The way forward for LC2021

noplacehere

Random sample wrote: »

Yes. In case they are sick for the actual exam. There will be no contingency exam this year.

No I meant the three tests. We were told that there would be consequences for students who don’t sit them, they can be penalised grade wise?

I get that they all need a predictive grade regardless

jimmytwotimes 2013

noplacehere wrote: »

No I meant the three tests. We were told that there would be consequences for students who don’t sit them, they can be penalised grade wise?

I get that they all need a predictive grade regardless

Can't see how that could be imposed on what I've read. The guidance suggests students get no more than 3 tests per subject (still 18-21 tests). However, a teacher is free to give no tests if they wish. Not set in stone

coillsaille

The wording in the guidelines about the three assessments in no way indicates that they must be done, it just says any assessments should be capped at that.
Technically, going by the guidelines, a teacher could decide they're satisfied with the data they have already accumulated to base the estimated grades and don't require any further assessment.
(Not many in that boat of course.)

r93kaey5p2izun

coillsaille wrote: »

Technically, going by the guidelines, a teacher could decide they're satisfied with the data they have already accumulated to base the estimated grades and don't require any further assessment.

I agree that the guide suggests the assessments are a possibility but not required, given the use of "the teacher may..." I don't think it's right for any school or management body to impose this as a requirement on teachers.

But I don't think a teacher could consider they have enough data already, unless they are finished the course completely, which is unlikely. Since the guide states:

"Learning and outcomes from March until 14 May will also be taken in to account.",

I think any material covered from now on will have to be assessed in some form and considered when grading. The learning and outcomes WILL be taken into account - I don't see any option for not including data (of some form) from now to May unless no learning or outcomes take place.

Random sample

noplacehere wrote: »

No I meant the three tests. We were told that there would be consequences for students who don’t sit them, they can be penalised grade wise?

I get that they all need a predictive grade regardless

Oh I get you.

In fairness, if students don’t sit the three assessments from now to May, it would be difficult for them to demonstrate any level of ability in your subject.

noplacehere

Random sample wrote: »

Oh I get you.

In fairness, if students don’t sit the three assessments from now to May, it would be difficult for them to demonstrate any level of ability in your subject.

But if they already have summer and Christmas tests in and they are happy with what they think they’ll get based on that? Last time around we had to give grades for students who had never sat a single assessment. I wonder if that will be the case here. Because there’s no ‘algorithm’ we need to use to calculate these. I just doubt we can ‘insist’ that students take them. It feels like that’s just to try and keep them in school

coillsaille

Nyla Worried Son wrote: »

But I don't think a teacher could consider they have enough data already, unless they are finished the course completely, which is unlikely.

I would agree it's unlikely, highly unlikely in any other year. But the adjustments to the exam papers have resulted in less course material to cover in some subjects.

Random sample

noplacehere wrote: »

But if they already have summer and Christmas tests in and they are happy with what they think they’ll get based on that? Last time around we had to give grades for students who had never sat a single assessment. I wonder if that will be the case here. Because there’s no ‘algorithm’ we need to use to calculate these. I just doubt we can ‘insist’ that students take them. It feels like that’s just to try and keep them in school

I wouldn’t expect a student who does nothing from March to May of 6th year likely to get a good grade regardless of the result they got in Christmas of 5th year.

Wombatman

Random sample wrote: »

I wouldn’t expect a student who does nothing from March to May of 6th year likely to get a good grade regardless of the result they got in Christmas of 5th year.

I don't think attendance can be used as a parameter, so I guess you have to work with what you already had up until the no show?

jimmytwotimes 2013

Wombatman wrote: »

I don't think attendance can be used as a parameter, so I guess you have to work with what you already had up until the no show?

Anyone staying at home due to health concerns, or any reason at the moment couldn't be penalised.

The criteria is- in a regular year, how wud they have done.

Use existing data, professional opinion and/or up to 3 class tests.

Random sample

Wombatman wrote: »

I don't think attendance can be used as a parameter, so I guess you have to work with what you already had up until the no show?

Attendance and work aren’t the same thing. I have a student who has worked at home all year, but I have data on him because he has submitted work to me, and I presume will continue to do so. A student who is refusing to do class tests is a different story.

jimmytwotimes 2013

Random sample wrote: »

A student who is refusing to do class tests is a different story.

A student might not want to be screwing up their study for the actual LC to be doing class tests.

Random sample

jimmytwotimes 2013 wrote: »

A student might not want to be screwing up their study for the actual LC to be doing class tests.

Thankfully I’ve never come across one of them.

Bobtheman

Unless somebody goes through your paperwork and asks to see the actual essays with grades- teachers can do what they like. Those don't tie yourself up in knots. You didn't create the farce.

Treppen

Bobtheman wrote: »

Unless somebody goes through your paperwork and asks to see the actual essays with grades- teachers can do what they like. Those don't tie yourself up in knots. You didn't create the farce.

True that, the reliance is on "professional judgement", not an average or some sort of calculation of any grades you kept in your notes.

Mardy Bum

Treppen wrote: »

True that, the reliance is on "professional judgement", not an average or some sort of calculation of any grades you kept in your notes.

In other words, opinion. It makes the whole idea of objective teacher led assessment as utterly baseless and lacking reliability and validity but those outside of education and some inside it are totally oblivious to this. This is the equivalent of handing out driving licenses but it differs in that the more you hand out the more your reputation improves (20% of students got over 500 points).

Rosita

Bobtheman wrote: »

Unless somebody goes through your paperwork and asks to see the actual essays with grades- teachers can do what they like. Those don't tie yourself up in knots. You didn't create the farce.

Lot to be said for this. I have a guy in my class who shows up maybe once a week but did a decent exam in November which was a significant length. I would say he would pass the LC exam (a language) handily enough if he never came back because of his basics are decently good. There are others there every day who wouldn't do as well.

I can give all the exams I like and it won't change how I think they will do in the exam. It's hard to have evidence for a guy who's not there to do the exam but it doesn't change the fact that in my professional judgement he would pass.

Now if someone wants to go through my paperwork they will have to explain to me how I arrive at an "Accredited Grade" to which the student is entitled.

Most teachers in experience from talking to them would have a very good idea how a student will do. They should now back themselves in that regard and not be overly concerned with compiling a dossier on every student to defend a judgment that they are uniquely place to make.

carr62

By any chance might there be a home economics teacher on here? My son has been without a teacher for 6 months or so ( awful, I know, but we just have to make the best of it now for the last few weeks). He's very poor in this subject, hasn't a clue who will grade him so figures he had better try to attempt the exam. I'm sitting with him now and we are trying to figure out how the marking scheme works, is how much information he should be giving for each answer. Is there a format to it? I mean, from the little info there is on the exam papers booklet, we see some questions are worth 20 marks ( write 5 points @ 4 marks each) others are for example worth 12 marks , ( it says write 4 points @ 3 marks each) - . But say, for this, how does he know that this 12 mark question is looking for 4 points at 3 marks each, and not 6 points at 2 points each, or indeed 12 points at 1 point each! The real exam paper won't have that info on it, so how does he know how many points to give? I don't want him wasting time trying to think of 12 points to give for a 12 mark answer, when the examiner only wants him to write 2 points at 6 marks each....or perhaps 4 points at 3 marks each!!!! I think I'm confusing myself now! But if anyone might have a clue I'd be so very grateful. Many thanks.

coillsaille

carr62 wrote: »

By any chance might there be a home economics teacher on here? My son has been without a teacher for 6 months or so ( awful, I know, but we just have to make the best of it now for the last few weeks). He's very poor in this subject, hasn't a clue who will grade him so figures he had better try to attempt the exam. I'm sitting with him now and we are trying to figure out how the marking scheme works, is how much information he should be giving for each answer. Is there a format to it? I mean, from the little info there is on the exam papers booklet, we see some questions are worth 20 marks ( write 5 points @ 4 marks each) others are for example worth 12 marks , ( it says write 4 points @ 3 marks each) - . But say, for this, how does he know that this 12 mark question is looking for 4 points at 3 marks each, and not 6 points at 2 points each, or indeed 12 points at 1 point each! The real exam paper won't have that info on it, so how does he know how many points to give? I don't want him wasting time trying to think of 12 points to give for a 12 mark answer, when the examiner only wants him to write 2 points at 6 marks each....or perhaps 4 points at 3 marks each!!!! I think I'm confusing myself now! But if anyone might have a clue I'd be so very grateful. Many thanks.

Marking schemes for all past LC exams can be found at examinations.ie under the section titled examation material archive.

Random sample

carr62 wrote: »

By any chance might there be a home economics teacher on here? My son has been without a teacher for 6 months or so ( awful, I know, but we just have to make the best of it now for the last few weeks). He's very poor in this subject, hasn't a clue who will grade him so figures he had better try to attempt the exam. I'm sitting with him now and we are trying to figure out how the marking scheme works, is how much information he should be giving for each answer. Is there a format to it? I mean, from the little info there is on the exam papers booklet, we see some questions are worth 20 marks ( write 5 points @ 4 marks each) others are for example worth 12 marks , ( it says write 4 points @ 3 marks each) - . But say, for this, how does he know that this 12 mark question is looking for 4 points at 3 marks each, and not 6 points at 2 points each, or indeed 12 points at 1 point each! The real exam paper won't have that info on it, so how does he know how many points to give? I don't want him wasting time trying to think of 12 points to give for a 12 mark answer, when the examiner only wants him to write 2 points at 6 marks each....or perhaps 4 points at 3 marks each!!!! I think I'm confusing myself now! But if anyone might have a clue I'd be so very grateful. Many thanks.

That’s just something that you work out from practice at the different questions. You’d become familiar with the types of questions that look for more/less information.

They may also use these types of questions to tweak a marking scheme too to get the curve right, which you wouldn’t necessarily get from the published marking schemes.

Generally, write as much as possible in the time available for each question. That’s something he should have worked out beforehand, how many minutes will he have with a question based on the marks available.

Did he get the journal filled in on time?

carr62

Thanks Random sample. He has some serious work ahead I think! Yes, thankfully he has the journal done and sent off, so I believe that can count for up to 20% if I'm right? Think it's going to be a case of try to figure out the topics that come up most frequently, cram on them, write as much as he can on each question then hope for the best! At least there's the accredited grade as backup. Hes hoping to pick up some points to add to his overall total. Is certainly no chef, thought this subject would be handy points - how wrong he was!

History Queen

This letter by a Principal in Dublin is well worth a read.
https://www.irishtimes.com/opinion/letters/schools-undermined-by-mixed-messages-1.4496220?mode=amp

Treppen

History Queen wrote: »

This letter by a Principal in Dublin is well worth a read.
https://www.irishtimes.com/opinion/letters/schools-undermined-by-mixed-messages-1.4496220?mode=amp

Fair play, well put.

What makes it worse is that the department followed along on the coat tails of the JMB....

We're the JMB at the talks?

Str8outtaWuhan

History Queen wrote: »

This letter by a Principal in Dublin is well worth a read.
https://www.irishtimes.com/opinion/letters/schools-undermined-by-mixed-messages-1.4496220?mode=amp

Mocks held remotely are pointless. Excluding the cheating element surely the whole point of mocks is to replicate exam conditions, to be in the rooms you will sit the LC, under the same strict rules etc.

That principal , while well intentioned, has wasted her students time , time they could use to study for exams or get more contact with teachers.

History Queen

Treppen wrote: »

Fair play, well put.

What makes it worse is that the department followed along on the coat tails of the JMB....

We're the JMB at the talks?

Ya I thought so too. You make a good point about the Dept and the JMB, though were the JMB just preemptively advising their members as they knew what the Dept were going to say?

I've said it before and I'll say it again, the lack of calls for accountability and outright condemnation of the Department of Education speaks volumes. People don't care about Education in this country beyond what affects their own household.

History Queen

Str8outtaWuhan wrote: »

Mocks held remotely are pointless. Excluding the cheating element surely the whole point of mocks is to replicate exam conditions, to be in the rooms you will sit the LC, under the same strict rules etc.

That principal , while well intentioned, has wasted her students time , time they could use to study for exams or get more contact with teachers.

I disagree with you. For some students they just want a chance to sit a full paper and check technique/timings etc. For those students cheating wouldn't be an issue. Depends on the cohort, she said they consulted the students and acted based on students desire to sit mocks. It's the formative vs summative assessment argument. Which is why I also think the 3 tests per teacher argument is also a crock of absolute ****e.

tina1040

carr62 wrote: »

By any chance might there be a home economics teacher on here? My son has been without a teacher for 6 months or so ( awful, I know, but we just have to make the best of it now for the last few weeks). He's very poor in this subject, hasn't a clue who will grade him so figures he had better try to attempt the exam. I'm sitting with him now and we are trying to figure out how the marking scheme works, is how much information he should be giving for each answer. Is there a format to it? I mean, from the little info there is on the exam papers booklet, we see some questions are worth 20 marks ( write 5 points @ 4 marks each) others are for example worth 12 marks , ( it says write 4 points @ 3 marks each) - . But say, for this, how does he know that this 12 mark question is looking for 4 points at 3 marks each, and not 6 points at 2 points each, or indeed 12 points at 1 point each! The real exam paper won't have that info on it, so how does he know how many points to give? I don't want him wasting time trying to think of 12 points to give for a 12 mark answer, when the examiner only wants him to write 2 points at 6 marks each....or perhaps 4 points at 3 marks each!!!! I think I'm confusing myself now! But if anyone might have a clue I'd be so very grateful. Many thanks.

Drivetime Study Hub on 25th Feb talks about the Home Ec paper
https://www.rte.ie/radio1/drivetime-study-hub/
It should help.

Str8outtaWuhan

History Queen wrote: »

I disagree with you. For some students they just want a chance to sit a full paper and check technique/timings etc. For those students cheating wouldn't be an issue. Depends on the cohort, she said they consulted the students and acted based on students desire to sit mocks. It's the formative vs summative assessment argument. Which is why I also think the 3 tests per teacher argument is also a crock of absolute ****e.

A full paper of what? the papers format will be changed on 22nd so what they are doing for mock is not a "full paper"

Technique/timing require pressure and environment, neither of which a student will get in the cosy comfort of their bedroom with mammy bringing them tea and biscuits half way through their Trig question

I appreciate as a teacher you have a certain amount of insight but to me that principal is just pandering to students. Either they man up and sit the mocks in full under normal conditions or they don't. imho

am_zarathustra

Rosita wrote: »

Lot to be said for this. I have a guy in my class who shows up maybe once a week but did a decent exam in November which was a significant length. I would say he would pass the LC exam (a language) handily enough if he never came back because of his basics are decently good. There are others there every day who wouldn't do as well.

I can give all the exams I like and it won't change how I think they will do in the exam. It's hard to have evidence for a guy who's not there to do the exam but it doesn't change the fact that in my professional judgement he would pass.

Now if someone wants to go through my paperwork they will have to explain to me how I arrive at an "Accredited Grade" to which the student is entitled.

Most teachers in experience from talking to them would have a very good idea how a student will do. They should now back themselves in that regard and not be overly concerned with compiling a dossier on every student to defend a judgment that they are uniquely place to make.

Was having a quick look through the numbers (grades and assessments) I'd have for kids, bar a couoem, they'd be very consistent. Most students I could pin to a 10% margin, a couple would be in within a 20% margin and I'll need to monitor work from them closely when I go back.

That's the most I'll be able to do though, estimate a margin and use the next 9 weeks to try and narrow it down, it's certainly not ideal and unlike last year I will probably end up giving every student the top or the margin I'm left with. The lack of a decent length exam or a mock will make the anything else impossible

History Queen

Str8outtaWuhan wrote: »

A full paper of what? the papers format will be changed on 22nd so what they are doing for mock is not a "full paper"

Technique/timing require pressure and environment, neither of which a student will get in the cosy comfort of their bedroom with mammy bringing them tea and biscuits half way through their Trig question

I appreciate as a teacher you have a certain amount of insight but to me that principal is just pandering to students. Either they man up and sit the mocks in full under normal conditions or they don't. imho

The decision to change papers again was only announced since the school made this call. Thisactually reinforces the principal's argument about poor communication. The principal is looking out for students as is their remit, not pandering to them. They are now prohibited from sitting mocks.

PoolDude

am_zarathustra wrote: »

Was having a quick look through the numbers (grades and assessments) I'd have for kids, bar a couoem, they'd be very consistent. Most students I could pin to a 10% margin, a couple would be in within a 20% margin and I'll need to monitor work from them closely when I go back.

That's the most I'll be able to do though, estimate a margin and use the next 9 weeks to try and narrow it down, it's certainly not ideal and unlike last year I will probably end up giving every student the top or the margin I'm left with. The lack of a decent length exam or a mock will make the anything else impossible

In reality you’ll need a much tighter margin so the class is stack ranked. I know your not officially doing that but providing results to two decimals with no two the same means 20% range won’t help when you need to get it to that level unfortunately

am_zarathustra

PoolDude wrote: »

In reality you’ll need a much tighter margin so the class is stack ranked. I know your not officially doing that but providing results to two decimals with no two the same means 20% range won’t help when you need to get it to that level unfortunately

I know the process from last year, the margins are where I have them now not where I will have them on the 15th of may. The fact I have them in front of me and am lacking in data means this is the best approach I could think of. I'll be testing, in the limited way I'm allowed, a very specific set of outcomes that I haven't a full picture on and hopefully this will help narrow the number down. But no teacher can honestly say, with all the disruptions, that's they can narrow a gradeband to 87.56. I'll narrow as tight as I can with the info I have and what I am being allowed to obtain and then I guess if I get it to 83-87 I'll award 87. The decimals only come into it if you have two students on the same grade. If I do I'll cross that bridge but otherwise they can have 87.00!

Bobtheman

I took out my crystal ball and this is what I see
Media and government admit school openings were premature. It will increase the virus rapidly
Vast majority of teachers will ridiculously inflate grades because A) They will let the SEC do the dirty work of lowering them
They don't want to get it wrong for kids
C) no external validation if the student choses not to do LC in June

Bobtheman

Does the new system allow you to give two students the exact same mark?

Comer1

Bobtheman wrote: »

I took out my crystal ball and this is what I see
Media and government admit school openings were premature. It will increase the virus rapidly
Vast majority of teachers will ridiculously inflate grades because A) They will let the SEC do the dirty work of lowering them
They don't want to get it wrong for kids
C) no external validation if the student choses not to do LC in June

D) Leaving cert cancelled in June due to increased numbers, all students accept AGs only

Comer1

Bobtheman wrote: »

Does the new system allow you to give two students the exact same mark?

No

skippy1977

Bobtheman wrote: »

Does the new system allow you to give two students the exact same mark?

No. You give a mark correct to 2 decimal places with no two students on the same mark. So one can be 73.24 and the other 73.25....but you are not 'ranking them' :rolleyes:

Bobtheman

skippy1977 wrote: »

No. You give a mark correct to 2 decimal places with no two students on the same mark. So one can be 73.24 and the other 73.25....but you are not 'ranking them' :rolleyes:

Jaysus I picked the wrong week to give up amphetamines

jimmytwotimes 2013

Some job to know your students down to 2 decimal places lol

am_zarathustra

jimmytwotimes 2013 wrote: »

Some job to know your students down to 2 decimal places lol

The exam doesn't give that kind of detail and you can't use any mathematical algorithm.........I have to say, I rarely think in two decimal places about anything and I teach maths

Wombatman

jimmytwotimes 2013 wrote: »

Some job to know your students down to 2 decimal places lol

The amount of sucking up there will be from 6th years tomorrow, will probably worth around 0.0146754 to them. Should that be rounded up?

Treppen

Wombatman wrote: »

The amount of sucking up there will be from 6th years tomorrow, will probably worth around 0.0146754 to them. Should that be rounded up?

to the nearest whole number :pac:

Treppen

Is this what you're looking for?

A Guide to
State Examinations and
Accredited Grades for
Leaving Certificate 2021

Rosita

Bobtheman wrote: »

Jaysus I picked the wrong week to give up amphetamines

To be fair, in the current environment, there's probably never a good week for that!

Choochtown

So on 22nd March, we all find out the adjustments to the Leaving Cert papers.

This means that the work done with LC students over the next 3 weeks could be pointless.

eg. A Physics teacher may decide to revise or teach "Option 2" to their students only to find out on 22nd March that "Option 2" has been removed from the paper.

The Department are making this up as they go along.

rainbowtrout

Choochtown wrote: »

So on 22nd March, we all find out the adjustments to the Leaving Cert papers.

This means that the work done with LC students over the next 3 weeks could be pointless.

eg. A Physics teacher may decide to revise or teach "Option 2" to their students only to find out on 22nd March that "Option 2" has been removed from the paper.

The Department are making this up as they go along.

But they didn't say they were removing topics from the paper. They said they were giving more choice, i.e. if you were asked to answer 8/10 questions on a paper, now you might only be asked to answer seven.

In addition to the adjustment to the examinations previously communicated to schools,
further adjustments will be made to the written papers. These further adjustments will
aim to reduce the load on students, leaving intact the general overall structure of the
written examination papers. In the majority of cases these adjustments will involve
reducing the number of questions that students will be required to answer. The
duration of the examinations will remain the same as set out in the published timetable,
thus providing students with additional time to read the paper and answer the required
number of questions.
Further subject-by-subject guidance in relation to these adjustments will be issued by
the SEC in the week of 22 March.

PoolDude

I see the high court challenge to last years calculated grades has been dismissed

Treppen

PoolDude wrote: »

I see the high court challenge to last years calculated grades has been dismissed

Seems a bit odd, going by media accounts, the judge claimed his grades were overinflated!

To go from 540 to 480 would have ruled him out of a fair few courses though.

I think the only way the judge could rectify the mistake was to reinstate school data and run the algorithm again..... For everyone!

Although the student had a kind of right to appeal in a way by sitting the exam after the Summer!

Redpill

I thought it was quite strange that the judge mentioned that Belvedere's grades were inflated from previous years and that they were right to be downgraded
but also ruled that historical data should have no impact on results...seems like a contradiction to me?

Wombatman

rainbowtrout wrote: »

But they didn't say they were removing topics from the paper. They said they were giving more choice, i.e. if you were asked to answer 8/10 questions on a paper, now you might only be asked to answer seven.

The whole point being you can eliminate some material. For example in English you could leave out another poet or in physics maybe leave out electricity. Right now, without the information, you may be covering something in class or revising something that you won't need. Wasting time and effort essentially, from a points accumulation perspective.