When will it all end?

Ladylouth

Far right? Far left? Have these labels turned upside down and inside out in the last year? I literally cannot believe that those on the left are not the ones up in arms about lockdown and it's catastrophic impact on society. For me it seems that I am left or far left on most issues and right/far right on lockdown. I abhor GOD and JW's views on most things, but not on this. I suspect their anti-lockdown motivation is very different from mine though. I haven't attended any protests yet, but if this continues, that's where I'll be headed.

The labels are unhelpful. Just an easy excuse for government and media both to ignore normal people whose lives are in turmoil.

stefanovich

Ladylouth wrote: »

Far right? Far left? Have these labels turned upside down and inside out in the last year? I literally cannot believe that those on the left are not the ones up in arms about lockdown and it's catastrophic impact on society. For me it seems that I am left or far left on most issues and right/far right on lockdown. I abhor GOD and JW's views on most things, but not on this. I suspect their anti-lockdown motivation is very different from mine though. I haven't attended any protests yet, but if this continues, that's where I'll be headed.

The labels are unhelpful. Just an easy excuse for government and media both to ignore normal people whose lives are in turmoil.

I was wondering what you had against God and the Jehovah's Witnesses in particular and then it clicked :pac:

stefanovich

Ladylouth wrote: »

For me it seems that I am left or far left on most issues

I don't think you are far left. Far left is gulags and mass extermination.

ypres5

El_Duderino 09 wrote: »

That's not possible. They don't expect approval for vaccines for any under 18s until after autumn 2021. They might have all adults who want the vaccination, vaccinated by then, but definitely for not the whole population.

it's a good thing that children are mostly unaffected by covid then. once the over 60s and medically vulnerable are vaccinated then it's time to start putting lockdown in the rear view mirror

El_Duderino 09

ypres5 wrote: »

it's a good thing that children are mostly unaffected by covid then. once the over 60s and medically vulnerable are vaccinated then it's time to start putting lockdown in the rear view mirror

If you say so. it it doesn't take from the point that we won't have vaccinated everyone who wants a vaccine by the autumn, as the poster said above.

My understanding was that they were estimating 70-80% before any chance of a herd immunity effect and without the under 18s there's no real chance of getting that high. Maybe the estimates have changed.

Ladylouth

stefanovich wrote: »

I don't think you are far left. Far left is gulags and mass extermination.

Well you can rule me out of that so!!

Left and right are a relatively new thing in Irish politics. It used to be pro or anti treaty or some sort of working class people (Labour) / eternally unemployed (PBP types) parties.

We don't have any right wing parties of any size in Ireland. FG are a centrist party and everyone else is to the left of them. Except when it comes to lockdowns. Then all the parties are outdoing themselves with far right fascist policies. Keep out the foreigners, or lock them in hotels under armed guard and make them pay ! Ban all protests, or only allow the ones we agree with ! Have police interrogate private citizens at every opportunity !

And the further left they are, the more they support the above.

Funny isn't it ?

monkeybutter

Blueshirts ...cough

Kunta Kinte

Deleted User wrote: »

Hopefully he's speaking metaphorically.

Given that particular poster`s previous comments I don`t believe that to be the case.

Micky 32

El_Duderino 09 wrote: »

That's not possible. They don't expect approval for vaccines for any under 18s until after autumn 2021. They might have all adults who want the vaccination, vaccinated by then, but definitely for not the whole population.

I was referring to adults that are mostly at risk, over 18’s . The people that matter that will get us on our way to normality.

It’s quite possible under 18’s could be approved by then.

Risteard81

Ladylouth wrote: »

I literally cannot believe that those on the left are not the ones up in arms about lockdown and it's catastrophic impact on society.

I can only speak for myself, but I am completely opposed to these measures. I consider them to be an act of Treason.

Micky 32

ypres5 wrote: »

it's a good thing that children are mostly unaffected by covid then. once the over 60s and medically vulnerable are vaccinated then it's time to start putting lockdown in the rear view mirror

I wouldn’t bother, the poster is trying to find everything and anything to argue about getting our freedoms back and normality. The poster will be sorely disappointed come end of the year.

There will be very few hospitalizations even if the under 18’s are not vaccinated.

Risteard81

Deleted User wrote: »

FG are a centrist party and everyone else is to the left of them.

I would consider them to be centre-right at best. FF are also centre-right in my opinion, though perhaps slightly less to the right than FG.

El_Duderino 09

Micky 32 wrote: »

I was referring to adults that are mostly at risk, over 18’s . The people that matter that will get us on our way to normality.

Right, but not really normality, as in, achieving herd immunity.

If that were achievable before winter then I think we could reasonably expect to drop restrictions and not need them for the winter and beyond. But since that's not what we're talking about, the winter remains uncertain.

El_Duderino 09

Micky 32 wrote: »

I wouldn’t bother, the poster is trying to find everything and anything to argue about getting our freedoms back and normality. The poster will be sorely disappointed come end of the year.

There will be very few hospitalizations even if the under 18’s are not vaccinated.

I want things to get back to normal, same as everyone.

I just want the discussion to be based in reality rather than just discussing what I want to happen.

Micky 32

El_Duderino 09 wrote: »

I want things to get back to normal, same as everyone.

I just want the discussion to be based in reality rather than just discussing what I want to happen.

Yes and i am basing it on reality. We get the masses vaccinated = less hospitalization = normality begins to resume.


You are failing to grasp that concept.

There won’t be any lockdown next winter.

Quazzie

Deleted User wrote: »

I've said this before and was ridiculed. These protests are like the 1916 rising,

I have to say this is the funniest thing I've read on Boards for a very long time. To compare a war for a countries independence to a protest so we can stop wearing masks.

:D:D

That's after really brightening up my day

El_Duderino 09

Micky 32 wrote: »

Yes and i am basing it on reality. We get the masses vaccinated = less hospitalization = normality begins to resume.


You are failing to grasp that concept.

There won’t be any lockdown next winter.

I haven't said there will be a lockdown next winter.

I get the concept. Fewer hospitalisations and normality begins to resume. In an environment without restrictions and without herd immunity; do hospitalisations and deaths stay low enough to mean we don't need any restrictions during winter? We don't know the answer to that yet. Only time will tell.

Quazzie

Quazzie wrote: »

I have to say this is the funniest thing I've read on Boards for a very long time. To compare a war for a countries independence to a protest so we can stop wearing masks.

:D:D

That's after really brightening up my day

It's not a protest about masks, but you would know that if you cared to look into it. Like Connolly wanted to set up some socialist utopia. Pearse was away with the fairies with some sort of Norse like ubermensch hero stories - today would be considered far right. DeValera's comely maidens dancing at the crossroads. Ultimately though it was these crackpots who sparked a wider movement that had very little to do with the original founders. That's the point.

Kunta Kinte

Risteard81 wrote: »

I can only speak for myself, but I am completely opposed to these measures. I consider them to be an act of Treason.

But you are speaking for yourself. Only a barely noticeable minority believe in this "treason" bull****e that you constantly harp on about.

Micky 32

El_Duderino 09 wrote: »

I haven't said there will be a lockdown next winter.

I get the concept. Fewer hospitalisations and normality begins to resume. In an environment without restrictions and without herd immunity; do hospitalisations and deaths stay low enough to mean we don't need any restrictions during winter? We don't know the answer to that yet. Only time will tell.

We know how effective the vaccines are. By next winter the old/vulnerable and most adults will definately be completed. I can’t see much serious illness going around by then.

MadYaker

Risteard81 wrote: »

Agreed, except I wouldn't describe people venting their just rage as "scumbags" or "crackpots". It is entirely predictable what happened. I said last year that maintaining such population control will inevitably end with politicians being hanged from lampposts.

Yeah and you were wrong about it then, you’re still wrong about it now and what have you learned? Nothing. Every opinion poll reported in the media shows that the majority support some form of restrictions to control the virus. You wanted to cancel all restrictions and just let it rip with all that entails. Your opinions on this are extremist, not based on science and in the minority. The mass economic devastation and widespread civil disobedience that some loopers keep predicting is never going to arrive. This talk is starting to sound like the Americans that still think trump won the election.

MadYaker

MadYaker wrote: »

Yeah and you were wrong about it then, you’re still wrong about it now and what have you learned? Nothing. Every opinion poll reported in the media shows that the majority support some form of restrictions to control the virus. You wanted to cancel all restrictions and just let it rip with all that entails. Your opinions on this are extremist, not based on science and in the minority. The mass economic devastation and widespread civil disobedience that some loopers keep predicting is never going to arrive. This talk is starting to sound like the Americans that still think trump won the election.

There is a big difference between "let her rip" "some form of restrictions" and open ended full lockdown. Most sane people are in favour of some form of restrictions. The jorunal.ie recenty published a poll saying that Irish people are positively ecstatic with the current restrictions, so I wouldn't put too much faith in polls at the moment.

Risteard81

Kunta Kinte wrote: »

But you are speaking for yourself. Only a barely noticeable minority believe in this "treason" bull****e that you constantly harp on about.

Just because I'm speaking for myself doesn't alter that what I have stated is a fact rather than merely opinion or conjecture.

Batattackrat

Do people actually abide by the 5KM restrictions? Anyone I know don't whatsoever.

Can't keep everything locked up if hospital numbers are manageable.

In 17/18 4000 in hospital with flu and 173 in ICU.

Time to move to Level 2 when all over 70's are vacinated and go from there then.

Batattackrat

Batattackrat wrote: »

Do people actually abide by the 5KM restrictions? Anyone I know don't whatsoever.

Can't keep everything locked up if hospital numbers are manageable.

In 17/18 4000 in hospital with flu and 173 in ICU.

Time to move to Level 2 when all over 70's are vacinated and go from there then.

You want to be careful now.Certain people on this forum would be offended that you would go outside your 5km

6541

My father who is in the 80 - 85 age bracket has just got the first Jab, the second Jab is due first week in April.
The procedure was as efficient as one could get - basically a drive through inoculation in a medical centers car park.
Car park was full with people coming and going. They must be getting through hundreds today.
Looks to me that we are getting to the end of this.

Batattackrat

Batattackrat wrote: »

Can't keep everything locked up if hospital numbers are manageable.

In 17/18 4000 in hospital with flu and 173 in ICU.

Time to move to Level 2 when all over 70's are vacinated and go from there then.

Hard to believe this is even controversial. Also, spare me the "variants" nonsense. Flu mutates far more than SARS CoV2 does.

Kunta Kinte

Risteard81 wrote: »

Just because I'm speaking for myself doesn't alter that what I have stated is a fact rather than merely opinion or conjecture.

No, a completely false statement. Just because you and a tiny tiny minority believe the implementation of the restrictions measures is an "act of treason" does not make it a fact.

Hellrazer

El_Duderino 09 wrote: »

If you say so. it it doesn't take from the point that we won't have vaccinated everyone who wants a vaccine by the autumn, as the poster said above.

My understanding was that they were estimating 70-80% before any chance of a herd immunity effect and without the under 18s there's no real chance of getting that high. Maybe the estimates have changed.

We dont need herd immunity once our over 65s and vulnerable are vaccinated.

We`ve had 4452 deaths so far WITH covid. 92% of them were in over 65s and 93% of all deaths had an underlying condition.

4096 over 65s died WITH covid. That leaves 356 under 65s that died with covid.

Now 93% of all covid deaths have underlying conditions so out of that 356 only 25 healthy people have died from covid 19.

**No reason to stay locked down once our vulnerable (those with underlying conditions) and over 65s are vaccinated.**

Kunta Kinte

Deleted User wrote: »

You want to be careful now.Certain people on this forum would be offended that you would go outside your 5km

How are the shebeen shenanigans going? Anyone rumbled you yet?:)

Kunta Kinte

Kunta Kinte wrote: »

How are the shebeen shenanigans going? Anyone rumbled you yet?:)

Going great . Another session on Sunday for the rugby and one on Paddys day

ELM327

Hellrazer wrote: »

We dont need herd immunity once our over 65s and vulnerable are vaccinated.

We`ve had 4452 deaths so far WITH covid. 92% of them were in over 65s and 93% of all deaths had an underlying condition.

4096 over 65s died WITH covid. That leaves 356 under 65s that died with covid.

Now 93% of all covid deaths have underlying conditions so out of that 356 only 25 healthy people have died from covid 19.

No reason to stay open once our vulnerable (those with underlying conditions) and over 65s are vaccinated.

Once we have reached a critical mass of vaccines (ie once everyone who needs one gets one, and someone can request one from their GP or whoever and get it that day without delay then we should be back to normal.


As someone who has underlying health conditions to be honest I think we should reopen the economy now (maintaining masking and social distancing) and allow folks like me to stay at home. The death and ICU rate does not seem excessive enough to have warranted a 1 year+ shutdown.

monkeybutter

ELM327 wrote: »

Once we have reached a critical mass of vaccines (ie once everyone who needs one gets one, and someone can request one from their GP or whoever and get it that day without delay then we should be back to normal.


As someone who has underlying health conditions to be honest I think we should reopen the economy now (maintaining masking and social distancing) and allow folks like me to stay at home. The death and ICU rate does not seem excessive enough to have warranted a 1 year+ shutdown.

the death numbers are what they are because of the lockdown

ELM327

monkeybutter wrote: »

the death numbers are what they are because of the lockdown

Yes absolutely and it was the right thing to do initially, but we are past that time now.


We know that masking and distancing works.

billyhead

6541 wrote: »

My father who is in the 80 - 85 age bracket has just got the first Jab, the second Jab is due first week in April.
The procedure was as efficient as one could get - basically a drive through inoculation in a medical centers car park.
Car park was full with people coming and going. They must be getting through hundreds today.
Looks to me that we are getting to the end of this.

How was your father notified of his appointment? Was it a letter?

Hellrazer

monkeybutter wrote: »

the death numbers are what they are because of the lockdown

The lockdowns didnt save 95,000 people as was the "experts" predictions when covid entered Ireland.

monkeybutter

ELM327 wrote: »

Yes absolutely and it was the right thing to do initially, but we are past that time now.


We know that masking and distancing works.

that is the plan though a move to level 3, hopefully the summer will have numbers lower than last year

monkeybutter

Hellrazer wrote: »

The lockdowns didnt save 95,000 people as was the "experts" predictions when covid entered Ireland.

how many did it save?

ELM327

monkeybutter wrote: »

that is the plan though a move to level 3, hopefully the summer will have numbers lower than last year

Level 3 is not enough.
It should be back to all open, except masking and distancing to continue.

JDD

I agree. Once over-70's and high risk vulnerable are vaccinated we should go to Level 2, automatically. Indoor concerts and outdoor spectators should be allowed once it's all seated and there is two seats between each household group and every second row empty. Indoor events should remain masked for the moment.

monkeybutter

ELM327 wrote: »

Level 3 is not enough.
It should be back to all open, except masking and distancing to continue.

that experiment failed in december, it may have had aggravating factors so its best to be cautious and prevent need for another level 5 The cost sunk in at this point doesn't merit the risk to just blanket reopening and who do you think will be blamed if it doesn't work i mean no ones perfect but at least the government isn't reckless, which is what you want you don't want boris or trump etc

ELM327

I'm in a cohort that are likely to be affected badly by the virus, hence I am now working from home and only going out for shopping and childcare reasons.

I don't think that the 99.5% of cases that do not result in death/ICU admission should necessitate a lockdown for everyone.

The vaccine is nearly here. We need to open up. We've done our time.

EDIT: You mention Trump and Boris. Both the US and UK have more pro rate vaccines delivered than we do?

monkeybutter

JDD wrote: »

I agree. Once over-70's and high risk vulnerable are vaccinated we should go to Level 2, automatically. Indoor concerts and outdoor spectators should be allowed once it's all seated and there is two seats between each household group and every second row empty. Indoor events should remain masked for the moment.

so June? running outdoor events like that at less than 50% capacity will be run at a loss, so who would run them

JDD

monkeybutter wrote: »

that experiment failed in december, it may have had aggravating factors so its best to be cautious and prevent need for another level 5 The cost sunk in at this point doesn't merit the risk to just blanket reopening and who do you think will be blamed if it doesn't work i mean no ones perfect but at least the government isn't reckless, which is what you want you don't want boris or trump etc

No one was vaccinated in December. It's different now.

Hellrazer

monkeybutter wrote: »

how many did it save?

Well it didnt save 95k - so how about you tell me how many you think the lock downs saved preferably based on real data.


Covids death rate as a % of the entire population is 0.08-0.09% - So even if every single man,woman and child in the state got covid and the death rate was 0.5% our deaths would only be 23500.If it was 1 % it would be 47000




Now that figure is in hindsight and a year ago we didnt know what the death rate was - it could have been 10% - it could have been 20%

So yes lockdowns were called for in the beginning just in case it was 10% or higher.

However by the autumn last year we knew it was a fairly low percentage - WHO estimated it at 0.64% and there was no way that we were ever going to have 100k deaths. Lock downs were uncalled for at this low a death rate.

JDD

monkeybutter wrote: »

so June? running outdoor events like that at less than 50% capacity will be run at a loss, so who would run them

Dunno about that. Professional sports matches are happening anyway, better to have 10,000 fans in the stands paying for tickets. Yes, it's not as lucrative as 20,000 fans, but it's something.

Concerts that might have been played in smaller venues will need to be played in bigger ones. Those bigger venues will be glad of the business since their normal larger events won't be able to go ahead.

Loads of outdoor music venues will be delighted to hold events even if they have to pay for the hire of 5000 fold out chairs. And people will probably pay a premium to see a live show again.

mcsean2163

monkeybutter wrote: »

how many did it save?

None/ loads, we'll never know. Finland did ok without lockdown but Sweden did not etc.
.
Pro lockdown people will claim 90,000 lifes saved, anti lockdown people will say potential deaths exaggerated.

monkeybutter

ELM327 wrote: »

I'm in a cohort that are likely to be affected badly by the virus, hence I am now working from home and only going out for shopping and childcare reasons.

I don't think that the 99.5% of cases that do not result in death/ICU admission should necessitate a lockdown for everyone.

The vaccine is nearly here. We need to open up. We've done our time.

EDIT: You mention Trump and Boris. Both the US and UK have more pro rate vaccines delivered than we do?

did you miss the rest of the year though?

Both got covid due to moronic personal stupidity, thats the tip of the iceberg

The vaccine delivery has only gotten started, maybe we should judge after the fact

they are moving towards opening up

you are lucky, you have an underlying condition that doesn't stop you getting a vaccine and you had the sense to treat it seriously

You might have only avoided it because the rest of the population were in lockdown

monkeybutter

Hellrazer wrote: »

Well it didnt save 95k - so how about you tell me how many you think the lock downs saved preferably based on real data.


Covids death rate as a % of the entire population is 0.08-0.09% - So even if every single man,woman and child in the state got covid and the death rate was 0.5% our deaths would only be 23500.If it was 1 % it would be 47000




Now that figure is in hindsight and a year ago we didnt know what the death rate was - it could have been 10% - it could have been 20%

So yes lockdowns were called for in the beginning just in case it was 10% or higher.

However by the autumn last year we knew it was a fairly low percentage - WHO estimated it at 0.64% and there was no way that we were ever going to have 100k deaths. Lock downs were uncalled for at this low a death rate.

hmm those stats are because of the lockdown


thats their worst case scenario, estimated 1 year ago



so you don't know how many it saved do ya, it could have been 40k, it could have been 10k


december and jan showed the tip of the iceberg of what it could have been like