The way forward for LC2021

Mardy Bum

km79 wrote: »

http://twitter.com/newschambers/status/1361764648094171144

Looks like the TUI are trying to get ahead of things again
I would say LC teachers will be predicting grades very soon and that orals , practicals etc are also going to go ahead

TUI (DES subsidiary) trying their best to implement Ruairi Quinn's original conception of the Junior Cycle - school based assessment only.

Wombatman

Aodhán Ó Ríordáin is the worst type of grandstanding, hurler on the ditch, but I did enjoy this soundbite .......

"Unfortunately the Department now resemble a dysfunctional debs committee".

History Queen

Mardy Bum wrote: »

TUI (DES subsidiary) trying their best to implement Ruairi Quinn's original conception of the Junior Cycle - school based assessment only.

To be fair what's the alternative? Don't assess them at all? I was at a TUI meeting where members of the executive were talking about the importance of the JC running to avoid exactly this (school based assessment) and the amount of teachers who responded with comments along the line of "if it means saving the LC let it go".

From the TUI statement:
"The TUI said it was making the request to cancel the Junior Cert exams on the basis that no precedent would be set and that the exams would be reinstated in 2022."

History Queen

Wombatman wrote: »

Aodhán Ó Ríordáin is the worst type of grandstanding, hurler on the ditch, but I did enjoy this soundbite .......

"Unfortunately the Department now resemble a dysfunctional debs committee".

Real hurler on the ditch stuff... the soundbite wasn't exactly his own.

https://twitter.com/AodhanORiordain/status/1361783238251970571?s=19

trihead

Wombatman wrote: »

Aodhán Ó Ríordáin is the worst type of grandstanding, hurler on the ditch, but I did enjoy this soundbite .......

"Unfortunately the Department now resemble a dysfunctional debs committee".

I'm usually no fan of his but his speech a few weeks ago at Norma (Josepha got a mention too) was great to watch -x

PoolDude

There you go, Leo the Leak confirming on prime time more or less what’s happening. LC in June as planned. PG option and sounding like results ahead of the LC exams. JC and LC can’t happen at same time but didn’t manage to leak JC is cancelled - suspect the confirmation they can’t happen together prompted TUI.

Rosita

History Queen wrote: »

To be fair what's the alternative? Don't assess them at all? I was at a TUI meeting where members of the executive were talking about the importance of the JC running to avoid exactly this (school based assessment) and the amount of teachers who responded with comments along the line of "if it means saving the LC let it go".

From the TUI statement:
"The TUI said it was making the request to cancel the Junior Cert exams on the basis that no precedent would be set and that the exams would be reinstated in 2022."

What's the logic for looking to cancel the JC. Like if we are all going to be back in school shortly why couldn't the JC go ahead? That'd be the best way of avoiding an undesirable precedent surely?

Rosita

And while I'm at it, could people stop texting Claire Byrne, Matt Cooper et al with the bright idea of doing Orals over Zoom. The last thing that will stop the Orals happening is the inability of an examiner to sit at the other side of a perspex screen from a student. They're in front of 30 odd every class with no screen most of the time (in my school anyway). Suggesting Zoom is providing a solution for a problem that doesn't exist. Appointing examiners and setting dates - NORMAlly (sorry, couldn't resist!) done months ago, are more pressing issues, assuming they gave an interest in doing the Orals.

Polka_Dot

Rosita wrote: »

What's the logic for looking to cancel the JC. Like if we are all going to be back in school shortly why couldn't the JC go ahead? That'd be the best way of avoiding an undesirable precedent surely?

The Irish Times is reporting it as giving "more time to focus" on LC students, but I'd assume that not having the JC would allow for more social distancing of LC candidates in centres for one

PoolDude

Polka_Dot wrote: »

The Irish Times is reporting it as giving "more time to focus" on LC students, but I'd assume that not having the JC would allow for more social distancing of LC candidates in centres for one

Leo confirmed in prime time the LC and Jc can’t happen at the same time due to space requirements

History Queen

Rosita wrote: »

What's the logic for looking to cancel the JC. Like if we are all going to be back in school shortly why couldn't the JC go ahead? That'd be the best way of avoiding an undesirable precedent surely?

According to the statement, public health advice:


"The TUI has been advised that, based on public health advice, it will not be possible logistically to hold the Junior Certificate and the Leaving Certificate exams in tandem in June in the normal manner."

joebloggs32

Rosita wrote: »

What's the logic for looking to cancel the JC. Like if we are all going to be back in school shortly why couldn't the JC go ahead? That'd be the best way of avoiding an undesirable precedent surely?

If the leaving exams happen it will need more centres and less students in them. So the JC cant run parallel to it.
Last summer there wasn't too much fuss over schools using their own data to give grades, so its the easiest option to go for something similar.

Mardy Bum

History Queen wrote: »

To be fair what's the alternative? Don't assess them at all? I was at a TUI meeting where members of the executive were talking about the importance of the JC running to avoid exactly this (school based assessment) and the amount of teachers who responded with comments along the line of "if it means saving the LC let it go".

From the TUI statement:
"The TUI said it was making the request to cancel the Junior Cert exams on the basis that no precedent would be set and that the exams would be reinstated in 2022."

Considering all the stunts pulled by the TUI executive, especially last week, it is hard to view anything they say or do in good faith.

History Queen

Mardy Bum wrote: »

Considering all the stunts pulled by the TUI executive, especially last week, it is hard to view anything they say or do in good faith.

I criticise them as much as anyone, but on this I don't think they're wrong.

deiseindublin

All the weeks are blurring. Which was last weeks stunt? Saying they'd open next week, or MG throwing ASTI under a bus on radio?

Rosita

History Queen wrote: »

According to the statement, public health advice:


"The TUI has been advised that, based on public health advice, it will not be possible logistically to hold the Junior Certificate and the Leaving Certificate exams in tandem in June in the normal manner."

If a school cannot hold exams for say 200 students in June, how can they accommodate 700 students in school every day?

Rosita

joebloggs32 wrote: »

If the leaving exams happen it will need more centres and less students in them. So the JC cant run parallel to it.
Last summer there wasn't too much fuss over schools using their own data to give grades, so its the easiest option to go for something similar.

Must say that in our case it was a specific summer test for Third Years, rather than a broader collection of data as is implied here.

rainbowtrout

I posted it here a few weeks ago. Stagger the exams. Start the JC a week to 10 days after the LC. Get the big LC exams out of the way so when the minority subjects are on, the number of rooms needed in a school will be reduced. Run the smaller exams for JC at this time. As the LC is down to the stragglers doing Ancient Greek and Latin etc, then run the core subjects for JC. It's not that hard.

Even if they just ran the exams in English, Irish and Maths given that they have been reduced to one paper it wouldn't be hard to fit in a JC of some sort. Where there's a will there's a way.

Rosita

rainbowtrout wrote: »

I posted it here a few weeks ago. Stagger the exams. Start the JC a week to 10 days after the LC. Get the big LC exams out of the way so when the minority subjects are on, the number of rooms needed in a school will be reduced. Run the smaller exams for JC at this time. As the LC is down to the stragglers doing Ancient Greek and Latin etc, then run the core subjects for JC. It's not that hard.

Even if they just ran the exams in English, Irish and Maths given that they have been reduced to one paper it wouldn't be hard to fit in a JC of some sort. Where there's a will there's a way.

But what does the fact this discussion is taking place say about the prospects for schools in between when accommodating less than a third of the school at the same time is considered a problem in June?

Treppen

As I said before, the Junior cert is well dead for this year. No way anyone would want the hassle of doubling up on covid prep for both JC and LC and hiring double staff etc. I know it can be done where there's a hook or by crook way... but you know yourself..

The only reason why nobody can/should mention it is because 3rd year students wouldn't do a tap from now till June if it became official.

TUI are like the clueless eejits trying to capitalise some bit in the media by bringing up the Junior Cert ... meanwhile everyone around the table are starin at them like they're the clueless nerd who reminds the teacher that they were supposed to give a test today.

Meanwhile the #JC2021 will now start demanding clarity and compassion cos they're also stressed and don't know if they should be learning or not.

Stfu about the JC and get the Leaving Cert sorted.

Sorry for the unparliamentary language.

The Junior Cert is a very important exam.

rainbowtrout

Rosita wrote: »

But what does the fact this discussion is taking place say about the prospects for schools in between when accommodating less than a third of the school at the same time is considered a problem in June?

Oh I know, there's no logic to it whatsoever. If you can have 24 Leaving Certs in a classroom on March 1st, then you should be able to have 24 of them in a room doing an exam on June 8th.

PoolDude

For JC last year my child’s school sent a table of how they were calculating grades by subject; weighting for each exam taken over 2nd & 3rd year, cba, online attendance & participation, upcoming summer exam, assignments/class work etc. It kept them engaged and worked well. I’ve another one doing it this year and would be fine with that approach again

One factor - schools were told to weight heavier to work done than what they did after lockdown - not sure how that will work this time

History Queen

Rosita wrote: »

If a school cannot hold exams for say 200 students in June, how can they accommodate 700 students in school every day?

God knows?! Duration of exams a factor maybe? I really don't know. I've given up trying to find logic in the approach to schools.

I think a lot of ye are aware I'm in the TUI but that I've no bother criticise them or acknowledge when ASTI are better on a particular issue, but just looking at last few posts here, the damage having two unions, and therefore a divide in approach by teachers, is so obvious. It's no wonder longer term issues like unequal pay never get sorted with one union constantly vying against the other. And both unions are equally culpable in this regard.

PoolDude

I see the Indo is running this: Students have highest Covid infection rates after health workers in third wave

Its a slightly different angle on the point I’ve made here before around the challenge of putting the most infectious group (older students) together with one of the most infected age groups from a few weeks back (teachers in the 35-45 age group) but highlights the same risk.

noplacehere

There absolutely needs to be one union. No question on that

However I am delighted to see the TUI bring up the JC. They have been completely ignored. Parents are fuming. No harm for one of the unions to get brownie points by being ahead of the media coverage for once. The dogs on the street know the JC is going to be cancelled. We knew it the day the schools closed again. Let it be done in a coherent fashion with time for schools to plan for what form it will take for students before they are back in front of them

Mardy Bum

The Examiner ran a story last night that the March 1st start date being touted was never mentioned at Cabinet. Other ministers have no idea where it came from and points out that there is no plan. Interestingly, no other paper corrected the record on this falsity that is now countrywide.

wirelessdude01

Mardy Bum wrote: »

The Examiner ran a story last night that the March 1st start date being touted was never mentioned at Cabinet. Other ministers have no idea where it came from and points out that there is no plan. Interestingly, no other paper corrected the record on this falsity that is now countrywide.

But remember that Norma is and I quote "a good minister".

Treppen

PoolDude wrote: »

For JC last year my child’s school sent a table of how they were calculating grades by subject; weighting for each exam taken over 2nd & 3rd year, cba, online attendance & participation, upcoming summer exam, assignments/class work etc. It kept them engaged and worked well. I’ve another one doing it this year and would be fine with that approach again

One factor - schools were told to weight heavier to work done than what they did after lockdown - not sure how that will work this time

We did that also but included an online test which they had an hour window to complete. It would have been tricky enough to copy given the nature of the questions and time allowed. Unfortunately some students who worked really hard and engaged with the classes during lockdown really improved but the weighting didn't allow that much for the improvement. If it were the real exam I'm sure they would have shot up a grade or two.

Treppen

noplacehere wrote: »

There absolutely needs to be one union. No question on that

However I am delighted to see the TUI bring up the JC. They have been completely ignored. Parents are fuming. No harm for one of the unions to get brownie points by being ahead of the media coverage for once. The dogs on the street know the JC is going to be cancelled. We knew it the day the schools closed again. Let it be done in a coherent fashion with time for schools to plan for what form it will take for students before they are back in front of them

Right now is not the time to be having talks about the Junior Cert hence why I'd be critical of the TUI in doing a sideshow dance on it just for the media likes.


Once it's announced then that's bye bye to a lot of student engagement. Better to keep them at it and you might at least get a summer test out of it.

Why would parents be fuming anyway?

History Queen

Treppen wrote: »

This is not the time to be having talks about the Junior Cert hence why I'd be critical of the TUI in doing a sideshow dance on it just for the media likes.

Once it's announced then that's bye bye to a lot of student engagement. Better to keep them at it and you might at least get a summer test out of it.

Have to say I disagree with you Treppen. CBAs etc coming up thick and fast. I think JC clarity is needed, it isn't fair to keep them hanging on. And I i don't think engagement will go if a clear assessment structure is put in place for them.

wirelessdude01

noplacehere wrote: »

There absolutely needs to be one union. No question on that

However I am delighted to see the TUI bring up the JC. They have been completely ignored. Parents are fuming. No harm for one of the unions to get brownie points by being ahead of the media coverage for once. The dogs on the street know the JC is going to be cancelled. We knew it the day the schools closed again. Let it be done in a coherent fashion with time for schools to plan for what form it will take for students before they are back in front of them

Most of the lads on the team I manage are meant to be doing thr JC this year. Haven't heard any of the parents giving out about the current situation. Anyone with a brain knows that it isn't happening. I believe the decision to not hold it was made over the Christmas Holidays before we were told to take those initial 3 extra days.

Treppen

History Queen wrote: »

God knows?! Duration of exams a factor maybe? I really don't know. I've given up trying to find logic in the approach to schools.

I think a lot of ye are aware I'm in the TUI but that I've no bother criticise them or acknowledge when ASTI are better on a particular issue, but just looking at last few posts here, the damage having two unions, and therefore a divide in approach by teachers, is so obvious. It's no wonder longer term issues like unequal pay never get sorted with one union constantly vying against the other. And both unions are equally culpable in this regard.

It's the INTOs fault that teacher pay won't get sorted. They keep accepting every pay deal. From what I hear the ASTI and INTO have been approaching the INTO asking for support and one voice on the issue, but no go.

noplacehere

History Queen wrote: »

Have to say I disagree with you Treppen. CBAs etc coming up thick and fast. I think JC clarity is needed, it isn't fair to keep them hanging on. And I i don't think engagement will go if a clear assessment structure is put in place for them.

This is my feelings for too. Like the LCs, junior cycle practicals are supposed to be in a couple of weeks. Classes could actually move into more productive work for cooking and performance for example as opposed to preparing pieces that realistically are never going to be cooked or performed for an examiner. And I don’t think engagement will change totally this far out. Give clarity early, include continuous assessment for the rest of the year and it will be fine. It’s different to the LCs who might actually leave school in my opinion.

History Queen

Treppen wrote: »

It's the INTOs fault that teacher pay won't get sorted. They keep accepting every pay deal. From what I hear the ASTI and INTO have been approaching the INTO asking for support and one voice on the issue, but no go.

I had heard that too re their approach (ASTI and TUI I assume you meant) and also that INTO have no interest in a joint action or approach.

noplacehere

Treppen wrote: »

It's the INTOs fault that teacher pay won't get sorted. They keep accepting every pay deal. From what I hear the ASTI and INTO have been approaching the INTO asking for support and one voice on the issue, but no go.

I totally agree on this one. INTO are the issue on this one. Although the TUI are not coming up smelling of roses on it. I’m always reminded of billy elliot ‘all out together, all out as one’ which we pretty much never get

wirelessdude01

Treppen wrote: »

It's the INTOs fault that teacher pay won't get sorted. They keep accepting every pay deal. From what I hear the ASTI and INTO have been approaching the INTO asking for support and one voice on the issue, but no go.

I've raised same at branch and district level within thr INTO and keep getting told that the issues at primary and secondary level are different and that is the reason why there is no consolidated and uniform approach. I call BS though.

noplacehere

wirelessdude01 wrote: »

I've raised same at branch and district level within thr INTO and keep getting told that the issues T primary and secondary level are different and that is the reason why there is no consolidated and uniform approach. I call BS though.

It’s not as a big an issue in my opinion because they don’t have the hours culture to exacerbate the issue. By and large teachers are either in on full hours or only in for a few days as a sub or on social welfare. The salary shift isn’t as extreme. They don’t have the teachers sitting in the staff room praying for an hour or two subbing so they can pay the bills while getting experience

Rosita

PoolDude wrote: »

For JC last year my child’s school sent a table of how they were calculating grades by subject; weighting for each exam taken over 2nd & 3rd year, cba, online attendance & participation, upcoming summer exam, assignments/class work etc. It kept them engaged and worked well. I’ve another one doing it this year and would be fine with that approach again

One factor - schools were told to weight heavier to work done than what they did after lockdown - not sure how that will work this time

Interesting to see attendance considered as part of an exam grade. That's a big departure from the State exams and while I can could write a book about students' poor attendance I'm not sure I'd favour it in a terminal exam. Wasn't mentioned in our school last year which left it up to individual departments to make assessment decisions but I would expect to be in the minority in a staff meeting if I said that attendance should not be taken into account in a final grade.

I don't see any reason why students can't effectively sit a Junior Cert style exam in May (if schools want that) in the way that other classes sit summer exams. That's assuming we are back at school as normal of course.

History Queen

Rosita wrote: »

Interesting to see attendance considered as part of an exam grade. That's a big departure from the State exams and while I can could write a book about students' poor attendance I'm not sure I'd favour it in a terminal exam. Wasn't mentioned in our school last year which left it up to individual departments to make assessment decisions but I would expect to be in the minority in a staff meeting if I said that attendance should not be taken into account in a final grade.

I don't see any reason why students can't effectively sit a Junior Cert style exam in May (if schools want that) in the way that other classes sit summer exams. That's assuming we are back at school as normal of course.

Just as an aside, attendance is part of the calculation for LCA state exams, albeit as a minimum requirement rather than a %mark. There was a discussion around using attendance at our school too but ultimately we didn't.

Bobtheman

Look its going to be farcical. We all know this.
Anybody in education is an expert at looking two ways at once.
Thus play along. Get it over with.
Lie back and think of Ireland.
Then hope we are not having another discussion next year.
The media have hyped up the LC again.
Nothing on the other more pressing issues in our state like the ruin this has brought to thousands of lives.
The 50 billion we borrowed.

Random sample

I only wanted the cbas officially cancelled at this stage.

I’d like my class to sit an exam.

rainbowtrout

History Queen wrote: »

Just as an aside, attendance is part of the calculation for LCA state exams, albeit as a minimum requirement rather than a %mark. There was a discussion around using attendance at our school too but ultimately we didn't.

I think the big difference is that LCA know this in advance. It would be unfair to look at attendance retrospectively for a component of a JC grade.

shesty

Bobtheman wrote: »

Look its going to be farcical. We all know this.
Anybody in education is an expert at looking two ways at once.
Thus play along. Get it over with.
Lie back and think of Ireland.
Then hope we are not having another discussion next year.
The media have hyped up the LC again.
Nothing on the other more pressing issues in our state like the ruin this has brought to thousands of lives.
The 50 billion we borrowed.

The inevitable cuts to education and childcare that will be required to pay for all of this.....

History Queen

rainbowtrout wrote: »

I think the big difference is that LCA know this in advance. It would be unfair to look at attendance retrospectively for a component of a JC grade.

That was essentially the conclusion we came to.

r93kaey5p2izun

rainbowtrout wrote: »

I think the big difference is that LCA know this in advance. It would be unfair to look at attendance retrospectively for a component of a JC grade.

No more than it would be fair to retrospectively look at Christmas, Summer or even mock exams for a JC or LC grade, I suppose! I wonder did schools who rejected attendance playing a part in weighting a predicted result, similarly reject school exams in playing a part in weighting.

I don't agree with attendance playing a part, but it's strange logic to deem it unfair in retrospect if exams are used for a different purpose than intended in retrospect. It just shows how farcical the whole thing is with no agreed plan, and that we are here again for a second year truly is astounding!

Rosita

Nyla Worried Son wrote: »

No more than it would be fair to retrospectively look at Christmas, Summer or even mock exams for a JC or LC grade, I suppose! I wonder did schools who rejected attendance playing a part in weighting a predicted result, similarly reject school exams in playing a part in weighting.

I don't agree with attendance playing a part, but it's strange logic to deem it unfair in retrospect if exams are used for a different purpose than intended in retrospect. It just shows how farcical the whole thing is with no agreed plan, and that we are here again for a second year truly is astounding!

Obviously the exams are considered in retrospect and that's a debate, but at least they are - for all the caveats that might be around them - measuring academic performance under exam conditions which is what the JC and LC seek to do. Attendance is a different kettle of fish.

km79

http://twitter.com/JMB_Secretariat/status/1362002118631129094

Still making up jobs for the inspectors in a year when schools are crying out for subs
Send them back to the classroom

Wombatman

Schools are safe.

am_zarathustra

km79 wrote: »

http://twitter.com/JMB_Secretariat/status/1362002118631129094

Still making up jobs for the inspectors in a year when schools are crying out for subs
Send them back to the classroom

Who rings this? I'd no more look for advice from them than a randomer on the street. I mean, it would be great craic to inundate them with requests but I really don't have the time!

am_zarathustra

Rosita wrote: »

Obviously the exams are considered in retrospect and that's a debate, but at least they are - for all the caveats that might be around them - measuring academic performance under exam conditions which is what the JC and LC seek to do. Attendance is a different kettle of fish.

We'd have kids kept at home by unfit parents when they are struggling mentally, they'd be good enough students and probably shouldn't be punished because their sisters waster of a bf has got released and left them with the kids. The whole system is arbitrary I agree, but we'd usually manage to get them into school for exams so it's a fairer metric than attendence.

Attendence is also vital to attainment so you might end up doubly punishing by including it.