The way forward for LC2021

jimmytwotimes 2013

deiseindublin wrote: »

As a parent, I wouldn't even trust this teacher to ask the questions tbh. Won't say any more but have plenty reason.

They mute? Asking questions can't be that difficult

am_zarathustra

Rosita wrote: »

Obviously I get the argument for people swapping classes but firstly this assumes that all classes are doing the orals so there won't be an actual swap in many cases. And in any event if they are being sent off to the state exams commission to be marked anyway does it really matter who is pressing 'record'?

My understanding is normally the examiner doesn't even know the level the student is taking so the conversation happens organically as much as possible, the best test of language ability. With you own students, consciously or unconsciously, you know their strengths and weaknesses so that will colour what you ask. They aren't reading from a script or a set of questions like the old JC optional oral.

History Queen

Tui instructions to members just uploaded to TUI app

Dear Colleagues,
As recently as 24th February, a letter issued by the Department to school Principals failed to
provide clarity and instead created uncertainty that has led to some schools misinterpreting
the process.
The TUI’s advice, at this point, is to continue, insofar as possible, to complete the
curriculum, including projects and coursework.
Teachers must wait for the official guidelines to issue and must not, at this stage,
commence planning for any alternatives.
The TUI, in order to assist members, in relation to the weeks and months ahead is initially
providing the guidance attached – separate document – “Leaving Certificate 2021 Guidance
for TUI members - 25 Feb 2021”.
This guidance document:
• sets out the options available to students
• explains what results the students will receive and how they can appeal such results
• states that mock examinations must not take place
• details what is known to date on the SEC-Accredited Grades Process
• describes TUI’s position that all projects and coursework must be completed, insofar
as possible. It also clearly states that teachers do not have to facilitate Orals for
their own students. Facilitating Orals will be an entirely voluntary process and does
not form any part of your contract as a teacher
• sets out the timeline for completing the estimated percentage mark process and
• unambiguously explains that the TUI has secured a ‘no precedent’ agreement
The advice (attached) will be updated once more information becomes available.

Mrsmum

My son's class had an assembly this morning. Told mocks were going ahead beginning week 8th March including during the weekend ! Some students asked if they had to do them if they were opting for AG. The answer was every student must do them. A student said she understood they were not to be used for AG but how would they not colour teacher's decision. Told if you do well they will colour your teacher's decision on your grade positively.

History Queen

Mrsmum wrote: »

My son's class had an assembly this morning. Told mocks were going ahead beginning week 8th March including during the weekend ! Some students asked if they had to do them if they were opting for AG. The answer was every student must do them. A student said she understood they were not to be used for AG but how would they not colour teacher's decision. Told if you do well they will colour your teacher's decision on your grade positively.

That will most likely change when detailed guidance is issued.

Mrsmum

History Queen wrote: »

That will most likely change when detailed guidance is issued.

Ah I was just passing on what's happening in one school really. It's a bit confusing though reading the post saying guidance from TUI is mocks are not to go ahead when they are in some schools.

History Queen

Mrsmum wrote: »

Ah I was just passing on what's happening in one school really. It's a bit confusing though reading the post saying guidance from TUI is mocks are not to go ahead when they are in some schools.

The problem is official guidance and details (as usual)have not been issued in a timely fashion. Then schools are left to interpret guidance on an individual basid. Recipe for disaster.

Personally I think any student sitting the exam who wants a go at a mock should be given the opportunity. That being said I couldn't justify supporting 2 weeks of mocks when the reason the choice of exams or Accredited grades was offered was primarily due to complaints about loss of face to face classes.

There's now a few teachers in our school talking about offering students who wish to, the opportunity to sit mocks after school, on a purely voluntary basis. Waiting on guidance to see.

Mrsmum

History Queen wrote: »

The problem is official guidance and details (as usual)have not been issued in a timely fashion. Then schools are left to interpret guidance on an individual basid. Recipe for disaster.

Personally I think any student sitting the exam who wants a go at a mock should be given the opportunity. That being said I couldn't justify supporting 2 weeks of mocks when the reason the choice of exams or Accredited grades was offered was primarily due to complaints about loss of face to face classes.

There's now a few teachers in our school talking about offering students who wish to, the opportunity to sit mocks after school, on a purely voluntary basis. Waiting on guidance to see.

Yes I would say students who are taking AGs will not welcome doing the mocks but they are a benefit, even just time management, organisation, issues nothing to do with knowledge, for students who want to sit the exams.

Wombatman

History Queen wrote: »

That will most likely change when detailed guidance is issued.

Guidance from who, the TUI or The Department? Didn't think DES issued any advice to cancel mocks?

Bobtheman

Bottom line no teacher will be forced to work Easter.
If you give into school pressure that's your business.
Given the way a lot of young teachers don't bother attending union meetings and climb over their colleagues for the stipends of promotion- you will get some who will gladly do it.
Leave them off.
The department created this farce. Let them iron out the details. Stop thinking above your pay grades people.
There are people on 6 figure salaries to do that.

km79

Bobtheman wrote: »

Bottom line no teacher will be forced to work Easter.
If you give into school pressure that's your business.
Given the way a lot of young teachers don't bother attending union meetings and climb over their colleagues for the stipends of promotion- you will get some who will gladly do it.
Leave them off.
The department created this farce. Let them iron out the details. Stop thinking above your pay grades people.
There are people on 6 figure salaries to do that.

It will be paid voluntary SEC work as it always was

km79

km79 wrote: »

It will be paid voluntary SEC work as it always was

Confirmed here
https://www.tui.ie/_fileupload/Leaving%20Certificate%202021%20Guidance%20for%20members.pdf

Which also says mocks can not run due to H&S.......

jimmytwotimes 2013

km79 wrote: »

Confirmed here
https://www.tui.ie/_fileupload/Leaving%20Certificate%202021%20Guidance%20for%20members.pdf

Which also says mocks can not run due to H&S.......

Not took sure about the position that orals, practicals shud be completed by all.

Some students don't want to do orals as it'll interfere with the study they'd do if they were taking papers in other subjects but not a language.

I know they're not obliged to anyway.

History Queen

Wombatman wrote: »

Guidance from who, the TUI or The Department? Didn't think DES issued any advice to cancel mocks?

The unions and Department. We're duel union and to be fair, I think, sensible in taking the approach of no rash decisions until full details are checked.

Bobtheman

Has there been any information released on how we arrive at these am grades? For LC
I have to laugh at the don't use the mocks instruction.
How the hell will they know?
Not stopping any teacher just giving a student a grade by any combination of methods they individually design or just off ghr top of their heads..

r93kaey5p2izun

Official guide is out.

Random sample

Nyla Worried Son wrote: »

Official guide is out.

Where?

r93kaey5p2izun

Random sample wrote: »

Where?

I was sent it by TUI. I'm trying to see can I link it directly or find it on department website.

https://www.gov.ie/en/publication/81e76-a-guide-to-state-examinations-and-accredited-grades-for-leaving-certificate-2021/

PoolDude

https://www.gov.ie/en/publication/81e76-a-guide-to-state-examinations-and-accredited-grades-for-leaving-certificate-2021/

jimmytwotimes 2013

Bobtheman wrote: »

Has there been any information released on how we arrive at these am grades? For LC
I have to laugh at the don't use the mocks instruction.
How the hell will they know?
Not stopping any teacher just giving a student a grade by any combination of methods they individually design or just off ghr top of their heads..

Last year we were to use previous performance and "professional judgement" to allow for the students who leave it late to study etc

Don't expect stringent criteria this time around either

milosh

even more choice being given on papers. The greatest leaving cert results ever seen are on the way.

Hopontop

I see students can only be given max 3 class tests per subject (1 hour max each) between now and May 14th, how are they going to be prepared for the actual real exam!?

km79

Hopontop wrote: »

I see students can only be given max 3 class tests per subject (1 hour max each) between now and May 14th, how are they going to be prepared for the actual real exam!?

Most of them won’t do it is what the DES are hoping
Same with the mocks

Random sample

milosh wrote: »

even more choice being given on papers. The greatest leaving cert results ever seen are on the way.

Where do you see that?

Bobtheman

When they say alignment do they mean you should roughly keep your overall grades within the past school performance?

Mardy Bum

I am unsure what evidence teachers are supposed to use if tests of less than one class period and mocks are not allowed to be used. What students have sat any other type of assessment? One set of Christmas exams in fifth year?

Wombatman

Is this ranking again?

From doc. Bottom of page 11.

Individual performance: Teachers will demonstrate that no two students are placed on the same estimated percentage mark. Percentage marks may include up to two decimal places i.e. 83.22%, 83.33%, etc.

jimmytwotimes 2013

Can someone link please?

r93kaey5p2izun

Wombatman wrote: »

Is this ranking again?

From doc. Bottom of page 11.

I suppose it is and it isn't. Yes, you essentially are ranking them. But if they apply for data access, there is nothing telling them where they placed in the class, unlike last year.

Wombatman

Nyla Worried Son wrote: »

I suppose it is and it isn't. Yes, you essentially are ranking them. But if they apply for data access, there is nothing telling them where they placed in the class, unlike last year.

Bottom of page 22. I guess they will deduce where they were placed, from talking to friends, when they see their marks.

A short time following the issue of results, candidates will have access to more detailed information about both sets of results. They will be able to see the estimated marks submitted by their school and the SEC Accredited Grades following the standardisation process. For candidates who took the certificate examinations, they will be able to see the marks awarded in the written examination, and the marks awarded in any components.

For candidates who did not take the Leaving Certificate Examinations the estimated percentage marks submitted by the school and the SEC Accredited Grades only will be available.

This information will aid candidates who may opt to appeal a result in a subject.

r93kaey5p2izun

Wombatman wrote: »

Bottom of page 22. I guess they will deduce where they were placed, from talking to friends, when they see their marks.

Yeah, but sure there's no way to stop that. At least they aren't looking at "rank 25" in black and white, knowing there were only 25 in the class.

Treppen

Mrsmum wrote: »

My son's class had an assembly this morning. Told mocks were going ahead beginning week 8th March including during the weekend ! Some students asked if they had to do them if they were opting for AG. The answer was every student must do them. A student said she understood they were not to be used for AG but how would they not colour teacher's decision. Told if you do well they will colour your teacher's decision on your grade positively.

Christ that Principal hasn't a clue.
Department are today advising against mocks.

Treppen

Wombatman wrote: »

Is this ranking again?

From doc. Bottom of page 11.

Individual performance: Teachers will demonstrate that no two students are placed on the same estimated percentage mark. Percentage marks may include up to two decimal places i.e. 83.22%, 83.33%, etc.

No mocks,
possibly very few substantive tests
Might be a new sub
Students unable to log in for classes
Other half of that student's class possibly cheat on home weekly tests.

Good luck with determining between an 82.23% student and an 82.24% student :pac:

The moderation algorithm from last year seems more accurate than what this year's one is going to be!

LW2018

Of course they announce that there will be further changes to the exam papers... but the details of this will follow. Surely students and teachers could do with this information as soon as possible with regards to forward planning and structuring exam prep! Around March 22nd... a joke!

jimmytwotimes 2013

LW2018 wrote: »

Of course they announce that there will be further changes to the exam papers... but the details of this will follow. Surely students and teachers could do with this information as soon as possible with regards to forward planning and structuring exam prep! Around March 22nd... a joke!

Bad alright

History Queen

LW2018 wrote: »

Of course they announce that there will be further changes to the exam papers... but the details of this will follow. Surely students and teachers could do with this information as soon as possible with regards to forward planning and structuring exam prep! Around March 22nd... a joke!

And where is the widespread condemnation of the Department of Education? The Department is utterly dysfunctional. When will answers be demanded and a root and branch reform of the Department undertaken? The last 12 months have highlighted an ineptitude that those working in education have been aware of for years, will anything come of it? I doubt it.

Edit: sorry for the rant.... I spent too long on twitter this evening reading posts complaining about teachers and unions :pac:

PoolDude

14% of students to sit all papers, 33% to take all AG’s and just over 50% to take a mix of both according to an article in the Indo. Wonder will it change with the news there will be more choice on the papers - doubt it, it might just change the number of papers taken by those planning to take a mix. I’ve said before I see it as two chances to get a good grade v choice and think this change reenforces that

rainbowtrout

PoolDude wrote: »

14% of students to sit all papers, 33% to take all AG’s and just over 50% to take a mix of both according to an article in the Indo. Wonder will it change with the news there will be more choice on the papers - doubt it, it might just change the number of papers taken by those planning to take a mix. I’ve said before I see it as two chances to get a good grade v choice and think this change reenforces that

If those numbers hold true, and 33% take all calculated grades, then in some schools there will probably be a noticeable absence rate.

Wombatman

rainbowtrout wrote: »

If those numbers hold true, and 33% take all calculated grades, then in some schools there will probably be a noticeable absence rate.

Absence rate after the 14th of May?

amacca

Wombatman wrote: »

Absence rate after the 14th of May?

No before the 14th starting next Monday Id say

There will be ones that don't care much and only show up to one subject with the teacher they "like" and the ones that are simply choosing to do a small number of subjects leaving them with a day or two they dont have to come in and they think that is their optimum strategy to maximise points

There will be the ones that wouldn't turn over to scratch themselves so PG is the easy option

There will be the ones that either have chosen very low requirements in terms of points courses and don't need to do will find it hard to motivate themselves to do any work

There will be the ones that believe if they do exams then their exam grade will be the one dept uses and will secretly downgrade their PG if there is a large discrepancy between it and actual grade - people love a good conspiracy theory and given that you won't know PG before exam I think?? Then you can sort of understand that given way dept etc has behaved.

Then there will be the ones strategically absenting themselves from classes and tests especially believing their PG is in the healthiest state now and if they do tests etc it will drag it down.

There might be a small cohort that reckon on taking most exams to guarantee highest mark possible and wont come in much preferring instead to study at home rather than have the disruption of coming in for class

There will also be a cohort living with very high risk people who understandably will want to stay out

I'm sure there are lots of other reasons there could be a large drop in attendance for 6th yrs


I'd imagine high/close to normal attendance for all other years that come back later :pac:

rainbowtrout

amacca wrote: »

Then there will be the ones strategically absenting themselves from classes and tests especially believing their PG is in the healthiest state now and if they do tests etc it will drag it down.

All of the above, and there will be ones that know whether they sit any classes tests or not before the 14th May that the teacher will have to give them a predicted grade one way or another. They also know that the teacher is not going to fail the whole class, for once in their lives the "they can't fail us all" line probably rings true, and if they don't need it for points, then it's not a big deal to not to turn up to OL Irish etc, if they only need an O6 in it and have been performing above that all along.

km79

The department and SEC will be delighted with those percentages
Gets them out of a few holes

deiseindublin

PoolDude wrote: »

14% of students to sit all papers, 33% to take all AG’s and just over 50% to take a mix of both according to an article in the Indo. Wonder will it change with the news there will be more choice on the papers - doubt it, it might just change the number of papers taken by those planning to take a mix. I’ve said before I see it as two chances to get a good grade v choice and think this change reenforces that

You'd wonder how indicative those figures are. I'd see LCA AGs only being 95%+, which will bring up the regular LC averages.

Most students don't have a clue yet what they're doing, and won't decide for sure until after subject specific guidelines come out in a month's time.

I was talking to a parent of a local child yesterday who told me their #1 CAO choice is Arts, and they can get this by getting 6 x H6s. I can see why the likes of them wouldn't bother their backside to sit the papers. Just keep the head down for a few weeks and do a maximum of 18 class tests over 6 subjects. A nice position to be in.

French Toast

Received confirmation today that our mocks won't be happening. Not surprised with that.

There's about 12 weeks left until the end of May and it feels as though we're headed in to what will be one of the greatest shít-shows of all time.

rainbowtrout

French Toast wrote: »

Received confirmation today that our mocks won't be happening. Not surprised with that.

There's about 12 weeks left until the end of May and it feels as though we're headed in to what will be one of the greatest shít-shows of all time.

It’s entirely possible that since the start of January the Leaving Cert has generated more news articles than any other aspect of covid. It’s nuts when you think about it.

Wombatman

rainbowtrout wrote: »

It’s entirely possible that since the start of January the Leaving Cert has generated more news articles than any other aspect of covid. It’s nuts when you think about it.

Massive rite of passage. Has a special place in the Irish psyche for better or worse. Plenty of adults still have dreams\nightmares about doing theirs, years after the event.

noplacehere

Our mocks cancelled too. We are were told the predictive grades assessments are compulsory for students. Is that correct? I was suprised

r93kaey5p2izun

My cousin's mocks are cancelled too. He is raging! And apparently they won't be allowed to even hold any optional after school exams - that seems to be a decision from the ETB going by the wording of the principals message to them. He will need to sit the exams and is so annoyed.

Random sample

noplacehere wrote: »

Our mocks cancelled too. We are were told the predictive grades assessments are compulsory for students. Is that correct? I was suprised

Yes. In case they are sick for the actual exam. There will be no contingency exam this year.

noplacehere

Nyla Worried Son wrote: »

My cousin's mocks are cancelled too. He is raging! And apparently they won't be allowed to even hold any optional after school exams - that seems to be a decision from the ETB going by the wording of the principals message to them. He will need to sit the exams and is so annoyed.

Our ETB is saying they can be facilitated to take a mock at home and have it externally assessed but the school are not to be given that grade or paper