The way forward for LC2021

Wombatman

What does subject to final agreement mean?

Wombatman

Letter to Second Level Principals.

Mardy Bum

Wombatman wrote: »

What does subject to final agreement mean?

I'd say it hadn't been agreed by unions. Shock horror!

Rosita

Nyla Worried Son wrote: »

Personally I don't think it's acceptable for JMB to issue any such instruction unless it is an official SEC/DES decision applying to every school.

But the Mocks are an unofficial undertaking by individual schools. Some don't do them. Others correct their own. The SEC/DES is never going to issue a blanket instruction regarding Mocks which are provided by a private company. I'm not saying I agree or disagree with the JMB's thinking but I think they are entitled to make the call.

Icsics

Rosita wrote: »

But the Mocks are an unofficial undertaking by individual schools. Some don't do them. Others correct their own. The SEC/DES is never going to issue a blanket instruction regarding Mocks which are provided by a private company. I'm not saying I agree or disagree with the JMB's thinking but I think they are entitled to make the call.

But are they? Where’s the teachers voice in all of this? Make no mistake JMB are not our friends, they are a quasi union for management

Rosita

Icsics wrote: »

But are they? Where’s the teachers voice in all of this? Make no mistake JMB are not our friends, they are a quasi union for management

I don't really see the teachers' voice anywhere. I've seen many education discussions on TV, heard on Radio, and read in newspapers. The one thing all commentators have in common is that they don't work in a classroom. It's a fair question but it's such established reality now that it hardly seem relevant to ask unfortunately.

Panga

Having just read the DES letter on the Leaving Cert do I understand this correctly:

Oral exams to be run in school by teachers who have not been trained to run oral exams
These exams take place during Easter holidays
Teachers give up their holidays to work for free
Teachers examine students in their own school, there is no detail yet but I expect we'll be told to give them a provisional grade and the SEC will give a final grade.
There is no mention of mask wearing so I'm assuming students take off their mask for the exam putting teachers at greater risk

It's clear from the fact that the DES didn't recruit oral examiners this year that they had no intention of running these exams. The unions insisted on them, which I agree with, so the DES agreed to them them but managed to get the unions to agree to teachers working for free and putting themselves at greater risk. The DES should be facilitating this important element of the LC language exam.

The fact that teachers will have no training completely undermines the integrity of the exam.

noplacehere

Icsics wrote: »

But are they? Where’s the teachers voice in all of this? Make no mistake JMB are not our friends, they are a quasi union for management

Is there any way to confirm that the JMB are saying to cancel mocks?

r93kaey5p2izun

Rosita wrote: »

But the Mocks are an unofficial undertaking by individual schools. Some don't do them. Others correct their own. The SEC/DES is never going to issue a blanket instruction regarding Mocks which are provided by a private company. I'm not saying I agree or disagree with the JMB's thinking but I think they are entitled to make the call.

Yes, I know mocks are an unofficial undertaking. But DES did issue a blanket instruction on mocks last year - you can use them, just don't give them undue weighting. Personally I don't think it should be acceptable for a management body to dictate to teachers how they carry out teaching, learning and assessment, without consultation, and without notice.

r93kaey5p2izun

noplacehere wrote: »

Is there any way to confirm that the JMB are saying to cancel mocks?

Surely, even if saying not to use them for grading, they are not saying to cancel them! That's hardly fair for students who want to sit the exam and had expected to do mocks as normal preparation.

Icsics

noplacehere wrote: »

Is there any way to confirm that the JMB are saying to cancel mocks?

No, they’re not saying cancel them just that they cannot be used for ACs

am_zarathustra

Icsics wrote: »

No, they’re not saying cancel them just that they cannot be used for ACs

How can they say that when the department haven't issued guidelines. If this is true, and given there is no documentation it's only heresay now, they are very much jumping the gun and outside of their remit. The SEC are involved, I'm happy to ignore everyone else based on every interaction I've had in education

jayo76

am_zarathustra wrote: »

How can they say that when the department haven't issued guidelines. If this is true, and given there is no documentation it's only heresay now, they are very much jumping the gun and outside of their remit. The SEC are involved, I'm happy to ignore everyone else based on every interaction I've had in education

We had a staff meeting today, the principal read a document to us which stated that "a limited amount of testing may take place up until May 14th but that Mocks Data must not be used in the process of coming to your assessed grade". Is this the official DES position now? The Principal when asked, said that this had been communication from the JMB as opposed to official Department Communication as of yet.

km79

That’s a lot of guidance to follow ........

am_zarathustra

What's the principal doing reading out advice like that when the department/SEC have not issued guidelines. The JMB would want to colour inside their own lines if they've sent stuff like this out. Maybe it's the principal justifying not running them? Seems mad to me though.

Bobtheman

Be cautious. The department might down grade your accredited grade. They are a department of flip flops.
I have heard anybody doing orals will be paid to say otherwise is Farcical. Sure who would do it?
As for the JC I'm not getting bogged down in long calculations. I know who the honours are now.
As for the LC same. It's all farcical and I'm going to inflate because you can bet the department will flip flop.
Thus let them deflate my grades
Because my guess is just a guess and to dress it up as anything else is a joke

acequion

Panga wrote: »

Having just read the DES letter on the Leaving Cert do I understand this correctly:

Oral exams to be run in school by teachers who have not been trained to run oral exams
These exams take place during Easter holidays
Teachers give up their holidays to work for free
Teachers examine students in their own school, there is no detail yet but I expect we'll be told to give them a provisional grade and the SEC will give a final grade.
There is no mention of mask wearing so I'm assuming students take off their mask for the exam putting teachers at greater risk

It's clear from the fact that the DES didn't recruit oral examiners this year that they had no intention of running these exams. The unions insisted on them, which I agree with, so the DES agreed to them them but managed to get the unions to agree to teachers working for free and putting themselves at greater risk. The DES should be facilitating this important element of the LC language exam.

The fact that teachers will have no training completely undermines the integrity of the exam.

I can't see how something like that can be forced through unless all the language teachers in the country are utter eejits.

Firstly it's Easter holidays, secondly it's not during tuition time. Therefore after hours. No worker can be forced to work after hours. I'm a French teacher and I've an LC group this year and no way am I playing ball with that nonsense.

I'd be very surprised as well if the unions agreed to it and would urge everyone to get on to their union.

I would imagine this is one element of the overall plan that will tweak and morph into something more workable. It may still be at Easter and after hours but probably on a voluntary and paid basis.

wirelessdude01

acequion wrote: »

I can't see how something like that can be forced through unless all the language teachers in the country are utter eejits.

Firstly it's Easter holidays, secondly it's not during tuition time. Therefore after hours. No worker can be forced to work after hours. I'm a French teacher and I've an LC group this year and no way am I playing ball with that nonsense.

I'd be very surprised as well if the unions agreed to it and would urge everyone to get on to their union.

I would imagine this is one element of the overall plan that will tweak and morph into something more workable. It may still be at Easter and after hours but probably on a voluntary and paid basis.

Or doesn't happen at all.

Panga

wirelessdude01 wrote: »

Or doesn't happen at all.

And now it will be teachers fault if the orals don't run...

Bobtheman

Nothing has been officially published about Easter and orals. Hold your horses.
They won't be frog marching in unpaid teacher's. Get a grip people.

Panga

Bobtheman wrote: »

Nothing has been officially published about Easter and orals. Hold your horses.
They won't be frog marching in unpaid teacher's. Get a grip people.

Was the DES letter today not official? Genuinely asking.

acequion

Yes but Panga look at the wording! Nothing anywhere that would imply obligation to do this. Because quite simply you cannot force any worker to work during holidays or to work for free. Even though the whole country now seems to expect teachers to do just that :rolleyes:

But teachers need to hold tough on this one and refuse. Apart at all from us being under no obligation to work when on leave, our getting involved at all puts us in a very precarious position. What if the kid has an issue with the way the exam is conducted or a myriad of other complaints he might level at the hapless teacher roped into conducting the exam. Even the very idea is ludicrous.

We'll have enough on our plate working out the PG. Let's keep well away from this!

Panga

acequion wrote: »

Yes but Panga look at the wording! Nothing anywhere that would imply obligation to do this. Because quite simply you cannot force any worker to work during holidays or to work for free. Even though the whole country now seems to expect teachers to do just that :rolleyes:

But teachers need to hold tough on this one and refuse. Apart at all from us being under no obligation to work when on leave, our getting involved at all puts us in a very precarious position. What if the kid has an issue with the way the exam is conducted or a myriad of other complaints he might level at the hapless teacher roped into conducting the exam. Even the very idea is ludicrous.

We'll have enough on our plate working out the PG. Let's keep well away from this!

I agree with everything you've said.


However I think teachers will feel pressure from management to run the orals "for the good of the school". Many will agree to do it just to keep the peace. It will be argued that we're giving them a predicted grade anyway so why not examine their oral exam.

km79

Bobtheman wrote: »

Nothing has been officially published about Easter and orals. Hold your horses.
They won't be frog marching in unpaid teacher's. Get a grip people.

It will be paid by SEC

acequion

Panga wrote: »

I agree with everything you've said.


However I think teachers will feel pressure from management to run the orals "for the good of the school". Many will agree to do it just to keep the peace. It will be argued that we're giving them a predicted grade anyway so why not examine their oral exam.

Plenty of arguments against that. Like I say the teachers are expected to do the PG side of things but not the state exams. So why mess with the orals which are state exams and why put language teachers only in this position! I would also see both unions taking issue on this and members need to pressure them so it would really take an asshole of a school manager to force or manipulate a teacher into doing something as big as this. I'd be more afraid that you'd have a big amount of silly and possibly non unionised teachers willing to put their heads on the block. And yes I know that young teachers want to show eagerness and are vulnerable etc etc but there are limits!

Treppen

Icsics wrote: »

No, they’re not saying cancel them just that they cannot be used for ACs

Ya but that's just the JMB flexing, at the end of the the DES said that teachers use their Professional Judgement.
Maybe the JMB mightn't want principals being in the position of taking responsibly for having students sitting together in 2:30 hrs stints for a week.
But what I heard was " Mocks MUST NOT run".

History Queen

Treppen wrote: »

Ya but that's just the JMB flexing, at the end of the the DES said that teachers use their Professional Judgement.
Maybe the JMB mightn't want principals being in the position of taking responsibly for having students sitting together in 2:30 hrs stints for a week.
But what I heard was " Mocks MUST NOT run".

Seems unfair to students sitting the exam to prohibit them for a practice go at a full length paper.

am_zarathustra

Treppen wrote: »

Ya but that's just the JMB flexing, at the end of the the DES said that teachers use their Professional Judgement.
Maybe the JMB mightn't want principals being in the position of taking responsibly for having students sitting together in 2:30 hrs stints for a week.
But what I heard was " Mocks MUST NOT run".

I've two hours blocks.....the kids might end up staying a bit late one day as the work to be completed in silence for that way will actually take a little longer. The JMB are absolutely outside their remit and the Independent should have more than that if they are publishing that info, even as a maybe

km79

am_zarathustra wrote: »

I've two hours blocks.....the kids might end up staying a bit late one day as the work to be completed in silence for that way will actually take a little longer. The JMB are absolutely outside their remit and the Independent should have more than that if they are publishing that info, even as a maybe

What happens though if a large proportion choose not to do exams ?
We are getting them back into school buildings and then not teaching them for one/two weeks ?
Where do they go?

Treppen

History Queen wrote: »

Seems unfair to students sitting the exam to prohibit them for a practice go at a full length paper.

Conspiracy theory tells me it's a way of dissuading students from sitting the actual exam. Which is what the DES wanted from the get go.

History Queen

Treppen wrote: »

Conspiracy theory tells me it's a way of dissuading students from sitting the actual exam. Which is what the DES wanted from the get go.

Well a colleague of mine has said she'll stay after school two evenings for any student who would like to sit a mock exam in her subject (Maths) and no one will be stopping her. I definitely wouldn't try dissuade her! :pac: formidable lady!

Edit: seriously though, telling teachers not to run mock exams if they see fit is bat****. In my subjects (English and History) I run them for timing practice more than anything else! I don't put much heed in results as the papers are often leaked, but for timing and exam technique I do find them useful to students.

LW2018

History Queen wrote: »

Well a colleague of mine has said she'll stay after school two evenings for any student who would like to sit a mock exam in her subject (Maths) and no one will be stopping her. I definitely wouldn't try dissuade her! :pac: formidable lady!

Good on her! There's at least one of them in each school... and I do love them!

am_zarathustra

km79 wrote: »

What happens though if a large proportion choose not to do exams ?
We are getting them back into school buildings and then not teaching them for one/two weeks ?
Where do they go?

Why on earth would they not be sitting the exam like the rest of their class. I have tests regularly enough, the kids know I'll find another time to make them sit it if they don't at the normal time. If I need an exam to assess particular parts of the course to get an overall picture of where the students are at and how they would respond to choice and time pressure I'll be doing that, and I'll happily explain why to anyone who cares to ask, which will, I'd imagine, be no one.

I would always have given the guts of a paper to my classes the week before easter so I'd have time to really correct it and give decent feedback and to assess what I needed to cover.

km79

am_zarathustra wrote: »

Why on earth would they not be sitting the exam like the rest of their class. I have tests regularly enough, the kids know I'll find another time to make them sit it if they don't at the normal time. If I need an exam to assess particular parts of the course to get an overall picture of where the students are at and how they would respond to choice and time pressure I'll be doing that, and I'll happily explain why to anyone who cares to ask, which will, I'd imagine, be no one.

I would always have given the guts of a paper to my classes the week before easter so I'd have time to really correct it and give decent feedback and to assess what I needed to cover.

That’s different to blocking off a full week at least for two 3 hour exams a day at a time when students are just after returning to the classroom though ?
I can not see the value in that this year . That’s leaving aside all the logistics and that there are only two mock companies , mocks cost money etc etc
A full “mock “ can be given over a few class periods though. For my subject (biology ) I used to do a second mock myself in May like that

I do not think most schools can stand over running “Mocks” as they normally would operate
There is nothing to stop individual teachers running their own though over a couple of classes

carr62

Can someone please explain to me the situation with oral exams for languages ? If a student is opting to take a calculated grade, does that mean he needs to sit the oral, so the teacher can use it as material for the calculated grade, or can he choose to not sit the oral and still be given a grade? Thanks.

jimmytwotimes 2013

carr62 wrote: »

Can someone please explain to me the situation with oral exams for languages ? If a student is opting to take a calculated grade, does that mean he needs to sit the oral, so the teacher can use it as material for the calculated grade, or can he choose to not sit the oral and still be given a grade? Thanks.

As far as I know, if the student is goj g for accredited grade only they do not sit the oral

Have double checked this with a few people I'd trust from other schools.

carr62

Thanks for the reply jimmytwotimes. I thought that was the case too, until my son announced today that all his French class have to sit the oral exam, regardless if they are taking accredited grades or not. Perhaps it's a case of the teacher waiting on clarification, and that might change next week after they get back to school.

deiseindublin

I really hope it's not students own language teachers that will be doing the orals. Doesn't seem impartial when they are also the person giving the CG.

French Toast

deiseindublin wrote: »

I really hope it's not students own language teachers that will be doing the orals. Doesn't seem impartial when they are also the person giving the CG.

In a meeting recently our principal alluded to a point where schools will share/swap teachers locally to do the orals. Can't remember the precise wording, but that was the gist.

Wombatman

French Toast wrote: »

In a meeting recently our principal alluded to a point where schools will share/swap teachers locally to do the orals. Can't remember the precise wording, but that was the gist.

Letter says it should be a teacher from the school.

French Toast

Wombatman wrote: »

Letter says it should be a teacher from the school.

So, for example, Irish teachers would just swap classes with a colleague and assess each other's group?

deiseindublin

Well, I hope they do swap. I've heard a language teacher locally say they prefer to do their own.

History Queen

deiseindublin wrote: »

Well, I hope they do swap. I've heard a language teacher locally say they prefer to do their own.

In some situations there will be no one to swop with. We have only one German teacher in our school.

Newbie20

My understanding is the teacher won’t actually be assessing the student in the oral though. They are facilitating it as such by asking questions and recording it. Then the recordings will be sent to the SEC to be marked.

Rosita

deiseindublin wrote: »

Well, I hope they do swap. I've heard a language teacher locally say they prefer to do their own.

Obviously I get the argument for people swapping classes but firstly this assumes that all classes are doing the orals so there won't be an actual swap in many cases. And in any event if they are being sent off to the state exams commission to be marked anyway does it really matter who is pressing 'record'?

Treppen

Newbie20 wrote: »

My understanding is the teacher won’t actually be assessing the student in the oral though. They are facilitating it as such by asking questions and recording it. Then the recordings will be sent to the SEC to be marked.

That's my understanding too.
Watch this space for future orals!! Might save the SEC a bit of money.

am_zarathustra

Rosita wrote: »

Obviously I get the argument for people swapping classes but firstly this assumes that all classes are doing the orals so there won't be an actual swap in many cases. And in any event if they are being sent off to the state exams commission to be marked anyway does it really matter who is pressing 'record'?

My understanding is normally the examiner doesn't even know the level the student is taking so the conversation happens organically as much as possible, the best test of language ability. With you own students, consciously or unconsciously, you know their strengths and weaknesses so that will colour what you ask. They aren't reading from a script or a set of questions like the old JC optional oral.

Rosita

am_zarathustra wrote: »

My understanding is normally the examiner doesn't even know the level the student is taking so the conversation happens organically as much as possible, the best test of language ability.

It is meant to happen organically but the examiners knows within two sentences what the student's level is and that automatically colours the conversation and nature of the questions anyway. But that's just my experience as an examiner. Legislating for something is another matter.

deiseindublin

As a parent, I wouldn't even trust this teacher to ask the questions tbh. Won't say any more but have plenty reason.

Wombatman

Newbie20 wrote: »

My understanding is the teacher won’t actually be assessing the student in the oral though. They are facilitating it as such by asking questions and recording it. Then the recordings will be sent to the SEC to be marked.

Yes. But in the situation where the PG grading teacher is the facilitator, they will have difficulty preventing the oral from influencing the PG.