When will it all end?

doublejobbing 2

doublejobbing 2 wrote: »

I always find it bizarre .......

Yup ......... wasters.......... fierce complicated folk to figure out :pac:

lee_baby_simms

Alf Veedersane wrote: »

Well that's incorrect according to actual data as opposed to made up numbers.

2017/2018 was the worst flu season in the last decade with 261 deaths. 96 confirmed, the balance probable. Majority of the rest in that timeframe were less than half that.

But what about the people who died “with flu”? Surely we should do that to compare to Covid numbers.

Quazzie

niallo27 wrote: »

Very hard to differentiate though, its impossible to know how many would have died anyway with or without it, but it seems taboo on here to ask that question or dare say people would have died anyway.

I think the reason it is taboo on here is that it is usually the question asked by people who are trying to downplay the seriousness of covid. These same people (look up for examples) are the ones who call it not much more than a flu while denying that there are many people still suffering long term effects of Covid on a daily basis.

The_Brood

It will not end until the members of this government are in prison for making disastrous decisions that have destroyed people's lives, and quite literally cost lives by keeping schools open this long.

Alf Veedersane

partyguinness wrote: »

They die with Covid. We are not given the figures for those that die purely from Covid.

I'm not sure why that's an issue. If someone contracts pneumonia because they have covid and subsequently die of respiratory failure, would you class that as 'with' or 'of'?

partyguinness wrote: »

I saw a death cert of a guy (aged 73 fit and healthy) last March. Walked himself into A&E with severe stomach cramps. As it turned out he was having a thoracic aneurysm. Emergency surgery etc the works and was laid up in ICU for a week and all sorts of well known complications arose from that type of incident. Never regained consciousness. Bottom line is he didnt make as such an aneurysm has a very high mortality rate. Low and behold Covid is then listed on his death cert (3rd in the sequence) as he also tested positive. He was a goner anyway but no way he died from Covid but rather with it.

I don't have a medical background so it's not for me to say if it didn't precipitate the chain of events that caused it but someone with medical training might know better.

niallo27

Quazzie wrote: »

I think the reason it is taboo on here is that it is usually the question asked by people who are trying to downplay the seriousness of covid. These same people (look up for examples) are the ones who call it not much more than a flu while denying that there are many people still suffering long term effects of Covid on a daily basis.

If someone has covid on the list of the cause of death, lets say 3rd or 4th. Is this death included in the figures we see every day.

partyguinness

I think Govs should have more cameras in ICU wards to go around (with appropriate consents) the hospitals interviewing and videoing families saying their last goodbyes behind screens- that should hammer home a few points.

Alf Veedersane

lee_baby_simms wrote: »

But what about the people who died “with flu”? Surely we should do that to compare to Covid numbers.

I said 'confirmed', not 'with flu'. 'Notified' would have been more accurate.

partyguinness

niallo27 wrote: »

If someone has covid on the list of the cause of death, lets say 3rd or 4th. Is this death included in the figures we see every day.

I believe so.

Well certainly in the UK it is. The list are deaths of people who tested positive for Covid in the past 28 days. Covid may have been a significant factor or none at all. Still makes the list.

lee_baby_simms

Alf Veedersane wrote: »

I'm not sure why that's an issue. If someone contracts pneumonia because they have covid and subsequently die of respiratory failure, would you class that as 'with' or 'of'?




I don't have a medical background so it's not for me to say if it didn't precipitate the chain of events that caused it but someone with medical training might know better.

My understanding based on conversations with a GP is as follows.

In a hypothetical situation, if you have a patient in a care home with stage IV cancer or advanced dementia and dies after testing positive for Covid it’s recorded on cert as the terminal illness with secondary cause listed as Covid but it’s registered with the HSE as a Covid death.

The same profile of patient in 2019 gets the flu and dies it’s recorded as the cancer/dementia etc with secondary cause as flu but it isn’t listed as a flu death as there was a terminal illness present.

Maybe I’m wrong and happy to be corrected but maybe that’s why comparing flu and Covid deaths isn’t useful.

partyguinness

partyguinness wrote: »

Speaking a nurse over the weekend who works in a large acute hospital here in England. She said that basically the number of deaths are greatly exaggerated. I am not peddling some crazy hoax theories- far from it.

One of the reasons is to speed up the release of bodies to the Muslim communities hence why the apparently disportionate high Covid deaths among the Asian communities. Basically hospitals are sticking down Covid on the death cert even if they may have it but it does not follow that was the cause of death but nevertheless it is included in the headline figures.

In fact, she is the second nurse (next door neighbour and in a different hospital) to say they same thing to me and an A&E consultant in a different hospital again said the same. All unrelated and separate conversations.

As somebody who actually works in a hospital. This is absolute nonsense (and slightly racist). Your friends are "extracting the urine" out of you.

Alf Veedersane

niallo27 wrote: »

If someone has covid on the list of the cause of death, lets say 3rd or 4th. Is this death included in the figures we see every day.

Where it is on the list of underlying causes isn't necessarily relevant. If respiratory failure is first, then pneumonia then covid is third, then it's stating that covid caused the pneumonia which caused the respiratory failure and recording it as a covid death is perfectly valid.

Alf Veedersane

lee_baby_simms wrote: »

My understanding based on conversations with a GP is as follows.

In a hypothetical situation, if you have a patient in a care home with stage IV cancer or advanced dementia and dies after testing positive for Covid it’s recorded on cert as the terminal illness with secondary cause listed as Covid but it’s registered with the HSE as a Covid death.

The same profile of patient in 2019 gets the flu and dies it’s recorded as the cancer/dementia etc with secondary cause as flu but it isn’t listed as a flu death as there was a terminal illness present.

Maybe I’m wrong and happy to be corrected but maybe that’s why comparing flu and Covid deaths isn’t useful.

It's not useful in the slightest, It's whataboutery.

But I simply corrected the poster who stated that there were 600+ deaths every flu season.

seamusk84

God the bickering on these Covid forums in recent days would do your head in.

Anyhow, I think once we get the 65+ cohort done we should be looking to move back to Level 2. Level 3 should be enacted once Priority Groups 1+2 are complete.

So I'm optimistic:

Level 3 by End of March/Mid-March (After Paddy's day most likely)
Level 2 by end of April

Here's hoping.

partyguinness

Deleted User wrote: »

As somebody who actually works in a hospital. This is absolute nonsense. Your friends are "extracting the urine" out of you.

I am not sure what type of friends you have but nurses and A&E consultants do not joke about such matters. I have no reason to doubt experienced and very serious medical personal in separate conversations and based in three separate hospitals.

I am not entirely sure why some people find it so hard to believe. It really is not controversial.

Obviously, it may be a shock to some posters in Ireland but that is because you do not have large Asian or Muslim population so you are simply not familiar with the cultural quirks. If I was still living in Ireland, I wouldn’t have a clue either.

lee_baby_simms

seamusk84 wrote: »

God the bickering on these Covid forums in recent days would do your head in.

No it wouldn’t.

Quazzie

partyguinness wrote: »

If I was still living in Ireland, I wouldn’t have a clue either.

It's not exclusive to living in Ireland

:P

AdamD

Quazzie wrote: »

Pointing out that figure is just reinforcement that lockdowns, and all the other measures do work. We avoided that figure due to the actions taken. You almost sound disappointed that more people didn't die.

This is dreadful logic. Predicting 100k people would die was just a terrible prediction. Yes restrictions saved lives, yes deaths would have been higher without them, but no you can't defend the 100k dead prediction by saying we avoided it due to restrictions. It was just miles wide of the mark to begin with.

He may as well have said 1m dead, but sure we'll never know because we had restrictions! Nope, still a load of crap.

CalamariFritti

seamusk84 wrote: »

God the bickering on these Covid forums in recent days would do your head in.

Anyhow, I think once we get the 65+ cohort done we should be looking to move back to Level 2. Level 3 should be enacted once Priority Groups 1+2 are complete.

So I'm optimistic:

Level 3 by End of March/Mid-March (After Paddy's day most likely)
Level 2 by end of April

Here's hoping.

When do you think we should retire the levels and go back to normal?

AdamD

Kermit.de.frog wrote: »

In some ways it doesn't really "end" OP.

The virus will never be eliminated in our lifetimes.

Some changes will be permanent like mask wearing in certain indoor environments, cultural changes in dining out, in my opinion "wet pubs" will never reopen, social distancing measures in shopping venues (although I see this being relaxed in 2022), distancing in work places, those plastic barriers separating customers from till operators etc etc etc...

Yearly vaccinations for everybody is a real possibility already flagged in the UK and other countries.

People won't notice the changes as much as they would have last year because they are now so use to it.

The world has changed in many ways from January 2020.

Although it is important to point out that many things haven't changed. When we can do away with tough restrictions the above are just irritants for most people but inconsequential overall.

Wet pubs will never reopen?

Get the impression some will be disappointed when their end of times fantasy doesn't live out

Rodin

There'll be no "normal" this year

begbysback

Quazzie wrote: »

What headlines state numbers that died FROM covid. If there are any then it is deliberately misleading as these figures are never released. All official figures are for people who have died WITH covid.

Just as a reference here is the RTE website from recently.

https://www.rte.ie/news/2021/0110/1188782-coronavirus-ireland/

Which is exactly why the nonsense reported should be ignored, and only excess deaths figure actually matters. But if that are the case sure we would have to open everything back up, why? Because excess deaths is minimal to non existent.

partyguinness

Deleted User wrote: »

As somebody who actually works in a hospital. This is absolute nonsense (and slightly racist). Your friends are "extracting the urine" out of you.

Hold on. How in God's name is my post 'slightly racist'?

So pointing out and alluding to cultural and religious sensitivities is 'racist'. Go away from me...:rolleyes:

Cerveza

Rodin wrote: »

There'll be no "normal" this year

I’m embracing the new different.

Alf Veedersane

begbysback wrote: »

Because excess deaths is minimal to non existent.

Not according to the CSO.

Quazzie

AdamD wrote: »

This is dreadful logic. Predicting 100k people would die was just a terrible prediction. Yes restrictions saved lives, yes deaths would have been higher without them, but no you can't defend the 100k dead prediction by saying we avoided it due to restrictions. It was just miles wide of the mark to begin with.

He may as well have said 1m dead, but sure we'll never know because we had restrictions! Nope, still a load of crap.

Prove it? The truth is you cannot prove it, just like he can't prove that it is accurate. We will never know, but I'm glad we'll never know.

begbysback wrote: »

Which is exactly why the nonsense reported should be ignored, and only excess deaths figure actually matters. But if that are the case sure we would have to open everything back up, why? Because excess deaths is minimal to non existent.

Excess figures don't allow for the fact that in general deaths have been down due to the other positive effects of isolation on general sickness transmission.

Samsonsmasher

Quazzie wrote: »

Pointing out that figure is just reinforcement that lockdowns, and all the other measures do work. We avoided that figure due to the actions taken. You almost sound disappointed that more people didn't die.

The virus is 98% less deadly than first thought.

During the summer I witnessed streets public parks beaches and beauty spots jammed with people with zero social distancing or masks and there were zero deaths and zero cases.
Isn't it interesting that cases rocket and deaths go up in the winter?
We have been told for the past two weeks now that deaths will be in the hundreds per day.
There is no sign of that.
Every year at this time of year our hospitals are overwhelmed by flu cases.

This whole thing is a total joke.

Thats me

seamusk84 wrote: »

Anyhow, I think once we get the 65+ cohort done we should be looking to move back to Level 2.

As of 9-Jan-2021, Ireland had 3893 hospitalisations of 65+ in total. And 3415 hospitalisations of younger people. Almost same numbers. Not too much difference will HS be overloaded by 65+ or it will be overloaded by younger people as it will be overloaded anyway if restrictions lifted and younger cohorts will return to their usual business - spreading infection. So I afraid L5 will still be here for few weeks more.

Samsonsmasher

Samsonsmasher wrote: »

.........

This whole thing is a total joke.

Yeah, the developed world is costing itself billions for the craic.

Quazzie

Samsonsmasher wrote: »

This whole thing is a total joke.

Except for anyone who had Covid and currently suffering with long term effects.

Or did you just mean it's a joke to you?