When will it all end?

tommybrees

Yup, walking around poolbeg today and everywhere is packed, I definitely think there has been a change of attitude. Old and young people walking around without masks and not a care in the world it seems, only the odd few wearing them.

I would think if a protest was organised now numbers would be strong.

xhomelezz

tommybrees wrote: »

Yup, walking around poolbeg today and everywhere is packed, I definitely think there has been a change of attitude. Old and young people walking around without masks and not a care in the world it seems, only the odd few wearing them.

I would think if a protest was organised now numbers would be strong.

Nope numbers would be low, cuz people can use their brains, that's why.

NeuralNetwork

The point is I don’t think Ireland and organised protests are something that needed. TDs are always in a precarious political position and have to be responsive.

There’s fantasies online that Ireland has some kind of hardcore government. We simply don’t. It flies kites and goes with the flow.

It’s also exactly the reason why we had a mess at Christmas. Nobody wanted to be Scrooge McMean (I hate Santa and Pints) TD.

The public will also react very badly to spiking numbers however, and will conclude they’re incompetent far more quickly than they’re than they’re over conservative.

Public moods can be fickle and hold multiple contradictory opinions at the same time but, I think it’s a huge error to read Irish public opinion based on forums or Twitter, or by assuming it’s like the US and off in blue vs red culture wars.

the kelt

NeuralNetwork wrote: »

They need to take a more nuanced approach to these business restrictions though. I don’t see how something like a big box hardware store can be in anyway more of a risk than a supermarket.

There are loads and load of examples of closed businesses that just makes no sense.

Also with regards to the hospitality sector, we do have some specific issues with pubs, but it seems like as the weather gets better, safe, well distances outdoor dining should be tried and if there’s no spike keeping going with it.

Shouldn’t we be doing experiments like maybe opening some business types in one town & doing mass testing to see what happens to case numbers and then applying that knowledge to policy?!

The cost of doing stuff like that could result in huge benefits.

Yep we should absolutely.

There’s so much that doesn’t make sense but as evidenced over the past few pages certain people treat lockdown like a religion in this country, they know certain things don’t add up, know it’s doesn’t make sense but just can’t bring themselves to admit it.

That’s the biggest issue imho, there’s no nuance, no effort to try something’s like you’ve suggested, none whatsoever, just lockdown with a 5k restriction, bang, go again, bang go again.

I mean we have people here who genuinely are blaming people for braking restrictions being the reason we are in lockdown whilst in their next breath saying sure the restrictions are just a light touch so what’s the issue?

Think about that for a minute!

josip

There's no need for a street march type protest.
It'll just be a subtle protest by choosing what rules make sense for each person to follow and not following all of them mindlessly.
eg. Better to drive (outside 5km) to Glenmalure and climbing Lug, than walking along a crowded Dun Laoghaire pier (inside 5km).

tommybrees

xhomelezz wrote: »

Nope numbers would be low, cuz people can use their brains, that's why.

Yup people with your attitude would have us still living under British rule. Or paying probably close to a thousand euro a year for water charges now.

Ginger n Lemon

end of the road wrote: »

as i said, just ask those who rioted in the netherlands do protests make a difference.
the fact is they lost, restrictions are still in place and the lock down remained after their actions.

Curfew is gone. They got what they wanted.

It is really end of the road for you in this thread isnt it? Credibility : 0.00

:pac:

xhomelezz

tommybrees wrote: »

Yup people with your attitude would have us still living under British rule. Or paying probably close to a thousand euro a year for water charges now.

Lol ok, dunno where did you get this.

Ginger n Lemon

xhomelezz wrote: »

Stupid, stupid and third time stupid. Last thing we need is more loonies posting this shīte.

Are you talking about the hysteria that is still strong in some? Deadly covid resulting in less deaths in 2020 in Ireland than 2019?

That is truly stupid. We finally agree :pac:

NeuralNetwork

It’s more like they just don’t want to put any effort into complicated public health measures or don’t have the resources to, so the measures are ending up being very blunt.

I’m wondering if it’s just down to the fact we’ve had a total underinvestment in public health in general as it was a “non sexy” topic since the end of the polio era.

You’re seeing it across the western world, not just here. Public health seems to be an area nobody wanted to think about in the way they don’t think much about sewage systems because you can’t see them, until they go horribly wrong and overflow on the beach.

There haven’t really been any pandemics or even epidemics in the west in a very long time - to the point we have significant % of populations who were wandering off into anti vaccine la la land over the last few decades, because this is something nobody has any memory of.

It might also be explain why later developed countries like China might be handling it better - big recent public health challenges dealt with and systems that might have faced challenges the USA & Europe past faced in the 1950s & 60s.

xhomelezz

Ginger n Lemon wrote: »

Are you talking about the hysteria that is still strong in some? Deadly covid resulting in less deaths in 2020 in Ireland than 2019?

That is truly stupid. We finally agree :pac:

The only reason for questionable low numbers is, people took precautions, it's as simple. But if you believe otherwise, oh well..

hynesie08

Ginger n Lemon wrote: »

Curfew is gone. They got what they wanted.

It is really end of the road for you in this thread isnt it? Credibility : 0.00

:pac:

Did they yeah?

https://www.politico.eu/article/netherlands-coronavirus-curfew-parliament-overrides-court-ruling/

Allinall

Ginger n Lemon wrote: »

Curfew is gone. They got what they wanted.

It is really end of the road for you in this thread isnt it? Credibility : 0.00

:pac:

Eh.....

https://www.google.ie/amp/s/www.euronews.com/amp/2021/02/20/dutch-senators-approve-new-covid-curfew-law-in-spite-of-court-ruling-striking-it-down

ThunbergsAreGo

NeuralNetwork wrote: »

It’s more like they just don’t want to put any effort into complicated public health measures or don’t have the resources to, so the measures are ending up being very blunt.

I’m wondering if it’s just down to the fact we’ve had a total underinvestment in public health in general as it was a “non sexy” topic since the end of the polio era.

You’re seeing it across the western world, not just here. Public health seems to be an area nobody wanted to think about in the way they don’t think much about sewage systems because you can’t see them, until they go horribly wrong and overflow on the beach.

Dont we spend about 21BN on health and loads of the country still need private health insurance?

Ginger n Lemon

xhomelezz wrote: »

The only reason for questionable low numbers is, people took precautions, it's as simple. But if you believe otherwise, oh well..

What I dont understand, and please correct me if i am wrong, 5% of businesses were shut down in July 2020. Cases were 5 - 10 per day throughout.

Now we have 6 weeks of 95% of businesses closed down, yet cases are 800-1000 per day and dont reduce.

I mean precautions? Really? :pac:

Allinall

Ginger n Lemon wrote: »

What I dont understand, and please correct me if i am wrong, 5% of businesses were shut down in July 2020. Cases were 5 - 10 per day throughout.

Now we have 6 weeks of 95% of businesses closed down, yet cases are 800-1000 per day and dont reduce.

I mean precautions? Really? :pac:

You’re delusional if you think 95% of businesses are shut down.

Ginger n Lemon

Allinall wrote: »

Eh.....

https://www.google.ie/amp/s/www.euronews.com/amp/2021/02/20/dutch-senators-approve-new-covid-curfew-law-in-spite-of-court-ruling-striking-it-down

Whats your point? Law makers introduce temporary curfew while rejection of original 1 is being appealed.

I mean if I was you I'd be ashamed linking that shi*e.

Look - from your article

Dutch senators approved hastily drawn up legislation

What are you doing here? seriously? embarrassing.

hynesie08

Ginger n Lemon wrote: »

What I dont understand, and please correct me if i am wrong, 5% of businesses were shut down in July 2020. Cases were 5 - 10 per day throughout.

Now we have 6 weeks of 95% of businesses closed down, yet cases are 800-1000 per day and dont reduce.

I mean precautions? Really? :pac:

Did we start at 9000 cases last year?

And cases are reducing, that's why there's 95% less cases.....

xhomelezz

Ginger n Lemon wrote: »

What I dont understand, and please correct me if i am wrong, 5% of businesses were shut down in July 2020. Cases were 5 - 10 per day throughout.

Now we have 6 weeks of 95% of businesses closed down, yet cases are 800-1000 per day and dont reduce.

I mean precautions? Really? :pac:

Some people forgot?

And that's gonna be reason for long restrictions, cuz some clowns refuse advice.

NeuralNetwork

ThunbergsAreGo wrote: »

Dont we spend about 21BN on health and loads of the country still need private health insurance?

That’s not what I mean. Most of that goes on expensive, high tech medicine like cancer care, pricy drugs and surgical systems etc etc and all the things that extend our lives and not into public health programmes to prevent disease etc. That hasn’t been a feature of health systems in the developed world since the mid 20th century when TB and polio were effectively deemed over as threats.

I mean things like vaccination clinics, community nursing etc etc and public health monitoring and the kinds of infrastructure and expertise that could control an epidemic. They’d become as relevant as steam engine engineers.

You’ll find most public health research in the west is focused on things like obesity and health promotion, not control of disease outbreaks.

I think that’s likely why many countries in the developed world didn’t react very effectively. It’s just not something we ever really contemplated happening and because medicine is so high tech focused, it was assumed it wouldn’t be a significant challenge if it did happen.

Allinall

Ginger n Lemon wrote: »

Whats your point? Law makers introduce temporary curfew while rejection of original 1 is being appealed.

I mean if I was you I'd be ashamed linking that shi*e.

Look - from your article

Dutch senators approved hastily drawn up legislation

What are you doing here? seriously? embarrassing.

Correcting your incorrect post.

You said the curfew was gone. It isn’t.

Ginger n Lemon

Allinall wrote: »

You’re delusional if you think 95% of businesses are shut down.

You wanna give a more accurate %?

Businesses where external people go to. Obviously hospitals, meat plants, aldis can't be shut down really can they? Unless you think starvation costs at preventing the spread is something that can be considered. Knowing you ... lol.

hynesie08

Ginger n Lemon wrote: »

Whats your point? Law makers introduce temporary curfew while rejection of original 1 is being appealed.

I mean if I was you I'd be ashamed linking that shi*e.

Look - from your article

Dutch senators approved hastily drawn up legislation

What are you doing here? seriously? embarrassing.

Is there a curfew in the Netherlands or not?

There is, you are a waffler.

Ginger n Lemon

Allinall wrote: »

Correcting your incorrect post.

You said the curfew was gone. It isn’t.

Dutch senators approved hastily drawn up legislation underpinning the country's coronavirus curfew late on Friday, ensuring that it will remain in force at least until early March despite a court order on Tuesday that it be scrapped.

This is from your article. Curfew was gone for few days, before desperate politicians drew up some more "hastily drawn up" rubbish.

What happens when appeal is rejected? I am sure you wont be linking that article :pac:

Come back to me next week will ya

ThunbergsAreGo

NeuralNetwork wrote: »

That’s not what I mean. Most of that goes on expensive, high tech medicine like cancer care, pricy drugs and surgical systems etc etc and all the things that extend our lives and not into public health programmes.

I mean things like vaccination clinics, community nursing etc etc and public health monitoring and the kinds of infrastructure and expertise that could control an epidemic. They’d become as relevant as steam engine engineers.

So general "health" and not just to fix things? Yeah that's true, but as you did very unsexy, and costly given our existing HSE IT systems are a sham.

Allinall

Ginger n Lemon wrote: »

You wanna give a more accurate %?

Businesses where external people go to. Obviously hospitals, meat plants, aldis can't be shut down really can they? Unless you think starvation costs at preventing the spread is something that can be considered. Knowing you ... lol.

Who the hell are external people?

Are you drunk?

NeuralNetwork

ThunbergsAreGo wrote: »

So general "health" and not just to fix things? Yeah that's true, but as you did very unsexy, and costly given our existing HSE IT systems are a sham.

It’s not unique to the Irish system. It’s just that when pandemics and epidemics weren’t a threat for 60 years or more, the services become redundant and wither.

I think that’s why we are all suffering from inability to provide a nuanced response though. You’re looking at systems trying to figure out how to do things they haven’t done in a very long time.

I think you’re confusing the concept and study of Public Health - a field within medicine and “public health” as in publicly funded universal health care systems. Same term gets used for both, but I was talking about the former.

Most high spend western systems focus their expenditure on fixing things - cancer care, cardiology, neurosciences, joint replacements, complex life extending or quality of life improving treatments, and simply have not had to focus on nuts and bolts of dealing with outbreaks of contagious diseases in a very long time.

The same applies to things like ICU facilities. The Irish system was too tight, but those aren’t facilities you need vast numbers of sitting there doing nothing either and there are reasons, like age profile of population, why the numbers vary.

For example, if you’ve a lot of people in their 70+ in your population you end up with more serious cardiac procedures, more pneumonia etc etc all of which need more ventilators. So if you compare youngest age group country with oldest, you’ll find differences in profiles of facilités too.

There’s a lot of stuff just wasn’t ever going to be ready for a pandemic.

The biggest issue we have impending for healthcare now is the massive backlog of all the stuff that hasn’t been done for months in what was already a system under pressure before this began.

The longer that stuff stays off line or on slow throughout due to having to deal with covid, the longer those queues get and the worse the outcomes for people are. I wouldn’t be surprised if we see a fall in life expectancy in quite a lot of western countries and it will be due to knock on impacts of COVID on healthcare.

I’m not saying that you can feasibly do a lot more as the risks of infections are huge for a health facility, but it’s a mess and the vaccine programme is pretty much all that seems likely to resolve it.

In terms of opening up again, the absolutely key issue is accelerating the vaccine programme and that’s both an Irish and EU urgent need. Everything that can be thrown at it needs to be.

I would fault the U.K. response for pretty much everything else but they’re getting the vaccine programme spot on.

Ginger n Lemon

Allinall wrote: »

Who the hell are external people?

Are you drunk?

Customers. Customers.

Do meat plants have customers? no.
Do factories have customers? no.



Do restaurants have customers?
Do pubs have customers?
Do retail shops have customers?
Do cinemas have customers?

Seriously whats wrong with you today?

Very disappointing, I am off for a walk - I highly recommend one for you too.

46 Long

markodaly wrote: »

We are averaging 700-800 cases a day, and people are surprised and angry that we are NOT re-opening anytime soon?

Sure, lets just reopen for the craic and see what happens. It is not like we have tried it 3 times now.

Im so glad, the people here are just posting online and are not running the country.

Sure, lets lockdown 5 million people and bring the country to it's knees because 0.016% of the population are catching a disease with a 99% survival rate. For the craic like. Nothing to do with us being the living embodiment of a sunk cost fallacy.

Parachutes

xhomelezz wrote: »

Nope numbers would be low, cuz people can use their brains, that's why.

Unless there's a BLM protest, then half the country could turn up and not a squeak out of anyone.