The way forward for LC2021

Larbre34

Absolutely no justification for not sitting the traditional summer papers at a minimum, in July or August if needs be.

By the time we reached those dates last year, it would have been perfectly fine to utilise them, however preparation hadn't been made. There is no excuse this year.

Advance assessments, orals, presentations, interviews will have to be considered, reworked, dropped if needs be, but CA, project work and the sit down papers should all proceed and the students should be under no illusion about it from this day on.

shesty

Str8outtaWuhan wrote: »

There are too many solicitors will to take a case against the state if they allow certain counties or areas to go back and not others , You can just seen Young Tarquin's mummy engaging her bridge partner the barrister to tell the gov they can't allow boggers in Leitrim access to inschool teaching while her precious is slumming it on Teams.

Reality is LC won't be help til July and Secondary schools teachers will be working June. The seeds were sown last year and the Dept will try it again.

I doubt they will stagger school openings by region, that's a minefield.
I reckon it is a bit early to call what will happen with the LC yet (although you know if we were proactive and planned contingency for these things, then we might be a lot more certain).As things stand, and even based on last year, we should be able to go ahead with the summer element of them though.And if we can't, they should all be well aware of the alternative by some time in March..

thegreatescape

shesty wrote: »

Do we actually know for certain that close contacts are still not being tested?In the last few days, the numbers on all fronts are low enough that surely they have capacity to test close contacts once more.

Unless the HSE website hasn't been updated, they're still not testing close contacts: https://www2.hse.ie/conditions/coronavirus/close-contact-and-casual-contact.html

shesty

Thanks.Although on the basis of general HSE past performence, I wouldn't take that as gospel.But ok, we are assuming they are still not testing close contacts.

shesty

Thanks.Although on the basis of general HSE past performance, I wouldn't take that as gospel.But ok, we are assuming they are still not testing close contacts.

History Queen

Str8outtaWuhan wrote: »

Interesting, many of the teachers I've read on here consider the work they are doing now online as days counted, adding 3-4 more weeks to the teaching year would surely be a hard sell?

It was planned last year before the LC was cancelled to support the LC students forextra weeks up to exams and I would be happy to do that as I was last year. Well, ok maybe not happy but totally willing to do it in the circumstances. I wouldn't do it for everyone else though. Only for the LC because I feel an extended break from tuition before the exams isn't fair. They need support.

Str8outtaWuhan

History Queen wrote: »

It was planned last year before the LC was cancelled to support the LC students forextra weeks up to exams and I would be happy to do that as I was last year. Well, ok maybe not happy but totally willing to do it in the circumstances. I wouldn't do it for everyone else though. Only for the LC because I feel an extended break from tuition before the exams isn't fair. They need support.

Surely your missing the point, If teachers were willing to do it last year, From what I read they were technically working for the 1st two weeks of June on Predictive grades and they work again this june, then las year wasn't a one off but the new normal ? Hard to argue going forward that they shouldn't work in june if they are willing to do it twice?

I envy teachers holidays but not the bull they have to put up with, If i had those holidays I wouldn't dream of giving a day away for fear I'd never get them back.

rainbowtrout

Str8outtaWuhan wrote: »

Interesting, many of the teachers I've read on here consider the work they are doing now online as days counted, adding 3-4 more weeks to the teaching year would surely be a hard sell?

What's this consider business? The days I'm doing at the moment are working days.

History Queen

Str8outtaWuhan wrote: »

Surely your missing the point, If teachers were willing to do it last year, From what I read they were technically working for the 1st two weeks of June on Predictive grades and they work again this june, then las year wasn't a one off but the new normal ? Hard to argue going forward that they shouldn't work in june if they are willing to do it twice?

I envy teachers holidays but not the bull they have to put up with, If i had those holidays I wouldn't dream of giving a day away for fear I'd never get them back.

I see your point but is it any different to teachers giving extra classes after school, coming in to support students during state exams, running extra classes during midterms as has happened before the pandemic? I only speak for myself obviously, but I think many of my colleagues feel the same, well, they did last year, after our treatment by the Dept over the last year or so, maybe not.

Str8outtaWuhan

History Queen wrote: »

I see your point but is it any different to teachers giving extra classes after school, coming in to support students during state exams, running extra classes during midterms as has happened before the pandemic? I only speak for myself obviously, but I think many of my colleagues feel the same, well, they did last year, after our treatment by the Dept over the last year or so, maybe not.

All voluntary, no? I believe that last years proposal was basically "turn up unless you are dying"?

rainbowtrout

History Queen wrote: »

I see your point but is it any different to teachers giving extra classes after school, coming in to support students during state exams, running extra classes during midterms as has happened before the pandemic? I only speak for myself obviously, but I think many of my colleagues feel the same, well, they did last year, after our treatment by the Dept over the last year or so, maybe not.

Teachers choose to do all of those things, they are not obliged to. If it was mandated that we had to work June this year I would not be happy. It would basically say that the work I'm doing right now has no value, and it would send a message to students that they needn't bother showing up to online class because the teacher will make up the time in the holidays. Nope, not up for that.

History Queen

Str8outtaWuhan wrote: »

All voluntary, no? I believe that last years proposal was basically "turn up unless you are dying"?

Yes all voluntary. And last year it was voluntary.

History Queen

rainbowtrout wrote: »

Teachers choose to do all of those things, they are not obliged to. If it was mandated that we had to work June this year I would not be happy. It would basically say that the work I'm doing right now has no value, and it would send a message to students that they needn't bother showing up to online class because the teacher will make up the time in the holidays. Nope, not up for that.

I'm not up for mandated work either. Working from home is working.

mirrorwall14

I’m paying childcare so that I can teach properly remotely. I’m live with all my maths classes everyday. The feedback was universal last Friday that it was working.

They had better not turn around and say this doesn’t count. I’m absolutely blessed that my childminder is doing some school work with my kid but I could have been minding and teaching my own kids if this wasn’t going to count.

km79

There is only one thing certain
It will be a convoluted mess AND Norma will get her pound of teachers flesh .

I wonder what her colleagues in her old school make of all this now

History Queen

mirrorwall14 wrote: »

I’m paying childcare so that I can teach properly remotely. I’m live with all my maths classes everyday. The feedback was universal last Friday that it was working.

They had better not turn around and say this doesn’t count. I’m absolutely blessed that my childminder is doing some school work with my kid but I could have been minding and teaching my own kids if this wasn’t going to count.

I don't think there is any suggestion that remote learning not be counted as class contact days. That would result in absolute chaos.

History Queen

km79 wrote: »

There is only one thing certain
It will be a convoluted mess AND Norma will get her pound of teachers flesh .

I wonder what her colleagues in her old school make of all this now

I've been wondering that too... imagine having worked with her for the last 20 odd years and then seeing her carry on like a little dictator when she gets some power.

mirrorwall14

km79 wrote: »

There is only one thing certain
It will be a convoluted mess AND Norma will get her pound of teachers flesh .

I wonder what her colleagues in her old school make of all this now

I would really be quite concerned going forward that this has irreparably damaged the relationship between teachers and the department, but also between parents and teachers. Teachers are now hurt, tired and feeling unsafe. Parents are hurt, tired and frustrated. And both groups have been pitched at each other by an incompetent minister and department. This does not lead to good outcomes for anyone

Str8outtaWuhan

In Ireland we have a habit of saying the word "voluntary", but meaning the word "expected".

teacher beware!

History Queen

mirrorwall14 wrote: »

I would really be quite concerned going forward that this has irreparably damaged the relationship between teachers and the department, but also between parents and teachers. Teachers are now hurt, tired and feeling unsafe. Parents are hurt, tired and frustrated. And both groups have been pitched at each other by an incompetent minister and department. This does not lead to good outcomes for anyone

Agreed, relationships, hard won, have been left in tatters over this. whatever about the dept/teacher relationship the parent/school relationship is so important. Stupid short-sighted incompetence has got us in to this mess. And yet the general public don't seem to appreciate just how dangerously inept the Dept are.

The Department tried to practically buy compliance from SNAs and special school teachers yet they didn't relent. The public still seem to largely think the unions are in it for selfish reasons.... how?!

r93kaey5p2izun

History Queen wrote: »

I've been wondering that too... imagine having worked with her for the last 20 odd years and then seeing her carry on like a little dictator when she gets some power.

I know nothing about her personally, but I imagine that coming from the family she did, and having been a local councillor for 26 years, that Norma's dedication to the FF party above all else, is of little surprise to those around her.

Bobtheman

No LC students will enter schools until late Feb at the earliest.
Look at how long it's taking special needs?
The idea that kids and adults can go to school while others can't go beyond 5k no longer flies with the unions nor I suspect with many parents. Beyond special needs parents. I appreciate their particular concerns.

rainbowtrout

Bobtheman wrote: »

No LC students will enter schools until late Feb at the earliest.
Look at how long it's taking special needs?
The idea that kids and adults can go to school while others can't go beyond 5k no longer flies with the unions nor I suspect with many parents. Beyond special needs parents. I appreciate their particular concerns.

Ya, I'm not sure what can be done for them, it's not my area of expertise, but it goes back to the fact that since last March not a single thing has been done by the DES to plan for a closure in this academic year.

I would assume that NPHET or whoever gave them the Idiot's Guide to Pandemics at some stage and said there won't just be one wave and you need to have a plan, there will be more waves and more restrictions.

Maybe there's planning going on in the SEC at the moment, maybe there isn't. I damn well hope there is. But you would think that part of the contingency for running things as 'normal' would be at least to start recruitment for examiners so they have people to call on to do the work if it happens? Surely it's not that hard to change the date on last year's application forms and stick them up online? Surely?

Treppen

mirrorwall14 wrote: »

I would really be quite concerned going forward that this has irreparably damaged the relationship between teachers and the department, but also between parents and teachers. Teachers are now hurt, tired and feeling unsafe. Parents are hurt, tired and frustrated. And both groups have been pitched at each other by an incompetent minister and department. This does not lead to good outcomes for anyone

I don't know about damaging the relationship between teachers and parents. There were a few parents on the news yesterday pointing to the minister as trying to split the 'community' that exists within the Special needs realm.

I think the minister tried to play the divide and conquer hand one too many times. This time she assumed that the relationship between students/parents/teachers/SNAs was the same as secondary, but it's not. Parents of kids with special needs are very very clued in to political bull****e , and arent afraid to say so.

mirrorwall14

Treppen wrote: »

I don't know about damaging the relationship between teachers and parents. There were a few parents on the news yesterday pointing to the minister as trying to split the 'community' that exists within the Special needs realm.

I think the minister tried to play the divide and conquer hand one too many times. This time she assumed that the relationship between students/parents/teachers/SNAs was the same as secondary, but it's not. Parents of kids with special needs are very very clued in to political bull****e , and arent afraid to say so.

I’d like to hope so but in past experience there are many parents, particularly those who don’t have children with additional needs who will accept what is told to them by Norma and the media at face value.

Maybe I’ll be proved wrong but Norma Foley on Ciara Kelly this morning.... almost certain to be a bash the teacher segment broadcast to the nation. And I imagine there will be more of the same.

Going by that press release by the department there is no way in hell she will resign and the tone of it is is such that the plan is to blame us

shesty

Well (as a parent) I emailed a local TD a number of weeks ago re: schools closing (my point was they need to commit to a date and not string people along indefinitely, and push responsibility back on the Dept to act strongly to ensure schools are safe, once the date arrives) and I was told "we were going to open schools but we couldn't get agreement from all the education partners". Which I thought was fairly disingenuous, given the fact that the Dept have not covered themselves in glory so far - at all.


That being said, the viciousness of the current row on both sides is appalling, frankly, and it is not painting either side in a good light.

Rosita

mirrorwall14 wrote: »

Going by that press release by the department there is no way in hell she will resign and the tone of it is is such that the plan is to blame us

No way there'' be a resignation to do with basic competence. Political resignations in this country are to do with expenses, drink-driving, being caught leaking stuff, and such semi-detached things like that. The bar of expectation of being really effective and demonstrably competent in your actual work is far lower as the finger can be pointed at someone else.

French Toast

Have other schools cancelled mocks outright or postponed them?

Update recently telling us ours have been postponed until after the February midterm. March-April-May is going to be a hectic 12 weeks if backing everything up is the answer.

Liberal_irony

French Toast wrote: »

Have other schools cancelled mocks outright or postponed them?

Update recently telling us ours have been postponed until after the February midterm. March-April-May is going to be a hectic 12 weeks if backing everything up is the answer.

Postponing, a lot of staff are having to switch from DEB to examcraft so we wouldn't have the papers in time

spurious

Liberal_irony wrote: »

Postponing, a lot of staff are having to switch from DEB to examcraft so we wouldn't have the papers in time

If there is a chance of silly 'predicted' grades in LC again, everyone's mocks have to be run at the same time, or those that hear what was on the paper are at a real advantage.

Treppen

spurious wrote: »

If there is a chance of silly 'predicted' grades in LC again, everyone's mocks have to be run at the same time, or those that hear what was on the paper are at a real advantage.

No hope of standardisation anyway. Especially with DEB gone, examcraft.... well let's just say there will be many teachers making out their own mocks with various things to focus on, and varying levels of difficulty. And we know this time that predicted grades are always on the table, no matter what any minister says.

I suspect the Dept. won't get involved in the area of mocks as that's a definite "local arrangement". Some schools don't even run mocks. Once Norma mentiones mocks the cat is out of the bag with predicted grades.

Wombatman

Treppen wrote: »

No hope of standardisation anyway. Especially with DEB gone, examcraft.... well let's just say there will be many teachers making out their own mocks with various things to focus on, and varying levels of difficulty. And we know this time that predicted grades are always on the table, no matter what any minister says.

I suspect the Dept. won't get involved in the area of mocks as that's a definite "local arrangement". Some schools don't even run mocks. Once Norma mentiones mocks the cat is out of the bag with predicted grades.

If some student's mocks are cancelled then the game is up. Mocks essential to exam prep surely? Students will break Twitter.

Smacruairi

If there's no leaving cert, then mocks almost become the de facto leaving. Which means schools would be stupid to try and run them unless they want a whole heap of trouble. You'd have students appealing their mock results like!

History Queen

Wombatman wrote: »

If some student's mocks are cancelled then the game is up. Mocks essential to exam prep surely? Students will break Twitter.

Some schools don't run mocks at all. They aren't a requirement though I appreciate that they are the norm.

Treppen

Wombatman wrote: »

If some student's mocks are cancelled then the game is up. Mocks essential to exam prep surely? Students will break Twitter.

We're aiming to hold them a week after whenever we go back, students are aware of this so it's game on for Leaving Cert prep too... whenever that it :pac:
Interestingly none of them are writing to newspapers or ranting on twitter like last year's crowd.

Bobtheman

Are LC coming back soon?

Rosita

Minister Foley will have a meltdown on hearing this (perhaps just as well they have so many contingency plans organised!;). It's an awful shame that only a non-politician can speak with this candour.

Transmission levels too high for schools to reopen - Henry

Transmission levels of Covid-19 remain "frankly far too high" for schools to reopen, the HSE's Chief Clinical Officer Dr Colm Henry has said.

Speaking on RTɒs Morning Ireland, he said it is tragic to be talking about school closures again and no one wants to see it protracted because of what children experienced during the first lockdown.

However, he said, transmission levels are currently ten times what they were in early December.

He said this needs to reduce to a much lower level "before we can add to additional risk by the mixing of crowds at school settings".

Dr Henry said he hopes there are elements of education that can be looked at more closely, particularly children with additional needs who are much more vulnerable to school closures and "our hope is there would be priority given to certain elements of the education sector".

He said Ireland remains in a "precarious position" and while there is some positive news with falling levels of disease in the community, there are still "extraordinary levels" of infection.

He said to put that in perspective the average number of cases in the community over the past five days is over 2,500 per day.

"Those cases have yet to become sick, some will require hospitalisation, some unfortunately will require intensive care and some unfortunately will die", he said.

km79

http://twitter.com/Education_Ire/status/1352622159978500102


A big pile of nothing there
No update

micks_address

Rosita wrote: »

Minister Foley will have a meltdown on hearing this (perhaps just as well they have so many contingency plans organised!;). It's an awful shame that only a non-politician can speak with this candour.

Transmission levels too high for schools to reopen - Henry

Transmission levels of Covid-19 remain "frankly far too high" for schools to reopen, the HSE's Chief Clinical Officer Dr Colm Henry has said.

Speaking on RTɒs Morning Ireland, he said it is tragic to be talking about school closures again and no one wants to see it protracted because of what children experienced during the first lockdown.

However, he said, transmission levels are currently ten times what they were in early December.

He said this needs to reduce to a much lower level "before we can add to additional risk by the mixing of crowds at school settings".

Dr Henry said he hopes there are elements of education that can be looked at more closely, particularly children with additional needs who are much more vulnerable to school closures and "our hope is there would be priority given to certain elements of the education sector".

He said Ireland remains in a "precarious position" and while there is some positive news with falling levels of disease in the community, there are still "extraordinary levels" of infection.

He said to put that in perspective the average number of cases in the community over the past five days is over 2,500 per day.

"Those cases have yet to become sick, some will require hospitalisation, some unfortunately will require intensive care and some unfortunately will die", he said.

seems highly likely post primary and primary non special needs will stay at home for month of feb. I'd imagine special needs in primary will return feb 1st.

French Toast

I foresee the announcement that second level students will be brought back February 22nd, the Monday after the midterm break.

High chance of a lot of posturing and aspirational hot air from the DES in the meantime, but that'll be the ultimate outcome.

rainbowtrout

French Toast wrote: »

I foresee the announcement that second level students will be brought back February 22nd, the Monday after the midterm break.

High chance of a lot of posturing and aspirational hot air from the DES in the meantime, but that'll be the ultimate outcome.

Norma will be seething with rage.

mirrorwall14

I don’t know that she will be able to stop the row she has already caused to be honest. From what I hear negotiations are not ideal

mirrorwall14

km79 wrote: »

http://twitter.com/Education_Ire/status/1352622159978500102


A big pile of nothing there
No update

I cannot understand why they don’t just publish some bloody contingency plans and what would cause them to be implemented. This information vacuum is madness

Bobtheman

Ok
I'm. Confused. Not hard you say.
Has Nphet said it's OK to open schools for either special needs or LC? Specifically

maynooth_rules

spurious wrote: »

If there is a chance of silly 'predicted' grades in LC again, everyone's mocks have to be run at the same time, or those that hear what was on the paper are at a real advantage.

I know Examcraft have asked that if exams cant start the first week in febuary, that schools hold off until after the mid term break to begin mocks. Doubt it matters, they are always up on twitter within minutes. Hard to stop unless you have a country wide timetable which will never happen

French Toast

Am I reading the situation wrong or is it possible that despite having much more time to prepare themselves this time around the DES have somehow managed to make this year's Leaving Cert an even bigger shít sandwich than last years?

Str8outtaWuhan

Interesting position the unions are in. The longer the schools close the more likely that the predicted grade bandwagon gains speed or that the LC runs in July August. ISSU fed surveys to the advisory group recently where the massive majority wanted choice but interestingly very few on the students wanted the LC moved from june to july/august lol.

I'd love to know if teachers here think of having to set exams from now to end of year knowing that there is a chance they might count . How much unconscious bias is there towards students?

Treppen

Str8outtaWuhan wrote: »

Interesting position the unions are in. The longer the schools close the more likely that the predicted grade bandwagon gains speed or that the LC runs in July August. ISSU fed surveys to the advisory group recently where the massive majority wanted choice but interestingly very few on the students wanted the LC moved from june to july/august lol.

I'd love to know if teachers here think of having to set exams from now to end of year knowing that there is a chance they might count . How much unconscious bias is there towards students?

From September our students have been assuming every exam would count towards predicted grades.

DES/SEC should start recruiting volunteers for July or August... Not just for the usual June. I'd volunteer to mark or invigilate.

am_zarathustra

Str8outtaWuhan wrote: »

Interesting position the unions are in. The longer the schools close the more likely that the predicted grade bandwagon gains speed or that the LC runs in July August. ISSU fed surveys to the advisory group recently where the massive majority wanted choice but interestingly very few on the students wanted the LC moved from june to july/august lol.

I'd love to know if teachers here think of having to set exams from now to end of year knowing that there is a chance they might count . How much unconscious bias is there towards students?

The ascertainment bias in asking students if they want to sit a bunch of long, hard exams is staggering. If you ask any group of people if they'd like to sit an exam I'd hazard most would say no.

Unconscious bias is a very real effect. They predict grades every year in the A levels for college placement. Way fewer subjects and only 16% of predicted points are correct. And they have exams at the end of 5th years set by exam boards to go off. You can try your best as a teacher but it's hard to separate some students from others and the random changes to grades by the Department were mental, I couldn't make rhyme or reason of them

Wombatman

In terms of schools reopening, Martin warned that schools may remain closed until St Patrick’s Day. “The full million (students) won’t be back” by this date, he said.

He said discussions with the Department of Education and unions are ongoing, and that children with additional needs remain the priority.

He said “a range of options” will be looked at in terms of Leaving Cert exams, adding that an update is expected in the coming weeks.

https://www.thejournal.ie/covid-19-lockdown-ireland-2-5333549-Jan2021/


A range of options eh? Coming weeks could mean 2 or 8.