGs for all before the exams in the hope that a minority will sign up for exams, hence reducing the cost and workload involved in organising the, albeit modified, exams.

From what I'm reading here, the department and the SEC are in no position, at this point, to run a full LC in June. I guess because of this, they are hoping the exams will take a back seat to PGs and this is what the ASTI picked up on last week, which lead them to walk away from the discussions.

Rosita

Wombatman wrote: »

Not sure where you are getting 'make up grades' from? Did you and you collogues just make up grades last year? I would hope teachers to do their utmost with whatever data is available to them.

But in truth it's still a made up grade isn't it? If it's not the result of an actual exam it's by definition a made up grade.

Smacruairi

Wombatman wrote: »

Not sure where you are getting 'make up grades' from?
r.

Well the most obvious example is that we had 5th year Xmas, 5th year summer, 6th Yr Xmas, and then mock exams. That allowed for some element of "calculation" but didn't help me when one of my students moved schools, and another was in hospital for one set of exams and had a bereavement for another.

This time we have... 5th Yr Xmas... That's it. So yes, there's far more uncertainty this time around, particularly facing into 3 more months of teaching and testing. I'm sure students won't thank me if I don't heavily hint at what I'm to test them on in the future, and what happens if a student then absents themselves? Should I just not test anything at all now? It's a mess.

Also you are "predicting" that students won't lose another year... Parents made that same prediction for 3 months last year..

Best of luck to your child though,sincerely.

Bobtheman

No offence wombat. Why don't you ask your own kids teachers to walk you through the process. That's if you have kids because im not really sure of your agenda here. This ain't citizens information.

Wombatman

Rosita wrote: »

But in truth it's still a made up grade isn't it? If it's not the result of an actual exam it's by definition a made up grade.

Surely the grade awarded a reflection of application, effort and understanding. How did you differentiate between a H1 and a H8 last year? I'm hoping you didn't just make it up.

If it is as arbitrary as you say, why would you engage in the process at all?

Smacruairi

Wombatman wrote: »

p.

If it is as arbitrary as you say, why would you engage in the process at all?

A, I answered that already, and B we don't actually what is the craic with grades this year, that's the whole problem.. We are staring at March which should be orals and practicals and don't have the foggiest.

Treppen

Wombatman wrote: »

It is clear to me that this is what the department his hoping for. Attractive PGs for all before the exams in the hope that a minority will sign up for exams, hence reducing the cost and workload involved in organising the, albeit modified, exams.

From what I'm reading here, the department and the SEC are in no position, at this point, to run a full LC in June. I guess because of this, they are hoping the exams will take a back seat to PGs and this is what the ASTI picked up on last week, which lead them to walk away from the discussions.

That's my understanding in a nutshell. The only way to keep students on track is have both PG + Modified Exams.
Students looking for choice of either is nuts and incongruent.

Rosita

Wombatman wrote: »

1) Surely the grade awarded a reflection of application, effort and understanding.

2) How did you differentiate between a H1 and a H8 last year? I'm hoping you didn't just make it up.

3) If it is as arbitrary as you say, why would you engage in the process at all?

1) Yes, but exams normally judge that. That's my point - anything other than an actual exam is still made up.

2) Easy, I had 4 sets of credible relevant extended-length exam results. They also plugged in their Junior Cert grade later. (It was still of course a made up grade as distinct from a sat exam grade, which was reflected generally, it seems, in grade inflation).

3) Because of a reluctance on the part of the government to insist on regular written LC exams.

Mrsmum

Smacruairi wrote: »

Well the most obvious example is that we had 5th year Xmas, 5th year summer, 6th Yr Xmas, and then mock exams. That allowed for some element of "calculation" but didn't help me when one of my students moved schools, and another was in hospital for one set of exams and had a bereavement for another.

This time we have... 5th Yr Xmas... That's it. So yes, there's far more uncertainty this time around, particularly facing into 3 more months of teaching and testing. I'm sure students won't thank me if I don't heavily hint at what I'm to test them on in the future, and what happens if a student then absents themselves? Should I just not test anything at all now? It's a mess.

Also you are "predicting" that students won't lose another year... Parents made that same prediction for 3 months last year..

Best of luck to your child though,sincerely.

Can I ask about this - when I look at my son's profile on the school website it shows assessments for 5th year Xmas, 5th year summer and 6th year Xmas so far. The 5th year Summer result is a comment from each teacher regarding work engagement level during first lockdown and quality thereof eg in one subject - strengths this and that, weaknesses this and that, another "very conscientious student" another "on course for H1 keeping up the good work". Are these results not available in all schools or is it that you consider these results meaningless from a cg point of view ? No mocks but I remember last year people were speaking about the unfairness of using mocks as sometimes set hard and sometimes soft and other reasons of their usage being unfair. And after all this school year is not over yet for other assessments to happen.
I suppose, as a parent, it is difficult to understand the viewpoint that your child's teachers don't know their ability to the point they say they will have to pluck a grade out of the air, or use wild guesswork when every year you go before the teacher and you leave impressed at just how thorough is the knowledge the teacher has on the pupil. If for instance a parent tried to contradict a teacher's view of said pupil, they would have some job on their hands to change a teacher's mind. I think for me, I sortof, can't connect the teacher, imo, being the authority on my son's ability during schooltime but then saying they will have to pluck a grade out of the air for cg. And it's important for parents to understand the problem so as to be able to advise their LC children.

amacca

Mrsmum wrote: »

Can I ask about this - when I look at my son's profile on the school website it shows assessments for 5th year Xmas, 5th year summer and 6th year Xmas so far. The 5th year Summer result is a comment from each teacher regarding work engagement level during first lockdown and quality thereof eg in one subject - strengths this and that, weaknesses this and that, another "very conscientious student" another "on course for H1 keeping up the good work". Are these results not available in all schools or is it that you consider these results meaningless from a cg point of view ? No mocks but I remember last year people were speaking about the unfairness of using mocks as sometimes set hard and sometimes soft and other reasons of their usage being unfair. And after all this school year is not over yet for other assessments to happen.
I suppose, as a parent, it is difficult to understand the viewpoint that your child's teachers don't know their ability to the point they say they will have to pluck a grade out of the air, or use wild guesswork when every year you go before the teacher and you leave impressed at just how thorough is the knowledge the teacher has on the pupil. If for instance a parent tried to contradict a teacher's view of said pupil, they would have some job on their hands to change a teacher's mind. I think for me, I sortof, can't connect the teacher, imo, being the authority on my son's ability during schooltime but then saying they will have to pluck a grade out of the air for cg. And it's important for parents to understand the problem so as to be able to advise their LC children.

I think you have an idea of what bands a student might fit into but it can be hard to say some students are better than other within those bands

Put yourself in the position of having to decide even after two years contact time....on some years you might know who the dead cert lock for a H1 is, you might also know who the dead cert H8 is....but there are many others in the middle that you can't truly predict/calculate wtf might happen....could be C or B or even who gets the B1 and the B2 .....there's just no way to be sure except an exam

No matter how well you know them some surprise, some don't listen to a word you day over two years doing as little as possible instead and then do average/to middling as they actually make an effort in the last 5/6 weeks.....

Some work away consistently but they dont really have the ability, it's more about highlighting everything in sight but understanding is at a low enough level but they get lucky every once in a while and that one thing they could stretch to pops up

Teachers do feel like they are plucking some grades out of thin air because they are for some (possibly all students) they are giving a best guess thsts all it is and that goes against the grain.....the exam is the fat lady singing and the real judge

Even when I gave parent teacher meetings I did know how the student was applying themselves, I could see the gaps in their understanding, the strengths, weaknesses the lack of confidence and the overconfidence and I could speak with accuracy on that

But I couldn't be sure what grade most of them (and in fact really all if them were going to get) ......just like you cant be sure usain bolt was going to take home that gold until he ran the race but you could put down more money on him given his natural ability/previous form etc

But what about gatlin or the less talented runners from other countries, could you place them with accuracy withoit running the race...would you put money on your rankings 1 to 8? Even if you had all the stats?

There's something analogous in PG and even at that I feel I'm not making my point very well

Mrsmum

amacca wrote: »

I think you have an idea of what bands a student might fit into but it can be hard to say some students are better than other within those bands

Put yourself in the position of having to decide even after two years contact time....on some years you might know who the dead cert lock for a H1 is, you might also know who the dead cert H8 is....but there are many others in the middle that you can't truly predict/calculate wtf might happen....could be C or B or even who gets the B1 and the B2 .....there's just no way to be sure except an exam

No matter how well you know them some surprise, some don't listen to a word you day over two years doing as little as possible instead and then do average/to middling as they actually make an effort in the last 5/6 weeks.....

Some work away consistently but they dont really have the ability, it's more about highlighting everything in sight but understanding is at a low enough level but they get lucky every once in a while and that one thing they could stretch to pops up

Teachers do feel like they are plucking some grades out of thin air because they are for some (possibly all students) they are giving a best guess thsts all it is and that goes against the grain.....the exam is the fat lady singing and the real judge

Even when I gave parent teacher meetings I did know how the student was applying themselves, I could see the gaps in their understanding, the strengths, weaknesses the lack of confidence and the overconfidence and I could speak with accuracy on that

But I couldn't be sure what grade most of them (and in fact really all if them were going to get) ......just like you cant be sure usain bolt was going to take home that gold until he ran the race but you could put down more money on him given his natural ability/previous form etc

But what about gatlin or the less talented runners from other countries, could you place them with accuracy withoit running the race...would you put money on your rankings 1 to 8? Even if you had all the stats?

There's something analogous in PG and even at that I feel I'm not making my point very well

No, thank you. That's a very good explanation for me and perhaps other parents to take on board.

Smacruairi

Mrsmum wrote: »

Can I ask about this - when I look at my son's profile on the school website it shows assessments for 5th year Xmas, 5th year summer and 6th year Xmas so far. The 5th year Summer result is a comment from each teacher regarding work engagement level during first lockdown and quality thereof eg in one subject - strengths this and that, weaknesses this and that, another "very conscientious student" another "on course for H1 keeping up the good work". Are these results not available in all schools or is it that you consider these results meaningless from a cg point of view ? No mocks but I remember last year people were speaking about the unfairness of using mocks as sometimes set hard and sometimes soft and other reasons of their usage being unfair. And after all this school year is not over yet for other assessments to happen.
I suppose, as a parent, it is difficult to understand the viewpoint that your child's teachers don't know their ability to the point they say they will have to pluck a grade out of the air, or use wild guesswork when every year you go before the teacher and you leave impressed at just how thorough is the knowledge the teacher has on the pupil. If for instance a parent tried to contradict a teacher's view of said pupil, they would have some job on their hands to change a teacher's mind. I think for me, I sortof, can't connect the teacher, imo, being the authority on my son's ability during schooltime but then saying they will have to pluck a grade out of the air for cg. And it's important for parents to understand the problem so as to be able to advise their LC children.

To briefly put it, if I write h2 on a midterm report, that could be from a class test, just general homework calibre, engagement in clasd etc. It is not "they will get this in the lc", more "keep up this level of work and everything should come together".

That's why there's always a drop in grades come mocks - doing the course altogether, and then with other subjects, thsts a whole diff ball game, abs very very hard to predict how kids react. Some panic and seize up, some just are good at exams. That's why the Exam is key in establishing that calculation.

Rosita

Mrsmum wrote: »

I suppose, as a parent, it is difficult to understand the viewpoint that your child's teachers don't know their ability to the point they say they will have to pluck a grade out of the air, or use wild guesswork .

Nobody mentioned wild guesswork, or that teachers don't know students' ability. What calculated grades does is ask a teacher to pinpoint specifically a student's mark out of 100. Most conversations I've had with parents relates to how they are doing, how they can improve. At no stage has a parent asked me what actual mark they would get in the LC, nor would they have ever expected I could answer that. Wild guesswork, if you have plenty of experience of the student and a fair bit of data, it is not. But it is still guesswork. Some students can exceed expectations in an exam, others can be exposed.

Not sure why it's such a difficult proposition. Most people would have predicted, say, England to beat Italy in Rugby yesterday because they know the relative abilities of the teams based on previous form. Few would have predicted the exact score of the match correctly. That's in essence what teachers are being asked to do.

There are many other moving parts which won't even occur to people outside teaching. I will probably be giving calculated grades to students who might not even sit that level if they had to go to a June exam. Likewise many HL Maths students might not have survived the post-Mocks reality dose but now they'll hang in there. These are not least of the reasons CGs are very attractive to many students.

Mrsmum

@ smacruairi and @ Rosita, thank you for your explanations. I think, in a way, you know what you know so well that you (teachers in general) do not understand that other people may not know what is obvious to you. This does not serve teachers well in the media and in the public outlook imo.

am_zarathustra

Mrsmum wrote: »

@ smacruairi and @ Rosita, thank you for your explanations. I think, in a way, you know what you know so well that you (teachers in general) do not understand that other people may not know what is obvious to you. This does not serve teachers well in the media and in the public outlook imo.

This is a very true. I think people assume assessment in schools is a simply writing a grade on the front of a paper, there is so much more nuance to it than that. The media seem hellbent on not having a single, practicing teacher whose been through the process have any voice though. I'm not sure why

noplacehere

am_zarathustra wrote: »

This is a very true. I think people assume assessment in schools is a simply writing a grade on the front of a paper, there is so much more nuance to it than that. The media seem hellbent on not having a single, practicing teacher whose been through the process have any voice though. I'm not sure why

I suspect it’s because none of us want to put themselves out there to be attacked. I was actually going to do an interview for a journalist about three weeks ago and I pulled out. I was too concerned about the fall out. Most of the teachers I know have their heads down ignoring the media and politicians attacks trying to do the best for their students in a less than ideal situation

Rosita

Another interesting addendum to this year's scenario is that last year when CGs were happening we had to cut all contact with students involved. This year it looks as if we'll be expected to have them in front of us day in day out during the same process!

Treppen

Mrsmum wrote: »

Can I ask about this - when I look at my son's profile on the school website it shows assessments for 5th year Xmas, 5th year summer and 6th year Xmas so far. The 5th year Summer result is a comment from each teacher regarding work engagement level during first lockdown and quality thereof eg in one subject - strengths this and that, weaknesses this and that, another "very conscientious student" another "on course for H1 keeping up the good work". Are these results not available in all schools or is it that you consider these results meaningless from a cg point of view ? No mocks but I remember last year people were speaking about the unfairness of using mocks as sometimes set hard and sometimes soft and other reasons of their usage being unfair. And after all this school year is not over yet for other assessments to happen.
I suppose, as a parent, it is difficult to understand the viewpoint that your child's teachers don't know their ability to the point they say they will have to pluck a grade out of the air, or use wild guesswork when every year you go before the teacher and you leave impressed at just how thorough is the knowledge the teacher has on the pupil. If for instance a parent tried to contradict a teacher's view of said pupil, they would have some job on their hands to change a teacher's mind. I think for me, I sortof, can't connect the teacher, imo, being the authority on my son's ability during schooltime but then saying they will have to pluck a grade out of the air for cg. And it's important for parents to understand the problem so as to be able to advise their LC children.

Giving a rough band is a lot easier than giving an exact % which is what was asked last time. Even then you'll have borderline students who could get H1 or H2 on the day. Not every student exists exactly in the middle of each grade band. Once the Mocks are in you've a better idea. But still won't know for certain what they'd get in the LC... although you kind of know who the definite 100%ers are if you are lucky to get them.

So ya I think I could confidently predict a grade band for about 20% of students . The rest, I wouldn't like to , unless they had mocks and filled all their exam papers.
Class tests before Christmas were important but definitely not a LC predictor... I used them more as a teaching tool.

Treppen

Rosita wrote: »

Another interesting addendum to this year's scenario is that last year when CGs were happening we had to cut all contact with students involved. This year it looks as if we'll be expected to have them in front of us day in day out during the same process!

Maybe they're hoping to draw out the talks for another 2 months to avoid that. :pac:
Can you imagine every single assignment when we come back in a week...
"Will this be counting for predicted grades sir?"
"Can I get my grinds teacher to talk to you about why you marked me down in this question".
" Ya I was sick yesterday, can I do the same test tomorrow/at home".
" The other class got an easier assignment Miss".
"My mother wants you to ring her about my grades Sir".

History Queen

Treppen wrote: »

Maybe they're hoping to draw out the talks for another 2 months to avoid that. :pac:
Can you imagine every single assignment when we come back in a week...
"Will this be counting for predicted grades sir?"
"Can I get my grinds teacher to talk to you about why you marked me down in this question".
" Ya I was sick yesterday, can I do the same test tomorrow/at home".
" The other class got an easier assignment Miss".
"My mother wants you to ring her about my grades Sir".

On one hand I'm laughing but on the other....Christ!

Treppen

History Queen wrote: »

On one hand I'm laughing but on the other....Christ!

Well one things for sure, they're gonna better be a bit nicer to us. Like ... "BTW class I only drink single origin coffee that's beans have been hand ground , if it's cold... I won't be happy".

Jesus we'll be like primary school teachers swimming in presents and gift vouchers.

Just joking btw.

History Queen

Treppen wrote: »

Well one things for sure, they're gonna better be a bit nicer to us. Like ... "BTW class I only drink single origin coffee that's beans have been hand ground , if it's cold... I won't be happy".

Jesus we'll be like primary school teachers swimming in presents and gift vouchers.

Just joking btw.

Ok that one did make me laugh! :pac:

amacca

Treppen wrote: »

Well one things for sure, they're gonna better be a bit nicer to us. Like ... "BTW class I only drink single origin coffee that's beans have been hand ground , if it's cold... I won't be happy".

Jesus we'll be like primary school teachers swimming in presents and gift vouchers.

Just joking btw.

It'll be odd not to be ignored, disrespected, ridiculed and put under pressure just trying to explain something to some students so they can get something out of it won't it?

What am I saying, that cohort either won't show up or will be worse than ever

PoolDude

Treppen wrote: »

Giving a rough band is a lot easier than giving an exact % which is what was asked last time. Even then you'll have borderline students who could get H1 or H2 on the day. Not every student exists exactly in the middle of each grade band. Once the Mocks are in you've a better idea. But still won't know for certain what they'd get in the LC... although you kind of know who the definite 100%ers are if you are lucky to get them.

So ya I think I could confidently predict a grade band for about 20% of students . The rest, I wouldn't like to , unless they had mocks and filled all their exam papers.
Class tests before Christmas were important but definitely not a LC predictor... I used them more as a teaching tool.

Will the Unions want teachers to give grades then rather than exact %?

Also hadn’t realised there was no further contact once CG were announced last year. I guess with there being an exam this year that’ll have to change. Theyll be as nice as pie till the deadline for submitting your predictions. When that is I guess is dependent on whether they want to tell students the results before the written exams or not

Treppen

PoolDude wrote: »

Will the Unions want teachers to give grades then rather than exact %?

It's hard to say. If there's banding then there's going to be bunching if you're unsure you might put them into the higher band to be safe, whereas if you've to give exact % you might be more inclined to leave it around the borderline. Although given last year's bumping nobody knows what way it'll go, maybe an algorithm will throw them all into the tumble dryer again, and out pops a nicely adjusted bell curve distribution.

If a written exam in June or July is tied into that then it should be a good moderator for predicted grades. I could assume it would do away with the need for any of this algorithm nonsense of junior cert grades class history, school profiling. Class ranking.

But I did hear a stats guy from UL who said, ya just allocate bands and let the CAO take care of the rest by a lottery . Every year there was a lottery anyway with the lowest qualified candidates who had equal points.

PoolDude wrote: »

Also hadn’t realised there was no further contact once CG were announced last year. I guess with there being an exam this year that’ll have to change. Theyll be as nice as pie till the deadline for submitting your predictions. When that is I guess is dependent on whether they want to tell students the results before the written exams or not

No way should they tell students predicted grades before the exam. Treat it like Easter practicals and orals etc.

What purpose would it serve? Unless of course if the students still want that notion of choosing between either PG or Sat exams... and then use either for CAO. That wouldn't sit well with me, but it might be a case of 'give them whatever they want' with the minister and anxious parents.

solerina

Rosita wrote: »

1) Yes, but exams normally judge that. That's my point - anything other than an actual exam is still made up.

2) Easy, I had 4 sets of credible relevant extended-length exam results. They also plugged in their Junior Cert grade later. (It was still of course a made up grade as distinct from a sat exam grade, which was reflected generally, it seems, in grade inflation).

3) Because of a reluctance on the part of the government to insist on regular written LC exams.

Totally made up, I 100% agree with you.
I have a 120 min fifth year exam from November 2019, it tested about 6 chapters.
I have a 120 min test from Nov 2020 which tested all of fifth year and a bit of sixth year.
Outside of that I have numerous end of chapter tests but how can you base a LC grade on those ?
For instance one lad in my class always gets 85% or above in the chapter tests got 66% in the Nov 2020 test and this test was the only one in the last year that assessed more than 1-2 chapters. Do I grade him at 66% ??? Bet his parents would be in straight away, but that’s the only semi realistic exam I have and it was way too short !!

Dickie10

biggest issue now is numbers of cases stubbornly high still around 1000 mark. it will take another month to get down to 200 cases best possible scenario but in a month we could be 500-600. what do we do then? i wouldnt be happy at all going into a classroom with 500+ cases a day

Rosita

Dickie10 wrote: »

biggest issue now is numbers of cases stubbornly high still around 1000 mark. it will take another month to get down to 200 cases best possible scenario but in a month we could be 500-600. what do we do then? i wouldnt be happy at all going into a classroom with 500+ cases a day

Around 70% of cases are associated with the UK variant which is considered more transmissible and dangerous. I think that's why there's no great rush on about schools and why it's nearly a given that level 5 restrictions generally will be there for quite some time. I think the pushing ahead with calculated grades says a lot about the reality of how limited our schooling might be in the coming months if the figures continue to plateau as high as this.

Dickie10

yeah i live with my parents in mid 80s and late 70s wouldnt be at all happy to be going into school setting.my father is getting vaccinated this week first shot on wednesday.

rainbowtrout

PoolDude wrote: »

Will the Unions want teachers to give grades then rather than exact %?

Also hadn’t realised there was no further contact once CG were announced last year. I guess with there being an exam this year that’ll have to change. Theyll be as nice as pie till the deadline for submitting your predictions. When that is I guess is dependent on whether they want to tell students the results before the written exams or not

Whatever about what the union want, the DES will want exact percentages to allow them to move grades up and down, so it won't just be plucking a grade from a bunch of H2s in a school at random and moving them down to H3...

rainbowtrout

Treppen wrote: »

It's hard to say. If there's banding then there's going to be bunching if you're unsure you might put them into the higher band to be safe, whereas if you've to give exact % you might be more inclined to leave it around the borderline. Although given last year's bumping nobody knows what way it'll go, maybe an algorithm will throw them all into the tumble dryer again, and out pops a nicely adjusted bell curve distribution.

If a written exam in June or July is tied into that then it should be a good moderator for predicted grades. I could assume it would do away with the need for any of this algorithm nonsense of junior cert grades class history, school profiling. Class ranking.

The Leaving Cert could produce some odd curves this year then. Could imagine something like OL Irish being a popular one to be a predicted grade for anyone taking it as their 7th subject and doing all HL otherwise.

Wombatman

Could maybe try to break bands up into 5% slots, like H1.1, H1.2, H2.1, H2.2 and so on. Maybe even quartiles.

Bobtheman

I'm dreading it. I have a few test results and essays but I ain't the most organised teacher in terms of paperwork.
I know what I'm doing for each class but where I put the results is another thing!
In the end I will inflate like a tyre.
Im not a SEC Examiner.
As for knowing this might happen I disagree.
We were fed the mantra of schools will be kept open blah blah blah

ascophyllum

For my LC group, the last time they undertook an assessment which tested various sections of the subject was Christmas of 5th Year. No summer 5th Year exam, no Christmas 6th Year formal, no mocks. Lots of 1 or 2 topic tests but students tend to do well in these assessments. It's only when you group topics together into a long 2 hour exam do you see their true grades. And that was December 2019 as I mentioned. I will have to use these smaller assessments but I can not grade down, only upwards in the absence of information, so using this data I will end up with results in the higher range, most will get H1 to H3.
Great you might say, but every single teacher in the country will be in this same situation, the SEC can not simply give the 2021 LC cohort a greatly inflated set of results compared to every other year (imagine a 2021 candidate in 5 years time going for a job against somebody with a 2019 certificate), so they will have to adjust everyone's grades greatly. There will be H1s being pulled down to H3s in this scenario. They will have an almighty mess.

shesty

Dickie10 wrote: »

biggest issue now is numbers of cases stubbornly high still around 1000 mark. it will take another month to get down to 200 cases best possible scenario but in a month we could be 500-600. what do we do then? i wouldnt be happy at all going into a classroom with 500+ cases a day

I am actually going to email Stephen Donnelly, and Leo Varadkar this week (no point emailing Michael Martin because his email has some sort of filter on and emails bounce back....says a lot...) and ask them that exact question.

What's their plan if we can't get any lower than maybe 500 a week by the end of March? Can they accept that prolonged lockdown periods don't work?(and the likelihood is that is where we will end up as we BARELY achieved 200 a week back in November, and rates are falling extremely slowly here now). What will they do next, when they have nowhere else left to go with their rules??? And I don't mean just in relation to schools, I mean in relation to everything. Especially in the context of vaccinations being rolled out.They can come up with all the new "Living with Covid" plans that they like, but if we can't reach low digit numbers in the dead of winter after a prolonged - very prolonged - lockdown, the plans are meaningless.

Seriously, I want to know. Genuinely. It is time we started calling them out on this.

Bobtheman

To be fair to all in Government they are taking this day by day. They can't say exactly how schools will open until they see the figures towards the end of the week. They cant guess next weeks figures. There has been no definite statement from NPHET yet on schools.
Teachers are born planners-given the alternative is chaos in the classroom but we just have to wait.
As for the SEC-predicated grades the wrong route. They should hold exams in July.
But that rational route has gone because 18-year-olds are upset.
Nevermind the thousands of deaths. The delays in cancer treatment. The businesses that will never open etc.
God forbid-teenagers might just have to be patient!!

shesty

Well they are taking it day by day, but the question of case numbers potentially not improving is bigger than just schools reopening - it impacts society at large. I myself would just like to know that if they do not see the numbers coming down to sub-100 by April some time (which I feel is very aspirational - just my own view), then have they considered what happens next? Track record so far would suggest that contingency planning in general is most certainly not their strong point. I think it is a reasonable question to ask have they given consideration to what might be done in society at large in the event that numbers persist at a level higher than they would be happy with?


Knowing Irish people, while we won't come out and protest against restrictions, we will just start to ignore them and bend them for our own purposes. That point is being reached already. Resulting in a catch 22 where we have all these restrictions in place, but numbers aren't reducing because of the view that they are essentially someone else's problem and can be interpreted as each individual sees fit, given they have gone on so long. We have a fairly long history of that type of behaviour, let's face it.

rainbowtrout

Wombatman wrote: »

Could maybe try to break bands up into 5% slots, like H1.1, H1.2, H2.1, H2.2 and so on. Maybe even quartiles.

You mean like we used to have? A1, A2, B1, B2......

rainbowtrout

shesty wrote: »

Well they are taking it day by day, but the question of case numbers potentially not improving is bigger than just schools reopening - it impacts society at large. I myself would just like to know that if they do not see the numbers coming down to sub-100 by April some time (which I feel is very aspirational - just my own view), then have they considered what happens next? Track record so far would suggest that contingency planning in general is most certainly not their strong point. I think it is a reasonable question to ask have they given consideration to what might be done in society at large in the event that numbers persist at a level higher than they would be happy with?


Knowing Irish people, while we won't come out and protest against restrictions, we will just start to ignore them and bend them for our own purposes. That point is being reached already. Resulting in a catch 22 where we have all these restrictions in place, but numbers aren't reducing because of the view that they are essentially someone else's problem and can be interpreted as each individual sees fit, given they have gone on so long. We have a fairly long history of that type of behaviour, let's face it.

Assuming vaccinations work as they are supposed to, you will see a lot less people dying and being hospitalised. That really is the aim of the vaccination. It doesn't matter so much for the 90% of people who don't have serious medical issues arising from covid.

Given that the deaths are overwhelmingly in the 80+ age category, I would expect to see the death rate decrease in the coming months, and hospitalisations with it.

rainbowtrout

Dickie10 wrote: »

biggest issue now is numbers of cases stubbornly high still around 1000 mark. it will take another month to get down to 200 cases best possible scenario but in a month we could be 500-600. what do we do then? i wouldnt be happy at all going into a classroom with 500+ cases a day

We were in classrooms in October when it was 1200-1500 cases a day....

thegreatescape

rainbowtrout wrote: »

We were in classrooms in October when it was 1200-1500 cases a day....

The new variant makes up a majority of the cases today and is more transmissable, different scenario to that back in October IMO

Rosita

shesty wrote: »

What's their plan if we can't get any lower than maybe 500 a week by the end of March?

Can they accept that prolonged lockdown periods don't work?

.

I doubt their plans will be very sensitive to precise numbers. The overwhelming majority of cases are now the UK variant strain and I'd say caution will be the order of the day.

The issue that "prolonged lockdowns don't work" is debatable. That depends what they are trying to achieve. They seem to work in keeping transmission under some level of control which it seems to me is really their only aim. Sweden went the opposite route and that has ended disastrously.

Wombatman

rainbowtrout wrote: »

You mean like we used to have? A1, A2, B1, B2......

Yes. Only for the purposes of classifying students within a grade. Obviously the substantive grade structure won't change.

This way, unlike last year, multiple students can occupy the same slot. Teachers won't have to agonise over picking one student at the perceived expense of another.