The way forward for LC2021

Leftwaffe

I’ve also got an Arabic student and I’ve no chance of getting someone for the panel for that either. Curricular language but nobody registered as far as I can see. Nightmare.

gaiscioch

When will the scholars be told their calculated grade? Hopefully not before the exams.

Random sample

gaiscioch wrote: »

When will the scholars be told their calculated grade? Hopefully not before the exams.

It’s my understanding that all results will come out together.

Choochtown

Random sample wrote: »

It’s my understanding that all results will come out together.

Results come as one result. The student will not know if that is their exam grade or their calculated grade.

That's the "assurance" that unions were given by the Department.

Of course the student could always appeal their grade and find out that way!

Random sample

Choochtown wrote: »

Results come as one result. The student will not know if that is their exam grade or their calculated grade.

That's the "assurance" that unions were given by the Department.

Of course the student could always appeal their grade and find out that way!

They would just have to look at their scripts to find out, no appeal necessary.

gaiscioch

8.2 How is the school alignment process organised?
Prior to the alignment process, each subject teacher of a Leaving Certificate class group
drafts the initial estimated percentage marks for each of her/his students and class groups.
Teachers will need to demonstrate that no two students are placed on the same estimated percentage mark. Where there is more than one examination component in
the subject, teachers will have regard to the written element and the additional
assessment component(s). Percentage marks may include up to two decimal places, i.e.
83.22%, 83.33%, etc. Teachers will demonstrate that no two students, at each level
(Higher, Ordinary and Foundation) are placed on the same estimated percentage mark. (https://www.gov.ie/en/publication/7a163-a-guide-to-state-examinations-and-accredited-grades-for-leaving-certificate-2021/)

Quick one. If you've two distinct class groups in the same subject at the same level in the same year that means you hand in two discrete lists as happened last year?

If so, is it possible to put a student in Class A at 95% and a student in Class B at 95%? (I know it's not possible to do it if they're in the same class.)

Or do we just hand in a single list for all our students in the year this time? Grma.

Leftwaffe

gaiscioch wrote: »

Quick one. If you've two distinct class groups in the same subject at the same level in the same year that means you hand in two discrete lists as happened last year?

If so, is it possible to put a student in Class A at 95% and a student in Class B at 95%? (I know it's not possible to do it if they're in the same class.)

Or do we just hand in a single list for all our students in the year this time? Grma.

Two lists for two classes. You can have you’re 2 95’s then.

Alex86Eire

Leftwaffe wrote: »

Two lists for two classes. You can have you’re 2 95’s then.

Oh I thought you had to have different percentages for a particular subject. What would happen if a school had 3 6th years (in 3 different classes) getting 92% in HL maths for example? How would the SEC decide between them if one was being brought down to a H2?

km79

gaiscioch wrote: »

Quick one. If you've two distinct class groups in the same subject at the same level in the same year that means you hand in two discrete lists as happened last year?

If so, is it possible to put a student in Class A at 95% and a student in Class B at 95%? (I know it's not possible to do it if they're in the same class.)

Or do we just hand in a single list for all our students in the year this time? Grma.

Two lists
Yes it’s possible

Random sample

Alex86Eire wrote: »

Oh I thought you had to have different percentages for a particular subject. What would happen if a school had 3 6th years (in 3 different classes) getting 92% in HL maths for example? How would the SEC decide between them if one was being brought down to a H2?

In larger schools you couldn’t have a different mark for every student without veering very far from the curve.

Treppen

Alex86Eire wrote: »

Oh I thought you had to have different percentages for a particular subject. What would happen if a school had 3 6th years (in 3 different classes) getting 92% in HL maths for example? How would the SEC decide between them if one was being brought down to a H2?

Nobody knows how the SEC are going to moderate the teacher's grades.

Bobtheman

I had a few sleepless nights over these grades but realised that the department I will **** it up. Last year they downgraded our grades which were fair and then post outcry went back to our grades. They now their rough bands ie 60-70
I'm being as transparent to the kids as I can. Show them their test results. Showing them the relevant sections from the booklet on accredited grades.
Then I'm telling them we ain't in kansas anymore toto when it comes to the exam with all its modifications

Bobtheman

Random sample wrote: »

If an exam is unfairly downgraded it will go back up on appeal. That process isn’t there for accredited grades.

See my previous post. Last year downgrades occurred even in Deis schools. Then they reversed that.
Thus kids just have to complain and the entire government gives in. In
Thus there was a defacto national appeal

Let's ignore the collapse of thousands of livelihoods and cancer services. Thousands of people will never work again.
But God forbid one leaving cert pupil will be put out. God forbid. They have more back door routes to college than the vietcong had to saigon

Bobtheman

I applied for supervision. Late application date May 7th.
Anybody heard back yet?

gaiscioch

Bobtheman wrote: »

I applied for supervision. Late application date May 7th.
Anybody heard back yet?

I got my 'Appointment letter' for superintendent on 12 April.

The Examiner section said I could be called but as things stand they've a surplus of examiners in most subjects.

Bobtheman

They sent an email looking for extra supervisors not examiners in late April. In certain counties

Proferoxa

gaiscioch wrote: »

The Examiner section said I could be called but as things stand they've a surplus of examiners in most subjects.

I find it strange that the written examiner recruitment is still open if this is the case, given that it was due to close over a month ago? They usually have difficulties finding people to mark for MFLs, do you know if this is the case this year?

Leftwaffe

Do superintendents arrive the day before to set up centres or what does that work? Done superintendent myself before but can’t remember

rainbowtrout

Proferoxa wrote: »

I find it strange that the written examiner recruitment is still open if this is the case, given that it was due to close over a month ago? They usually have difficulties finding people to mark for MFLs, do you know if this is the case this year?

Well with some students opting for predicted grades, there will be less sitting the exams so I'd say less examiners are needed this year.

Bobtheman

Leftwaffe wrote: »

Do superintendents arrive the day before to set up centres or what does that work? Done superintendent myself before but can’t remember

They will provide details in a letter but usually you drop papers to them the day before. The school. Collect and drop. Usually the exam secretary sets it up.

Leftwaffe

Bobtheman wrote: »

They will provide details in a letter but usually you drop papers to them the day before. The school. Collect and drop. Usually the exam secretary sets it up.

That’s right actually I collected papers and dropped them in the day before. Exam sec had room basically set up but I had to put labels on tables, signage, etc. So I should expect them on Tuesday the 8th then. Thanks.

derb12

Leftwaffe wrote: »

That’s right actually I collected papers and dropped them in the day before. Exam sec had room basically set up but I had to put labels on tables, signage, etc. So I should expect them on Tuesday the 8th then. Thanks.

When you say exam secretary do you mean the person from the school who is paid by the dept specifically for state exams? I think it’s called examinations aide?

Leftwaffe

derb12 wrote: »

When you say exam secretary do you mean the person from the school who is paid by the dept specifically for state exams? I think it’s called examinations aide?

Yeah the exam aide.

Bobtheman

Nothing from the SEC about exam supervision.
I applied late for the May 7th date.

Bobtheman

What I mean is there was late applications allowed and I applied by May 7. The closing date

gaiscioch

Anybody get called back into school to fill in new forms for an OL student who decided to tick the Ardleibhéal box for all his subjects for accredited grades?

One of my students had a permanent seat in an OL class and was adamant he would not be sitting the subject. So, he did nothing. I marked him accordingly at OL. Then, I get phoned to say he put HL down for all his subjects, even though he was mostly in OL classes.

And we therefore have to give him a mark at his nominated level, no matter how unlikely it is. Incredible that this is the situation. So, I obviously failed him at HL, until somebody told me a grade of 30% or more at HL is worth 37 points! So I gave him a grade in the 20s, where he gets zero points. He's probably banking on the SEC looking at his JC result and deciding to raise his result due to Covid. Either way, he's trying to game the system.

maynooth_rules

He probably isn't alone in that. Must say giving points to 30-40 at higher level seems a really bad move in my opinion. It's made it very difficult to encourage students who simply are not able for Higher level to drop down.

jimmytwotimes 2013

maynooth_rules wrote: »

He probably isn't alone in that. Must say giving points to 30-40 at higher level seems a really bad move in my opinion. It's made it very difficult to encourage students who simply are not able for Higher level to drop down.

Never under stood the drop to 30% for pts.

Understand less than a 1/3 of what's going on?

Well done, here's some pts for college.

rainbowtrout

gaiscioch wrote: »

Anybody get called back into school to fill in new forms for an OL student who decided to tick the Ardleibhéal box for all his subjects for accredited grades?

One of my students had a permanent seat in an OL class and was adamant he would not be sitting the subject. So, he did nothing. I marked him accordingly at OL. Then, I get phoned to say he put HL down for all his subjects, even though he was mostly in OL classes.

And we therefore have to give him a mark at his nominated level, no matter how unlikely it is. Incredible that this is the situation. So, I obviously failed him at HL, until somebody told me a grade of 30% or more at HL is worth 37 points! So I gave him a grade in the 20s, where he gets zero points. He's probably banking on the SEC looking at his JC result and deciding to raise his result due to Covid. Either way, he's trying to game the system.

No but a student from another school that I teach outside school was telling me that there was a student in her year who had moved to OL maths in fifth year, wasn’t able for HL and when this whole accredited grades thing kicked off wanted to move back to the HL class and the school said no. The student was getting grinds in OL maths outside school and then registered for Applied Maths for HL. I’m going to assume that there won’t be valid evidence to prove the student is capable of a high grade in AM given that they were getting grinds at OL, and also weren’t studying applied maths up to that point. It’s also disappointing to hear of teachers who are willing to sign off on stuff like this in a private capacity.

rainbowtrout

jimmytwotimes 2013 wrote: »

Never under stood the drop to 30% for pts.

Understand less than a 1/3 of what's going on?

Well done, here's some pts for college.

I think the thinking behind it was that a person who scored between 30-39 would have passed the OL paper so were given points equivalent to that so they could move on and not have to repeat the year. I don’t think it’s had the desired effect. Students who are not capable of HL and would score in the low to mid 20s are now aiming for 30 to ‘pass HL’ and then don’t pass it.

Treppen

rainbowtrout wrote: »

No but a student from another school that I teach outside school was telling me that there was a student in her year who had moved to OL maths in fifth year, wasn’t able for HL and when this whole accredited grades thing kicked off wanted to move back to the HL class and the school said no. The student was getting grinds in OL maths outside school and then registered for Applied Maths for HL. I’m going to assume that there won’t be valid evidence to prove the student is capable of a high grade in AM given that they were getting grinds at OL, and also weren’t studying applied maths up to that point. It’s also disappointing to hear of teachers who are willing to sign off on stuff like this in a private capacity.

Once teachers are willing to sign off then it's game over.

I didn't think a school could refuse a student to sit in a higher level class though, parent as primary educator would have final say . Unless issues with class size or timetable!

RealJohn

rainbowtrout wrote: »

I think the thinking behind it was that a person who scored between 30-39 would have passed the OL paper so were given points equivalent to that so they could move on and not have to repeat the year. I don’t think it’s had the desired effect. Students who are not capable of HL and would score in the low to mid 20s are now aiming for 30 to ‘pass HL’ and then don’t pass it.

This is it, and once again, it’s a decent idea, very badly implemented. I think it’s fair enough to give them some points for attempting higher level and falling a bit short, but the fact that the student did fail should also be reflected in the points they receive. A pass (H6) gets you the same points as an O2, and a fail (H7) then gets you the same points as an O3, sending the message “failing higher level is equivalent to 70%+ at ordinary level”. Of course they don’t drop down.
I’m for giving them some points for 30%+ at higher level, but it should be more like the equivalent of an O5 or an O6, not an O3.

rainbowtrout

Treppen wrote: »

Once teachers are willing to sign off then it's game over.

I didn't think a school could refuse a student to sit in a higher level class though, parent as primary educator would have final say . Unless issues with class size or timetable!

It’s not. The panel formed by the school make the final decision on the mark assigned to the student for the accredited grade and can ask for evidence as to how this grade was arrived at. Any school principal with an ounce of cop on wouldn’t sign off on a high grade in HL Applied Maths for a student who is struggling with OL maths. The panel also make the final decision on the mark awarded not the teacher who submitted the grade.

The school can’t stop the student from registering from HL, but the student can’t stop the class teacher from giving a H8 to a student who is doing OL and can’t pass HL class tests.

noplacehere

RealJohn wrote: »

This is it, and once again, it’s a decent idea, very badly implemented. I think it’s fair enough to give them some points for attempting higher level and falling a bit short, but the fact that the student did fail should also be reflected in the points they receive. A pass (H6) gets you the same points as an O2, and a fail (H7) then gets you the same points as an O3, sending the message “failing higher level is equivalent to 70%+ at ordinary level”. Of course they don’t drop down.
I’m for giving them some points for 30%+ at higher level, but it should be more like the equivalent of an O5 or an O6, not an O3.

It should be ranked. 5 makes extra up to 25 marks for the H1. Not a blanket application. It’s completely crazy and these kids will fail any maths based course in college

rainbowtrout

noplacehere wrote: »

It should be ranked. 5 makes extra up to 25 marks for the H1. Not a blanket application. It’s completely crazy and these kids will fail any maths based course in college

UL and DCU used to do this in the 90s. Bonus points for maths on a sliding scale. A1 got 40 points bonus down to C3 which got 5. Points only applied to CAO courses in those colleges.

I still wouldn’t give bonus points for a D/H6 in maths. It doesn’t show any great aptitude for the subject.

RealJohn

I don’t agree with the sliding scale but I do think that the bonus points shouldn’t apply from 40% up. It should really be 60% up (the traditional “honours” cut off), or at least 50% (since 55% isn’t an option anymore).
Getting 40-50% isn’t getting “honours”. It’s getting a pass at higher level.
I get that there’s a rationale to changing the way things are stated but every time there’s a move from something like “honours” to something like “higher level”, some of the meaning is lost, in my opinion.

In fact, as I grow older, I’m starting to think that the old system (which I never experienced - I’m not quite that old) where you got x honours and x passes and you got to third level based on that wasn’t actually a bad system. No points race, pressure greatly reduced, and if you weren’t good enough at third level, you failed.
There’s a case of going back to that, in my opinion, and let the universities set more specific requirements if they like.

sue97

RealJohn wrote: »

I don’t agree with the sliding scale but I do think that the bonus points shouldn’t apply from 40% up. It should really be 60% up (the traditional “honours” cut off), or at least 50% (since 55% isn’t an option anymore).
Getting 40-50% isn’t getting “honours”. It’s getting a pass at higher level.
I get that there’s a rationale to changing the way things are stated but every time there’s a move from something like “honours” to something like “higher level”, some of the meaning is lost, in my opinion.

In fact, as I grow older, I’m starting to think that the old system (which I never experienced - I’m not quite that old) where you got x honours and x passes and you got to third level based on that wasn’t actually a bad system. No points race, pressure greatly reduced, and if you weren’t good enough at third level, you failed.
There’s a case of going back to that, in my opinion, and let the universities set more specific requirements if they like.

I like the idea of a general year in college, you get into a certain college and you learn a little bit of lots of subjects and prove yourself to specialise in a subject. e.g. you want business you have to do well in appropriate subjects, not get in based on H1's in Music, Art, PE, etc.

RealJohn

Oh I absolutely think that relevant subjects should count more too. Subjects like Irish, English and maths should always count for points because they benefit most if not all courses (to some extent at least), but then, relevant subjects should score more than ones that are less relevant.

Choochtown

RealJohn wrote: »

Oh I absolutely think that relevant subjects should count more too. Subjects like Irish, English and maths should always count for points because they benefit most if not all courses (to some extent at least), but then, relevant subjects should score more than ones that are less relevant.

Have to disagree regarding your opinion that Irish should always count.
What is your reasoning for it benefitting "most if not all courses" ?
Gaelscoil students already get a big advantage with Irish being a core subject.
It's also notoriously difficult for students with dyslexia.

RealJohn

Choochtown wrote: »

Have to disagree regarding your opinion that Irish should always count.
What is your reasoning for it benefitting "most if not all courses" ?
Gaelscoil students already get a big advantage with Irish being a core subject.
It's also notoriously difficult for students with dyslexia.

Irish is as relevant to communication in this country as English is. Also, Gaelscoil students don’t have an undeserved advantage. Nothing stopping people from sending their kids to Gaelscoil and they’re all over the country these days. Most importantly though, it’s a core subject (and rightly so) so it should always count for points just for that reason.

And I’d love to see evidence that students have trouble with Irish because the language is difficult, rather than that it’s badly taught.

am_zarathustra

So the kids should be disadvantaged because their parents didn't send them to an Irish school.

I was good at Irish. My parents had a good standard, bits were spoken at home, I went to the gaeltacht ect but by the time I finished school my german was nearly as good. Irish is objectively difficult. Not the most difficult language but tricky to learn without some emersion. Verbs completely change in the past-tense/present-tense/future-tense/ gender or singular-plural tense of the person(s) carrying out the action.........then the possessive, the dreaded Tuiseal Ginideach....this is leanred by instinct really, I know what it should sound like but I would struggle to explain why I'm adding an e to peil to explain I'm playing it.

There is no Hochdeutsch or kings English either, it's a very organic language with varied regional structures. This also makes it tricky. Not a romance language either so grammatical structure is unfamiliar, especially if you aren't an from an Irish houshold with sketchy do be doing verb usage to get you familiar with it.

When comparing how students do in college English and maths grades are very good predictors of outcome. Irish isn't. Not disparaging the language but we shouldn't be deciding who can be an engineer based on it either.

EDIT to note I've a big issue with the curriculum and how it's taught but that's another thread

Treppen

rainbowtrout wrote: »

It’s not. The panel formed by the school make the final decision on the mark assigned to the student for the accredited grade and can ask for evidence as to how this grade was arrived at. Any school principal with an ounce of cop on wouldn’t sign off on a high grade in HL Applied Maths for a student who is struggling with OL maths. The panel also make the final decision on the mark awarded not the teacher who submitted the grade.

The school can’t stop the student from registering from HL, but the student can’t stop the class teacher from giving a H8 to a student who is doing OL and can’t pass HL class tests.

I thought a panel was only formed if the student has been doing the subject outside with an unregistered/unqualified teacher

RealJohn

am_zarathustra wrote: »

So the kids should be disadvantaged because their parents didn't send them to an Irish school.

That isn’t what I said, and you know it.
The rest of what you said was largely rubbish too. Lots of languages have irregular verbs. German has the tuiseal ginideach too (and it’s just as dreaded), as do many other languages. And I’d love to see evidence that suggests that someone with good Irish doesn’t do as well, generally, as someone with good English - the only reason it’s not a good predictor of success at third level across the board is because of the excuses made for it being poorly taught, but I very much suspect that the pattern you see at third level associated with a strong performance in English is also seen associated with a strong performance in Irish.

And as I said, as a core subject, and our national language, it’s entitled to be given equal treatment to English, whether people like that or not.

Newbie20

Slightly off topic but seeing as it’s been mentioned a couple of times in recent posts, I must say it kind of annoys me as an Irish teacher to constantly see “the way it’s taught” given as a reason for students not being good at Irish.
The curriculum is the main problem, too much time needs to be spent on literature.

At least the oral is worth 40% which means you can spend a lot of time on it in class and most students now are actually well able to converse by the time they leave school. (If they lose it after that’s not the teachers fault. I lost my French completely because I didn’t practice it after school)

Unfortunately with the new LC likely to go the way of the disgraceful Junior Cycle Irish, I worry for the near future when that comes in.
Students struggle with Maths and the course is far too long but you rarely hear the same “the way it’s taught” given as a reason for students struggling. Sorry for that little rant!

spurious

Veering a little bit off topic here.

RealJohn or Newbie20 - if you'd like to start another thread on the benefits of Irish, please do. I for one would welcome it.

rainbowtrout

Treppen wrote: »

I thought a panel was only formed if the student has been doing the subject outside with an unregistered/unqualified teacher

No, a panel is required for any student taking a subject outside school. The teacher has to provide details of their qualifications (TC registration). I have taught a few students outside school this year as it happens, and have supplied my registration details and all of the evidence of tests, coursework etc to each school for their panel.

If the person providing you with tuition outside of school is a registered
teacher/tutor, they will be asked to review, and share, the evidence of your
learning available to them and to provide an estimated mark on your likely
performance in the subject. They will be required to cooperate with the panel of
registered teachers in the school who may contact them to discuss the basis for
the estimate that they have provided. The final estimated mark will be
determined by the panel of registered teachers in the school. The external
teacher/tutor will also be expected to provide proof of their registration status,
where applicable. Following completion of these steps, the panel of registered
teachers will provide your estimated mark to the principal/coordinator.

Leftwaffe

Where would I find guidance in which Sundays I have to collect exam papers and bring them back to the school? Feel like I’m missing an important document.

am_zarathustra

RealJohn wrote: »

That isn’t what I said, and you know it.
The rest of what you said was largely rubbish too. Lots of languages have irregular verbs. German has the tuiseal ginideach too (and it’s just as dreaded), as do many other languages. And I’d love to see evidence that suggests that someone with good Irish doesn’t do as well, generally, as someone with good English - the only reason it’s not a good predictor of success at third level across the board is because of the excuses made for it being poorly taught, but I very much suspect that the pattern you see at third level associated with a strong performance in English is also seen associated with a strong performance in Irish.

And as I said, as a core subject, and our national language, it’s entitled to be given equal treatment to English, whether people like that or not.

HEA did analysis on this so it's not something I see, it's what's shown in the data. I read the report at the time but can't find it but here's the reporting

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.irishexaminer.com/news/arid-20134713.html%3ftype=amp

I'm not arguing against Irish being important, my family would all have a high standard but it's simply not as good a predictor as maths or English. Numeracy and literacy are far reaching skill sets.

I had massive advantage in being from a small town, with a good standard of Irish, and pretty good teachers with support from home. Although these factors would be the same for other subjects I do think a language being spoken at home etc is a massive advantage, even just in my aural and oral.

And agreed, the curriculum is a disaster. I wasn't disparaging all Irish teachers but a lot of good ones leave. It's always 21,20 on your timetable in urban areas and outside of a few very strong green areas like Ballymun the kids standard of Irish is appalling. I walked into a 3rd year Irish class and addressed the teacher in Irish, would have been the norm where I was from, everyone thought I had 5 heads. DEIS focuses on literacy and numeracy for a reason.

And it would be regarded as very different linguistically. American state department compiled below but it tracks with most things I've read or people who are multilingual who I've spoken to.

https://en.wikibooks.org/wiki/Wikibooks:Language_Learning_Difficulty_for_English_Speakers

Basically not super hard coz it still uses the same alphabet but not as easy as many other languages, particularly romance languages

spurious

Please stay on topic.

TheValeyard

September 3rd for Results. Personally I think this is far too long, but these are difficult times.


https://www.rte.ie/news/education/2021/0602/1225646-leaving-cert-exams/