The way forward for LC2021

Random sample

wirelessdude01 wrote: »

Really feel for everyone who will be caught up in this process. Devil will be in the detail of said process. Wonder when will everything be fully known?

August. Because no matter what is decided it will be changed after the fact.

am_zarathustra

Ha sure we are still waiting to find out what happened last year!!!!

Polka_Dot

Wombatman wrote: »

https://www.independent.ie/irish-news/education/leaving-cert-students-will-have-option-to-sit-exam-or-have-calculated-grades-while-the-junior-cert-has-been-cancelled-40103038.html

Again sounds like PGs first.

Then option of exam if not happy.

From the IT:

"The Government and unions are keen to encourage as many students as possible to sit the written exams and remain engaged with classes until the end of the school year.

They believe the fact that students will not have sight of their calculated grade results in advance of the June exams will provide an incentive for most students to sit the written papers as an “insurance policy”."

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/education/q-a-what-kind-of-choice-will-students-have-in-this-year-s-leaving-cert-1.4487662

r93kaey5p2izun

So a predicted grade for all, you choose whether or not to sit the exam without knowing the PG, and then when results come out in August you keep the higher of the grades ifv you sat an exam?

rainbowtrout

PoolDude wrote: »

I'd have suggested the opposite. Try lock in decent grades in weaker subjects and don't risk it going wrong and then nail the other 3 or 4 to try get H1's, e.g. if you find the languages difficult take the PG and try get H1's in the subjects that are more black & white.

Ya the winter exams supports that theory

rainbowtrout

Nyla Worried Son wrote: »

So a predicted grade for all, you choose whether or not to sit the exam without knowing the PG, and then when results come out in August you keep the higher of the grades ifv you sat an exam?

Yes. So it’s a gamble not sitting the exam and maybe not being happy with the predicted grade, but students can all move on together rather than sitting exams 6 months later

wirelessdude01

Be interesting to see the students reaction to this.

djemba djemba

So everyone gets a pg but has the option to do the exam and is given the highest. Exams in June.

r93kaey5p2izun

rainbowtrout wrote: »

Yes. So it’s a gamble not sitting the exam and maybe not being happy with the predicted grade, but students can all move on together rather than sitting exams 6 months later

Right. My main query then would be about levels. Will students be allowed to choose the level of the exam on the day as normal. I think any change to that would be unfair. So say they opt for HL predicted grade with risk of failing, can they then sit OL in the exam as an insurance policy?

Random sample

Nyla Worried Son wrote: »

Right. My main query then would be about levels. Will students be allowed to choose the level of the exam on the day as normal. I think any change to that would be unfair. So say they opt for HL predicted grade with risk of failing, can they then sit OL in the exam as an insurance policy?

Those are the kind of points that need to be considered before a full announcement. There’s a huge amount of work to be done on this.

r93kaey5p2izun

Yes, I also think, as I mentioned earlier, that what exactly teachers are asked to predict will be crucial. Will it be the most likely result a student would achieve with no impact from Covid disruption - as instructed last year - or what they would most likely achieve this June in light of all that has actually happened? These are very different.

Wombatman

It's like The Prisoner's Dilemma or Deal or no Deal.

"Would you like to keep what's in your PG box, or choose what is behind door number 1"?

wirelessdude01

Nyla Worried Son wrote: »

Yes, I also think, as I mentioned earlier, that what exactly teachers are asked to predict will be crucial. Will it be the most likely result a student would achieve with no impact from Covid disruption - as instructed last year - or what they would most likely achieve this June in light of all that has actually happened? These are very different.

Also the weighting applied to the various components will be key.

Mrsmum

wirelessdude01 wrote: »

Be interesting to see the students reaction to this.

I think they will be very happy. They will get their Pg and then the exam is sortof like doubling their chances with no risk. My son thinks he will do all the exams because why not kind of thing except for English and Irish because he thinks they are very subjective subjects and isn't going to bother with their workload.

History Queen

Wombatman wrote: »

It's like The Prisoner's Dilemma or Deal or no Deal.

"Would you like to keep what's in your PG box, or choose what is behind door number 1"?

But it isn't really as they keep their predicted grade and if they sit the written exam they get the better of the two. It's no risk. Makes the LC much lower stakes, I wonder will that positively affect attainment?

History Queen

Mrsmum wrote: »

I think they will be very happy. The will get their Pg and then the exam is sortof like doubling their chances with no risk. My son thinks he will do all the exams because why not kind of thing except for English and Irish because he thinks they are very subjective subjects and is going to bother with their workload.

I'm hearing similar from relations and neighbours. A lot talking about only sitting their best 6.

jayo76

If a teacher gives a CG which varied wildly from what a student who decides to sit the exam gets do they still get to keep the CG? Say a teacher puts two students down for an inflated H3 and they got H7 in thd exam?

I too will be advising as many of mine as possible to take the exam, I have an excellent group for History where I would think 9 out of 16 would be capable of a H2 or H1, I will be givimg these as CG. However I will advise them to take the exam as I have no faith in random downgrading, school profiling or the moderation process.

Wombatman

km79

wirelessdude01 wrote: »

Be interesting to see the students reaction to this.

Clarity choice and compassion is what they wanted and what we have gotten .
Their voice has been heard loudly in this process .
It’s time now for the SEC to take hold of the process .
Exams are exams for a reason .

History Queen

jayo76 wrote: »

If a teacher gives a CG which varied wildly from what a student who decides to sit the exam gets do they still get to keep the CG? Say a teacher puts two students down for an inflated H3 and they got H7 in thd exam?

I too will be advising as many of mine as possible to take the exam, I have an excellent group for History where I would think 9 out of 16 would be capable of a H2 or H1, I will be givimg these as CG. However I will advise them to take the exam as I have no faith in random downgrading, school profiling or the moderation process.

Not sure what formular the CG will go through this year but they are bringing in legislation to prevent teacher grade being revealled so its only the "post-algorithm" grade the students will see. I'll try find link I read that on there now

History Queen

Wombatman wrote: »

They're not trading anything in?!

April Lily

It was mentioned on newstalk that the minister intends to tender a new calculated grades algorithm model. If that’s the case, I can’t see students receiving their calculated grade in advance of sitting June exams. I’m also wondering if we will be restricted to using the data already collated or if data generated on our return can be used... ?

inbetweentea

With CG - does anyone have any idea when they would be issued by teachers? Now or May/June?

Wombatman

History Queen wrote: »

But it isn't really as they keep their predicted grade and if they sit the written exam they get the better of the two. It's no risk. Makes the LC much lower stakes, I wonder will that positively affect attainment?

The assumption was that there would be a choice between doing exam and PGs. The way this is structured, logic dictates, that you have to sit exam.

History Queen

April Lily wrote: »

It was mentioned on newstalk that the minister intends to tender a new calculated grades algorithm model. If that’s the case, I can’t see students receiving their calculated grade in advance of sitting June exams. I’m also wondering if we will be restricted to using the data already collated or if data generated on our return can be used... ?

They aren't getting the calculated grade until results day. They will get calculated grade or exam grade whichever is higher (or all calculated if don't sit exams)

History Queen

Wombatman wrote: »

The assumption was that there would be a choice between doing exam and PGs. The way this is structured, logic dictates, that you have to sit exam.

You don't have to sit exams. You can just get your calculated grade.

jayo76

History Queen wrote: »

Not sure what formular the CG will go through this year but they are bringing in legislation to prevent teacher grade being revealled so its only the "post-algorithm" grade the students will see. I'll try find link I read that on there now

Even more reason for me as a teacher to advise them to take the exam if I think they are H1 or H2. Otherwise they could get a CG of H3 where unfortunately as they only see the post algorithm grade, they could believe that I shafted them.

History Queen

jayo76 wrote: »

Even more reason for me as a teacher to advise them to take the exam if I think they are H1 or H2. Otherwise they could get a CG of H3 where unfortunately as they only see the post algorithm grade, they could believe that I shafted them.

Absolutely. I'd advise all students to sit exams then they get the best of both.

Wombatman

History Queen wrote: »

You don't have to sit exams. You can just get your calculated grade.

What you you advise your students to do? What would you do if you were an LC student?

am_zarathustra

Wombatman wrote: »

What you you advise your students to do? What would you do if you were an LC student?

Both, I'll be talking to them tomorrow probably. Pressure slightly off but a chance for improvement and to avoid a random downgrade.......it's a no brainer

I can see them opting out of one or two exams

The HL OL CG versus paper thing will be interesting!

jayo76

History Queen wrote: »

Absolutely. I'd advise all students to sit exams then they get the best of both.

Absolutely now think that yes every student who has put in the work and I suppose even those that mightn't have should take the exam. They have a free shot to both outperform the CG and take any risk of being messed around by the moderation process out of it.

There will be students who will just take the CG risk and fair enough thats their choice too.

km79

Orals and practicals going ahead
Don’t know how Dont know when as the song goes

The next outcry will be about the exam papers . Length , choice etc
Will the predicted grades be based on normal exams or truncated exams .....

r93kaey5p2izun

I would recommend they sit the exams. From a HL Maths point of view I would say those clinging on for bonus points should sit the OL paper as a safety net if allowed.

km79

Nyla Worried Son wrote: »

I would recommend they sit the exams. From a HL Maths point of view I would say those clinging on for bonus points should sit the OL paper as a safety net if allowed.

I think it would be absolutely ridiculous tbh if they are allowed do that

am_zarathustra

km79 wrote: »

Orals and practicals going ahead
Don’t know how Dont know when as the song goes

The next outcry will be about the exam papers . Length , choice etc
Will the predicted grades be based on normal exams or truncated exams .....

I assume the alterations already made stand plus maybe extra? I'm not sure it's needed, I'm actually grand with the changes as they stand but it's subject specific

km79 wrote: »

I think it would be absolutely ridiculous tbh if they are allowed do that

I'd be worried about this, but I'll tell my students to avail of the loophole if it exists. Given the SEC were in the talks this year I'd have more confidence issues like this will have been considered

r93kaey5p2izun

km79 wrote: »

I think it would be absolutely ridiculous tbh if they are allowed do that

I disagree. Students have always been allowed to choose their level on the day and I think it would be absolutely unfair to change that for exams this year of all years.

Rosita

Wombatman wrote: »

The assumption was that there would be a choice between doing exam and PGs. The way this is structured, logic dictates, that you have to sit exam.

Not necessarily. Some will taken the calculated grade in a subject where they probably would not improve easily - maybe HL Irish or Maths , and concentrate energy on a smaller number of subjects. You'll have a mix - some who'll be happy at the prospect of no exams - many will be heading for say PLC courses where grades won't matter to them. (These don't gave the same profile as the 'Medicine in Trinity' brigade but there's more of them)

Others will see it as a chance to reduce workload and aim for their highest possible grade in a couple of subjects. There are many different approaches which are logical. Under a CAO system which counts six best subjects it would seem illogical to sit all exams anyway.

am_zarathustra

I'd imagine you'd be best sticking with exams in 4/5 if your a good student to maximize but there are so many permutations that it will be very individual the decisions that are made.

Wombatman

As requested by the student representatives we explored thoroughly the option of providing the SEC-Accredited Grades to students in advance of the written examinations, but this option is not possible.

https://www.gov.ie/en/press-release/e882f-minister-foley-confirms-leaving-certificate-2021-written-coursework-oral-and-practical-performance-examinations-will-be-held-and-a-corresponding-process-of-grades-accredited-by-state-examinations-commission-will-be-available-to-students/

History Queen

Wombatman wrote: »

What you you advise your students to do? What would you do if you were an LC student?

Do the exam. But there is no compulsion.

Mmmml80

Orals and practicals to take place over 2 days during the Easter break, according to Norma on Six One. How’s this going to happen? Did she mean over two weeks maybe?

Wombatman

History Queen wrote: »

Do the exam. But there is no compulsion.

There is no compulsion to eat but logic dictates that you should.

Hobson's choice.

History Queen

Wombatman wrote: »

There is no compulsion to eat but logic dictates that you should.

Hobson's choice.

What are you on about? Do you think students are being effectively forced to sit exams? They aren't and there will be students that won't.

am_zarathustra

Mmmml80 wrote: »

Orals and practicals to take place over 2 days during the Easter break, according to Norma on Six One. How’s this going to happen? Did she mean over two weeks maybe?

I assume she meant 2 weeks, they need to recruit sharpish but they will get more this way, principals weren't going to release during school time

Str8outtaWuhan

That's the LC gone then. Teachers assessing students for state certification, no way back from this. Every year it will be more focus on CA and PG and less on terminal exams. until finally June is just another month in schools. Can't believe unions accepting this.

Random sample

Str8outtaWuhan wrote: »

That's the LC gone then. Teachers assessing students for state certification, no way back from this. Every year it will be more focus on CA and PG and less on terminal exams. until finally June is just another month in schools. Can't believe unions accepting this.

Where are you getting any of that from? Are you a teacher?

wirelessdude01

Str8outtaWuhan wrote: »

That's the LC gone then. Teachers assessing students for state certification, no way back from this. Every year it will be more focus on CA and PG and less on terminal exams. until finally June is just another month in schools. Can't believe unions accepting this.

This would not surprise me.

sue97

My worry is that points will go through the roof and great leaving cert results will be deflated e.g. Biomed in TCD was 509 in 2018 and 543 last year. Law and Business 2018 - 577 and 2020 - 601.

Str8outtaWuhan

Random sample wrote: »

Where are you getting any of that from? Are you a teacher?

Nope, but I live with one. unions said PG a once off last yr and SEC were not running it last yr . This yr PG back and SEC running yet. adding 2+2 it makes sense. Plus they will be expecting subject teachers to be on site for practicals in Easter? so thats your easter hols gone.

Rosita

am_zarathustra wrote: »

I assume she meant 2 weeks, they need to recruit sharpish but they will get more this way, principals weren't going to release during school time

I expect the matter of the orals will be revisited, for many reasons.