The way forward for LC2021

wirelessdude01

km79 wrote: »

http://twitter.com/JMB_Secretariat/status/1362002118631129094

Still making up jobs for the inspectors in a year when schools are crying out for subs
Send them back to the classroom

Ring people who haven't taught remotely or in some cases haven't taught for manys years for advice on remote teaching. Couldn't make this rubbish up.

Wombatman

wirelessdude01 wrote: »

Ring people who haven't taught remotely or in some cases haven't taught for manys years for advice on remote teaching. Couldn't make this rubbish up.

I'd hold fire. They might be the point of contact for help and supports around the imminent PG assessment, orals, practical's and project work completion.

I feel for ye, because an LC announcement is due today following by an inevitable sh1tstorm of work over a condensed period. Ye might need to reach out at that point.

deiseindublin

History Queen wrote: »

Just as an aside, attendance is part of the calculation for LCA state exams, albeit as a minimum requirement rather than a %mark. There was a discussion around using attendance at our school too but ultimately we didn't.

I don't really agree with the LCA attendance thing tbh. Maybe give 10% extra above a certain threshold, but any assessment needs to be outcome based. You can have a waster in every day annoying the others in the class but it means Jack Sh*t about what he/she has learned. Their attendance does inhibit others ability to learn though.


I see 1pm news saying that students will have to pick LC exam or CG in advance, with all results released together.

I think that's a horrendous choice for an LC to make. I've an LC in the house and she could well just sit all papers rather than trust the system I'd say.

Honestly, wellbeing and mental health my arse.

rainbowtrout

km79 wrote: »

http://twitter.com/JMB_Secretariat/status/1362002118631129094

Still making up jobs for the inspectors in a year when schools are crying out for subs
Send them back to the classroom

Isn't that what the NCCA, PDST, JCT and various subject associations already do?

am_zarathustra

deiseindublin wrote: »

I don't really agree with the LCA attendance thing tbh. Maybe give 10% extra above a certain threshold, but any assessment needs to be outcome based. You can have a waster in every day annoying the others in the class but it means Jack Sh*t about what he/she has learned. Their attendance does inhibit others ability to learn though.


I see 1pm news saying that students will have to pick LC exam or CG in advance, with all results released together.

I think that's a horrendous choice for an LC to make. I've an LC in the house and she could well just sit all papers rather than trust the system I'd say.

Honestly, wellbeing and mental health my arse.

Jesus the forced choice is worse than anything, if both are standardised it's a guessing game as to where the brightest will go, my guess it to exams but hard to know!!

It needs to be clearly explained how any downgrading will be done too

rainbowtrout

Wombatman wrote: »

I'd hold fire. They might be the point of contact for help and supports around the imminent PG assessment, orals, practical's and project work completion.

I feel for ye, because an LC announcement is due today following by an inevitable sh1tstorm of work over a condensed period. Ye might need to reach out at that point.

The Inspectorate is the last place any teacher would contact if they needed help.

rainbowtrout

deiseindublin wrote: »

I see 1pm news saying that students will have to pick LC exam or CG in advance, with all results released together.

I think that's a horrendous choice for an LC to make. I've an LC in the house and she could well just sit all papers rather than trust the system I'd say.

Honestly, wellbeing and mental health my arse.

I don't think it's a horrendous, it might stop people gaming the system, if a student is serious about sitting the exams, and some students are, only their voices aren't heard on social media, then they can buckle down and do the work. The ones who want a predicted grade are getting exactly what they wanted.

Students can choose the default option and sit the exams. If they want a predicted grade which some have been calling for they can have that too. They don't have to opt for it. If they feel the predicted grades could be a mess, then the exam is the most straightforward, and what they had been working towards the last two years.

noplacehere

I can’t see how else they could have done it to be honest. It’s too early in the year to have them switch off and they would barely have the predicted grades out in time for a student to opt to sit the papers. This is probably the closest scenario to one I’m happy with that’s possible. Though I would be interested to hear how the predicted grades are proposed and when they are submitted. Are we allowed continue to collect data (unlike last year) for example
And are they proposing to do more paper mitigation or is that it?

am_zarathustra

rainbowtrout wrote: »

The Inspectorate is the last place any teacher would contact if they needed help.

Can you imagine?? I'd be better off asking the kids!

am_zarathustra

I wonder is it subject by subject or all or nothing??

r93kaey5p2izun

I wonder what way the guidance for predictions will go this year. Last year the instruction was that only work up to closure could be counted, and the estimated mark was to be based on how they would likely have performed if the disruption caused by Covid had never arisen. That meant teachers had 5th and most of 6th on which to base their decision. And students were protected from the effect of issues engaging with online learning and any personal impacts of Covid. This is a much more difficult prospect this year - to imagine no impact from Covid, I'm not sure it can be done.

Random sample

I don’t see the point of the choice. If a student chooses exams and is named as a close contact in June, what then?

The safest bet for all would be predicted grades.

Wombatman

am_zarathustra wrote: »

I wonder is it subject by subject or all or nothing??

Skip forward to 13 min.

https://www.rte.ie/radio/radioplayer/html5/#/radio1/11282023

Wombatman

Random sample wrote: »

I don’t see the point of the choice. If a student chooses exams and is named as a close contact in June, what then?

The safest bet for all would be predicted grades.

I'm guessing that it will be PGs for all, but if you decide to choose exam, your PG grade will be expunged and it will be exam or nothing from that point on.

Random sample

Wombatman wrote: »

I'm guessing that it will be PGs for all, but if you decide to choose exam, your PG grade will be expunged and it will be exam or nothing from that point on.

And then candidates will get their predictive grade under gdpr, and go to court to switch to it...

Treppen

wirelessdude01 wrote: »

I've raised same at branch and district level within thr INTO and keep getting told that the issues at primary and secondary level are different and that is the reason why there is no consolidated and uniform approach. I call BS though.

Some issues are different but the new pension scheme in both are dire.

Treppen

Random sample wrote: »

And then candidates will get their predictive grade under gdpr, and go to court to switch to it...

Dept can kick forward and tie up the processing of the predictive grade, also it would be in the same manner as doing an FOI on your grade before the usual leaving cert results come out.

Random sample

Treppen wrote: »

Dept can kick forward and tie up the processing of the predictive grade, also it would be in the same manner as doing an FOI on your grade before the usual leaving cert results come out.

I mean after the results are out. They would be entitled (as they were last year to the teacher’s raw grade) to find out what they were assigned. If you got a h2 on predictive and a h4 in the actual exam, there’s a good chance you’d try to switch to the h2.

shesty

Do you think they will have another panic if more students than expected/the bulk of students go for the traditional exam, and they have to figure out how to host it???

rainbowtrout

Random sample wrote: »

I don’t see the point of the choice. If a student chooses exams and is named as a close contact in June, what then?

The safest bet for all would be predicted grades.

Well there is that paper that's run in July for students with bereavements during the exam period. It could be run for students who have to isolate due to covid or test positive in June.

rainbowtrout

shesty wrote: »

Do you think they will have another panic if more students than expected/the bulk of students go for the traditional exam, and they have to figure out how to host it???

No, there will be a cohort who fall into the lazy or disinterested category who will be quite happy to accept a predicted grade rather than sit an exam. I can think of quite a few students who if they were told 'you can have an O5/O6 in Irish now or you can study for the next four months' would take the predicted grade every time. I don't think that will be confined to Ordinary Level either.

r93kaey5p2izun

I wonder also if there are predicted grades, how much advice a teacher will be able to give a student about whether they should drop levels. Last year no such advice was allowed, all communication was banned, but mocks had already happened and usually teachers give their final advice at that stage so students would have already discussed this with teachers. This year that point has not yet been reached. And in a subject like HL Maths there are many hangers on right up until the mocks, hoping for bonus points. I think students are entitled to access that advice about levels to fully inform their decision, that is a normal part of classroom preparation for the LC. But of course it may lead to awkward or difficult situations in a predicted grades scenario.

Random sample

Nyla Worried Son wrote: »

I wonder also if there are predicted grades, how much advice a teacher will be able to give a student about whether they should drop levels. Last year no such advice was allowed, all communication was banned, but mocks had already happened and usually teachers give their final advice at that stage so students would have already discussed this with teachers. This year that point has not yet been reached. And in a subject like HL Maths there are many hangers on right up until the mocks, hoping for bonus points. I think students are entitled to access that advice about levels to fully inform their decision, that is a normal part of classroom preparation for the LC. But of course it may lead to awkward or difficult situations in a predicted grades scenario.

There are many awkward conversations going to come out of students getting a choice.

Random sample

rainbowtrout wrote: »

Well there is that paper that's run in July for students with bereavements during the exam period. It could be run for students who have to isolate due to covid or test positive in June.

It’s the risk though. Would you risk having to study til July if you could get a h6 in February?

Not in all subjects, but I think students will be tactical.

rainbowtrout

Random sample wrote: »

It’s the risk though. Would you risk having to study til July if you could get a h6 in February?

Not in all subjects, but I think students will be tactical.

I don't think students will consider covid in June / potential of an exam in July if they are planning on sitting the exam. If they are going to sit the exam, I'd assume they're going in with a 'give it their best shot' mentality. If the thought of delaying the exam for 3 weeks due to potential covid in June was a factor they'll have a string of other reasons to opt for predicted grades before they get that far down the list.


I do think some students will play it tactical and drop their weakest subjects or subjects where they expect a middle of the road grade which is unlikely to be downgraded.

I'm not sure what the stats were on downgrades last year, but I can't imagine there were heaps of H5/H6 grades downgraded in comparison to H1/H2s. Anyone taking 5 or 6 HL exams and has one OL that they don't plan on counting for points doesn't benefit from sitting that exam points wise.

Rosita

Nyla Worried Son wrote: »

I wonder also if there are predicted grades, how much advice a teacher will be able to give a student about whether they should drop levels. Last year no such advice was allowed, all communication was banned, but mocks had already happened and usually teachers give their final advice at that stage so students would have already discussed this with teachers. This year that point has not yet been reached. And in a subject like HL Maths there are many hangers on right up until the mocks, hoping for bonus points. I think students are entitled to access that advice about levels to fully inform their decision, that is a normal part of classroom preparation for the LC. But of course it may lead to awkward or difficult situations in a predicted grades scenario.

In the Maths scenario where there is a very specific issue regarding bonus points, a teacher will have to more or less tell a student they will get a fail mark to get them to drop. It seems strange to qualify for bonus points when you don't actually have to go through the process of sitting an exam.

Wombatman

shesty wrote: »

Do you think they will have another panic if more students than expected/the bulk of students go for the traditional exam, and they have to figure out how to host it???

Reading between the lines it's pretty clear that the department aren't prepared to host a large scale leaving cert this year, with or without a Covid backdrop. I expect the PGs will be available and attractive enough to coax students away from the exam.

am_zarathustra

Rosita wrote: »

In the Maths scenario where there is a very specific issue regarding bonus points, a teacher will have to more or less tell a student they will get a fail mark to get them to drop. It seems strange to qualify for bonus points when you don't actually have to go through the process of sitting an exam.

I teach two LC subjects, the other one Kids know their level and there won't be much alteration or difficulty in the conversation. Maths is a nightmare, the bonus points make it very attractive. The issue will be if staff let kids directly or indirectly know their grades and then they are downgraded (when actually, this will happen for a huge amount of kids) asking staff to do PG and then sit in a room with kids is a bit mad, also when do the PG group cut and run? Am I teaching a couple of kids who choose to sit the exam? I really hope these issues have been sorted and they aren't just going to release something half baked.

Wombatman

am_zarathustra wrote: »

I really hope these issues have been sorted and they aren't just going to release something half baked.

I'd take half baked but I'm expecting a dogs dinner.

Bobtheman

https://waterfordwhispersnews.com/2021/02/17/at-this-point-you-cant-help-but-admire-governments-staggering-ineptitude-confirms-nation/

I think this is spot on. Unless you are on drugs /very drunk nothing you can imagine will be close to the farce they will soon announce.
Too much rational thought here posters. Give it up.

rainbowtrout

And here we go

https://www.rte.ie/news/education/2021/0217/1197572-leaving-cert-talks/

wirelessdude01

rainbowtrout wrote: »

And here we go

https://www.rte.ie/news/education/2021/0217/1197572-leaving-cert-talks/

So pick your better subjects for PG and sit the harder ones or am I totally misreading it?

French Toast

The Junior Cert has been cancelled.

Gonna spend the rest of the year on a Netflix binge with my 3rd Years so :P

Alqua

I saw somewhere (will look for link) that students could opt for both a predicted grade and an exam, getting the higher of the 2 grades at the end. Surely the exam would take precedence? Can't see it in that article.

Edit: This wasn't where I saw it but Gavan Reilly has it here:
https://twitter.com/gavreilly/status/1362080602602827782

rainbowtrout

So basically the same as last year except exams happen in June, and practicals and orals will happen as well.

Alqua

rainbowtrout wrote: »

So basically the same as last year except exams happen in June, and practicals and orals will happen as well.

Where are you seeing practicals and orals mentioned?

rainbowtrout

Alqua wrote: »

Where are you seeing practicals and orals mentioned?

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/education/leaving-cert-students-to-have-choice-between-predicted-grades-and-exams-1.4487319

Alqua

rainbowtrout wrote: »

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/education/leaving-cert-students-to-have-choice-between-predicted-grades-and-exams-1.4487319

Thanks, can just make it out above the paywall! It'll be interesting to see what "different formats" these will be, especially for music where little or no preparation could be done.

PoolDude

wirelessdude01 wrote: »

So pick your better subjects for PG and sit the harder ones or am I totally misreading it?

I'd have suggested the opposite. Try lock in decent grades in weaker subjects and don't risk it going wrong and then nail the other 3 or 4 to try get H1's, e.g. if you find the languages difficult take the PG and try get H1's in the subjects that are more black & white.

LW2018

We really need clarity now on the orals and practical exams. It will determine the focus for language teachers upon the return to the virtual classroom come Monday. We need to know this timeline.

No harm with the JC. I think I will move back to basics with them and improve on areas with minimal focus on those dreadful Junior Cycle learning outcomes and unnecessary topics. Will keep them focused and get them somewhat ready for senior cycle - looking at sample texts etc and build on comprehension skills.

For those who opt for CG, are we assessing the full class group - grades to be used in the CG process and the others are just gaining exam experience / skills? I think, personally, they need to made choose one option or the other and not be given the best of two results. Make their decision and stick to it. And let them be aware about the standardisation process that will take place too - the teacher's calculated grade is highly unlikely to be used exactly as it is. Interesting to see how all this plays out... a lot left to be answered.

Smacruairi

3 things -1 will an algorithm be applied to PGs like last year? If so, do we know if all the errors are sorted, and if they tweaked it for high achieving schools like St Kilians etc.

2. When are the orals to take place etc?

3. Wonder how this goes down with students?

wirelessdude01

PoolDude wrote: »

I'd have suggested the opposite. Try lock in decent grades in weaker subjects and don't risk it going wrong and then nail the other 3 or 4 to try get H1's, e.g. if you find the languages difficult take the PG and try get H1's in the subjects that are more black & white.

Funny how everyone will have a different view on this.

Wombatman

Alqua wrote: »

I saw somewhere (will look for link) that students could opt for both a predicted grade and an exam, getting the higher of the 2 grades at the end. Surely the exam would take precedence? Can't see it in that article.

Edit: This wasn't where I saw it but Gavan Reilly has it here:
https://twitter.com/gavreilly/status/1362080602602827782

Leaving Cert 2021 pupils to be offered a predicted grade, with option to sit physical exams if wanted - the higher grade from the two will prevail

So my understanding from this is:
All students to be offered predicted grade.

Then students will be offered and option to sit the exam if wanted.

Best result will count obviously.

So timeline is:
First predicted grade given to student.
Then student decides to sit exam.

Is this how everybody else is reading the situation?

scrubs33

wirelessdude01 wrote: »

So pick your better subjects for PG and sit the harder ones or am I totally misreading it?

The devil is in the detail as they say but to be honest this is turning out like Who Wants To Be A Millionaire at the moment: 'Do you want to set your safety net at 2 H1s and and O3 or will you take a chance in a written exam?'
'Can I phone the Minister please Jeremy?'
I think mid term and the absence of Zoom is getting to me!!

wirelessdude01

Wombatman wrote: »

So my understanding from this is:
All students to be offered predicted grade.

Then students will be offered and option to sit the exam if wanted.

Best result will count obviously.

So timeline is:
First predicted grade given to student.
Then student decides to sit exam.

Is this how everybody else is reading the situation?

Gavan Reilly seems to think that CG/PG will be unknown before written exam.

Smacruairi

Either way I can still see most teachers erring on the side of caution and predicted grades will be like the English variant, with 40% higher. Literally no reason not to say to the kid "don't drop to pass, I'm sure you can get 40%" and then let them sit the paper also and sure that's their double chance of passing

am_zarathustra

wirelessdude01 wrote: »

Gavan Reilly seems to think that CG/PG will be unknown before written exam.

Then I'll be recommending every kid in my class sits the exams. Got stung last year, the most unlikely student to underperform got hit in a couple of subject, not risking that again. There will be mass inflation in PGs this year so a lot of students could be effected

I can see Irish and maybe Maths having a few just take the PG and then the usual messer's but even the messer's might do better in an exam, with the last term push and all I can't "predict" that but it happens

Wombatman

wirelessdude01 wrote: »

Gavan Reilly seems to think that CG/PG will be unknown before written exam.

Crazy. No choice then. Have to sit exam or risk being shafted.

wirelessdude01

Really feel for everyone who will be caught up in this process. Devil will be in the detail of said process. Wonder when will everything be fully known?

Wombatman

wirelessdude01 wrote: »

Gavan Reilly seems to think that CG/PG will be unknown before written exam.

This means students will automatically receive a calculated grade for each subject they take based on their previous work and an assessment from their teacher.

They will then also have the option of sitting a physical exam for their subjects

https://www.independent.ie/irish-news/education/leaving-cert-students-will-have-option-to-sit-exam-or-have-calculated-grades-while-the-junior-cert-has-been-cancelled-40103038.html

Again sounds like PGs first.

Then option of exam if not happy.