The way forward for LC2021

solerina

TheValeyard wrote: »

I'd cancel all exams for first and second years this summer. Concentrate on teaching.

I have been teaching online since Christmas, they don’t need to catch up on anything but I do need to know how well they learned the material I covered so that’s a no from me !! I want summer exams for all my classes.

TheValeyard

solerina wrote: »

I have been teaching online since Christmas, they don’t need to catch up on anything but I do need to know how well they learned the material I covered so that’s a no from me !! I want summer exams for all my classes.

I dont. I'd prefer in house teaching. Online teaching is a reasonable back up, but is nothing compared to actual in house lessons.

Alex86Eire

I am also hoping for summer tests. We've been live streaming since Christmas so I don't see much of an issue.

The last week of school is going to be a write off anyway. It'll be a week of kahoots/wordwalls/quizzes etc. I don't see any added benefit of teaching this week rather than having a week of exams.

km79

Not a word about the maskless Orals from the unions or the media today. I guess that’s that so !

deiseindublin

Ann Pigott ASTI was on Claire Byrne this morning, maybe 15 mins in.

Wombatman

Details on further adjustments to LC exam papers due this week. Any word yet?

Choochtown

Wombatman wrote: »

Details on further adjustments to LC exam papers due this week. Any word yet?

Due Friday evening judging on past performances

Rosita

TheValeyard wrote: »

I dont. I'd prefer in house teaching. Online teaching is a reasonable back up, but is nothing compared to actual in house lessons.

To be fair, I don't think that poster was arguing for on-line teaching as an equivalent to in-school teaching, rather that exams are necessary.

Aquals

For the first time, I heard a bit of kite flying on the radio this morning about 1st - 4th years potentially not going back immediately after the Easter holidays if case numbers continue to rise!

Purefrank128

The document outlining further adjustments for the 2021 Leaving Cert exams is now on the SEC website.

am_zarathustra

Purefrank128 wrote: »

The document outlining further adjustments for the 2021 Leaving Cert exams is now on the SEC website.

Thanks for that......ah it's very easy or is it just me?

Wombatman

am_zarathustra wrote: »

Thanks for that......ah it's very easy or is it just me?

Don't worry about it. The curve will sort them out.

rainbowtrout

am_zarathustra wrote: »

Thanks for that......ah it's very easy or is it just me?

Ya, there's 12 questions on the physics paper (14 this year) to do 6. It normally has a high rate of H1-H3 anyway. It will be very competitive. To do well they will have to know their stuff.

History Queen

rainbowtrout wrote: »

Ya, there's 12 questions on the physics paper (14 this year) to do 6. It normally has a high rate of H1-H3 anyway. It will be very competitive. To do well they will have to know their stuff.

I have similar concerns about English. In paper two they can now omit either poetry, the comparative or the single text( Shakespeare). It'll be very competitive.

am_zarathustra

I wonder though have the papers been made? They will need to include a nice amount of quite tricky questions in my subject anyway. I'm reconsidering correcting this year, I can see a lot of revised marking schemes knocking around.

rainbowtrout

am_zarathustra wrote: »

I wonder though have the papers been made? They will need to include a nice amount of quite tricky questions in my subject anyway. I'm reconsidering correcting this year, I can see a lot of revised marking schemes knocking around.

I'd presume so. They haven't changed any of the structure here just gave more choice. So aside from maybe including an instruction sheet with the exam or modifying the cover page to reflect the new choices, the exams themselves shouldn't have to be changed.

jimmytwotimes 2013

You do accredited grades based on those papers and we're in for another record year

Mardy Bum

jimmytwotimes 2013 wrote: »

You do accredited grades based on those papers and we're in for another record year

Students and teachers need to be reminded that exam results are based on a bell curve.

jimmytwotimes 2013

Mardy Bum wrote: »

Students and teachers need to be reminded that exam results are based on a bell curve.

Bell broke last year

am_zarathustra

rainbowtrout wrote: »

I'd presume so. They haven't changed any of the structure here just gave more choice. So aside from maybe including an instruction sheet with the exam or modifying the cover page to reflect the new choices, the exams themselves shouldn't have to be changed.

That's what it looks like to me too. I'd just be concerned about how accredited grades and exam grades are treated, two separate bell curves? One for each with a quota? Hard to not see inflation with both and exams this easy. You can only tighten a marking scheme so much in some subjects.

Mardy Bum

am_zarathustra wrote: »

That's what it looks like to me too. I'd just be concerned about how accredited grades and exam grades are treated, two separate bell curves? One for each with a quota? Hard to not see inflation with both and exams this easy. You can only tighten a marking scheme so much in some subjects.

Results should match last year's because there will be a lot of students who will be using their points this year.

rainbowtrout

am_zarathustra wrote: »

That's what it looks like to me too. I'd just be concerned about how accredited grades and exam grades are treated, two separate bell curves? One for each with a quota? Hard to not see inflation with both and exams this easy. You can only tighten a marking scheme so much in some subjects.

Yes a lot of the science subjects, answers are right or wrong, not much middle ground in physics. I'm actually amazed at the level of choice they are getting.

am_zarathustra

Mardy Bum wrote: »

Results should match last year's because there will be a lot of students who will be using their points this year.

How? I teach a right or wrong answer type of exam, I'd frequently have kids get 25/25 or 60/60 in an area they like and have studied hard for, as Rainbowtrout said this will be particularly prevelent in sciences. You can change the weighting sure but a large number of kids, with the extra time ect will just get full marks on a lot of questions so weighting won't helo. You can't mark a right question wrong to suit a curve. Much easier to downgrade and accredited grade. I'm correcting this year, I look forward to multiple changes to the marking scheme.

deiseindublin

Also, how do you gel an exam bell curve with predicted grades when it's pick and mix between them?

am_zarathustra

deiseindublin wrote: »

Also, how do you gel an exam bell curve with predicted grades when it's pick and mix between them?

Actually excellent point, I'd only been of two datasets, I forgot they overlap and also sometimes don't. I'd love some form of explaination as to how it's going to be done.

Newbie20

am_zarathustra wrote: »

Actually excellent point, I'd only been of two datasets, I forgot they overlap and also sometimes don't. I'd love some form of explaination as to how it's going to be done.

I think unfortunately we know at this stage the answer to that question - That they don’t know yet themselves!

Treppen

deiseindublin wrote: »

Also, how do you gel an exam bell curve with predicted grades when it's pick and mix between them?

This is what I was warning against 2 weeks ago.
There has to be a record level of grade inflation this year. They might try and work the two off each other before coming to a grade for either!


I mentioned they could possibly have sight on the 2 grades and adjust both/either accordingly to suit 1 overall bell curve. For a finish I rang the Union, after much explaining myself as to how the SEC could -in theory- make your lower grade become the higher, they got back to me and assured me that exam grade will not be used to moderate the accredited grade. So I'll take the Department at their word...

Biology will now only be marked out of 290 marks instead of usual 400. I know some on here will defend the integrity of SEC to the death, but after the Hullabaloo a couple of years ago (nearly 100% increase in H1s , examiners told to mark answers 'very differently' after the first samples revealed a major skew, heated words ensued... allegedly). Some subjects it will be impossible to fit to a bell.
Others -as usual- like Music, English, Art, possibly language orals will get the usual treatment.

But hey! Maybe just let the cards fall where they fall and let CAO oversubscription lottery take care of it.

Maybe it would have been easier to cancel the leaving cert and just work the auld 'bell curve magic' on predicted grades only.

gaiscioch

Leaving Cert: Fewer questions and more choice under new changes to exams

An absolute joke. In history, for instance, they only have to answer two essays (100 marks each) and one document (100 marks) in the same amount of time, 2hr 50 min. Rather than 3 essays (100 marks each) and one document (100 marks).

How are the kids who have been working since week one in 5th year now going to be able to show that knowledge and preparation, to stand out? My experience of the 'Bell Curve' in SEC marking amounted to messages such as "accept [such a thing] as an answer". And there wasn't much of that. If other people have a different

The answer, for me, seems straightforward enough: the kids who prepared 4-5-page essays x 3 will now have to prepare 6-7-page essays x 2 to stand out. In other words, all those essays they've fine-tuned to have done in 40 minutes since week one in fifth year will have to be revised with 50% more added to them to complete in 60 minutes. Good students end up having more work to do because of this. "Fairness", my eye.

The alternative is that the grade inflation here reaches Weimar Republic in November 1923 levels and H1s are given out like German marks. Are we expected to risk that, or push our students to up their workrate again?

Treppen

It's a bit of a dunt for students who opted for accredited grades only !
They'll be allocated a grade based on how they would perform in a normal year... whereas their peers who are sitting the exam will be undertaking a simplified version!

rainbowtrout

Treppen wrote: »

It's a bit of a dunt for students who opted for accredited grades only !
They'll be allocated a grade based on how they would perform in a normal year... whereas their peers who are sitting the exam will be undertaking a simplified version!

That's incorrect.

From the guide to accredited grades:

SEC Accredited Grades awarded to students in each subject based on schools’
estimates of students’ likely performance in the 2021 examination and a
national standardisation process.

deiseindublin

Treppen wrote: »

It's a bit of a dunt for students who opted for accredited grades only !
They'll be allocated a grade based on how they would perform in a normal year... whereas their peers who are sitting the exam will be undertaking a simplified version!

Surely teacher grades will be based on this new shortened or more choice paper?

Choochtown

Treppen wrote: »

This is what I was warning against 2 weeks ago.
There has to be a record level of grade inflation this year. They might try and work the two off each other before coming to a grade for either!


I mentioned they could possibly have sight on the 2 grades and adjust both/either accordingly to suit 1 overall bell curve. For a finish I rang the Union, after much explaining myself as to how the SEC could -in theory- make your lower grade become the higher, they got back to me and assured me that exam grade will not be used to moderate the accredited grade. So I'll take the Department at their word...

Biology will now only be marked out of 290 marks instead of usual 400. I know some on here will defend the integrity of SEC to the death, but after the Hullabaloo a couple of years ago (nearly 100% increase in H1s , examiners told to mark answers 'very differently' after the first samples revealed a major skew, heated words ensued... allegedly). Some subjects it will be impossible to fit to a bell.
Others -as usual- like Music, English, Art, possibly language orals will get the usual treatment.

But hey! Maybe just let the cards fall where they fall and let CAO oversubscription lottery take care of it.

Maybe it would have been easier to cancel the leaving cert and just work the auld 'bell curve magic' on predicted grades only.

I don't believe for a minute that achieved grades will not be used to moderate accredited grades. A student who achieves a H6 but has been calculated at a H2 by their teacher will be marked down from that H2.

We were told by the Unions last year that our league table of our students would be kept confidential for our own protection and we all know how that panned out.

I'm anonymous here so I'll be honest. I developed my own algorithm last year. I compared my class results with end of unit tests with previous years class results with the same standard end of unit test with previous years LC results (yes it took time but there was no emotion involved) and scientifically calculated what each student would get based on that.
I didn't consider ability/ temperament/ attendance or anything else. I can't predict how someone will do on a particular day and it would be ridiculous for anyone to claim that they can. I didn't inflate a single grade.
Every single predicted grade that I gave remained unaltered.


I had to grade my finest student at 22nd out of 24. She worked so hard but just struggled with the subject. She always gave 100%, always handed in assignments on time etc. but I had to give an honest grade.

How did she feel upon seeing that I had thought she was 22nd best out of 24?
How did I feel upon knowing that she thought that I had thought so little of her?

This year we are told not to use a mathematical approach.
Just use "judgement"
Utter bull****!

rainbowtrout

Choochtown wrote: »

I had to grade my finest student at 22nd out of 24. She worked so hard but just struggled with the subject. She always gave 100%, always handed in assignments on time etc. but I had to give an honest grade.

How did she feel upon seeing that I had thought she was 22nd best out of 24?
How did I feel upon knowing that she thought that I had thought so little of her?

But it doesn't matter if she was the hardest worker in the class if she didn't have the natural ability in the subject. I'd presume she wasn't scoring the highest grade in the class if she ended up ranked at 22 out of 24. Students know where they are in the class. A student getting 49 is not going to expect to be ranked No. 1 no matter how hard they work if there are students getting 50s, 60s, 70s, 80s etc. They are aware that some students don't do a lot of work but have the ability to pull out a high grade without effort.

Polka_Dot

am_zarathustra wrote: »

How? I teach a right or wrong answer type of exam, I'd frequently have kids get 25/25 or 60/60 in an area they like and have studied hard for, as Rainbowtrout said this will be particularly prevelent in sciences. You can change the weighting sure but a large number of kids, with the extra time ect will just get full marks on a lot of questions so weighting won't helo. You can't mark a right question wrong to suit a curve. Much easier to downgrade and accredited grade. I'm correcting this year, I look forward to multiple changes to the marking scheme.

I can imagine a lot of students doing extra questions too so that they can be marked out of their best ones. Particularly in the likes of biology, there's now plenty of time to do relatively few questions, so no harm doing an extra experiment/long question.

Choochtown

rainbowtrout wrote: »

But it doesn't matter if she was the hardest worker in the class if she didn't have the natural ability in the subject. I'd presume she wasn't scoring the highest grade in the class if she ended up ranked at 22 out of 24. Students know where they are in the class. A student getting 49 is not going to expect to be ranked No. 1 no matter how hard they work if there are students getting 50s, 60s, 70s, 80s etc. They are aware that some students don't do a lot of work but have the ability to pull out a high grade without effort.

Agree with you RT. (except for the bit about students knowing where they are in the class see point 2 below)

I was trying to make 2 points there.

1. There was no purpose served whatsoever by the Department going back on their word regarding giving students access to their grading within a class. That student didn't need to be told that her best efforts were only 22nd out of 24. All she needed access to was my predicted grade which I would still absolutely stand over.

2. This year's guidance asks us to take into account "Performance on any class assessments, for example, tasks, questions" and
"performance over the course of study including for example, assignments, projects and practical work"
In my subject students (like that student) can do great work with tasks, practical work, "questions" (whatever that means) but it means very little when it comes to their performance in an exam. (My subject is 100% graded on a final exam).

Treppen

rainbowtrout wrote: »

That's incorrect.

From the guide to accredited grades:

Quote:
SEC Accredited Grades awarded to students in each subject based on schools’
estimates of students’ likely performance in the 2021 examination and a
national standardisation process.

Thanks for correcting.

Given the recent simplification then predicted grades have to rise in tandem.

French Toast

Choice between poetry and prose in Irish is massive. Focus on one after Easter and your workload is down about 20%. I suppose it's representative of the in-school teaching time they've missed.

Handiest LC they could've asked for.

am_zarathustra

Polka_Dot wrote: »

I can imagine a lot of students doing extra questions too so that they can be marked out of their best ones. Particularly in the likes of biology, there's now plenty of time to do relatively few questions, so no harm doing an extra experiment/long question.

Avoid the heavy hitters too, if I want to bring a curve down hit Ecology etc, no point hitting Genetics. I'd be suggesting particular topics to them too. Weighted marking will be uneven, it always is. 4/5 in one question could be worth less than 2/5 in another. Do them all of you have time. Different sections are hit unevenly too. Kids with teachers who correct will be at an advantage here I think

solerina

am_zarathustra wrote: »

Avoid the heavy hitters too, if I want to bring a curve down hit Ecology etc, no point hitting Genetics. I'd be suggesting particular topics to them too. Weighted marking will be uneven, it always is. 4/5 in one question could be worth less than 2/5 in another. Do them all of you have time. Different sections are hit unevenly too. Kids with teachers who correct will be at an advantage here I think

I think there is far too much choice on the biology paper and they have to do far too few questions considering the amount of choice, either or would have been preferable. I can see massive issues bringing grades down, bell curve or no bell curve !!

jimmytwotimes 2013

SEC backtracks on masks for orals. They created a needlessly anxious week for many.

km79

jimmytwotimes 2013 wrote: »

SEC backtracks on masks for orals. They created a needlessly anxious week for many.

And schools running around trying to buy Perspex screens
Their incompetence never ceases to amaze me

Random sample

km79 wrote: »

And schools running around trying to buy Perspex screens
Their incompetence never ceases to amaze me

Perspex still to be in place.

Glad to see the row back, a lot of people weren’t happy.

noplacehere

jimmytwotimes 2013 wrote: »

SEC backtracks on masks for orals. They created a needlessly anxious week for many.

Source? I’ve one very stressed friend

km79

https://www.asti.ie/document-library/sec-revised-guidance-on-leaving-cert-oral-examinations/sec-circ1321-supplement-24032021.pdf

jimmytwotimes 2013

noplacehere wrote: »

Source? I’ve one very stressed friend

On Radio 1 a while ago

https://www.irishexaminer.com/news/arid-40250582.html

Random sample

From the horses mouth https://www.education.ie/en/Press-Events/Press-Releases/2021-press-releases/PR21-03-24.html

Leftwaffe

There wasn’t one complaint about no masks in our place surprisingly. Think most were happy with the screen and two/three metres. Right decision though.

rainbowtrout

solerina wrote: »

I think there is far too much choice on the biology paper and they have to do far too few questions considering the amount of choice, either or would have been preferable. I can see massive issues bringing grades down, bell curve or no bell curve !!

I would say the same across all the sciences. In my view it's possible to study about 25-30% of the physics course and get a H1, assuming that the material is known inside out.

Polka_Dot

solerina wrote: »

I think there is far too much choice on the biology paper and they have to do far too few questions considering the amount of choice, either or would have been preferable. I can see massive issues bringing grades down, bell curve or no bell curve !!

Absolutely, particularly with the experiment and long questions. Only need to know a handful of experiments and it's guaranteed you will be able to answer a question. Same with the long questions - adding in more questions AND more internal choice means that they're going to be asking a wide variety of topics, so you could almost study any 7/8 topics you want and be in with a good chance of doing well.

am_zarathustra

Ecology, genetics, cell metabolism, 7 experiments, nutrition, cell division short questions, and pick a few of your favourite human anatomy systems to pick up the rest. Done

It's minimal to say the least.

I shudder to think what the papers will be like next year