When will it all end?

El_Duderino 09

the kelt wrote: »

Funny because the government keep saying we are in this mess because of this new variant but nah you still think its all down to the people not behaving themselves over Christmas

Your posting is basically "its all the peoples fault" nothing to do with new variant, the lack of proper test and trace, lack of quarantine measures etc, nah all the people.

Three cases of the new Brazil variant, peoples fault aswell i suppose. Do ye ever stop to think how are we one of the most locked down countries yet still not getting on top of this and think maybe its not ALL the fault of the people"

So ye seem obsessed with this idea of self flagellation above everything else, just curious as to why?

I haven’t said a bad word about the Irish the responses have included calling the Irish “Paddies” and harping to oppression, Catholic Church and colonialism and flagellation. None of that is coming from me.

I have said that we achieved the highest rate of covid in the world. The Kent variant spreads the same way the old variants spread - through humans being in contact with each other. I thought we all knew this. If the virus spreads it’s only because someone with the virus and someone without the virus, got close enough to successfully pass it from one to the other.

This isn’t an anti Irish argument (though some of the responses would be racist if they weren’t sarcastic), it’s just an observation that we were more successful at spreading the virus than anywhere else in the world over the Christmas period. We spread it through our behaviour. I’m amazed this is even in dispute.

We had toe highest rate of covid and among the strictest restrictions. If we had the lowest rate of covid then I don’t think we would have had such severe restrictions. I think that should be really obvious.

El_Duderino 09

Scotty # wrote: »

You are correct but I think the government must take some of the blame for things being so bad after Christmas. NPHET were pleading with them to shutdown in the days leading up to Christmas but they held off until the 26th.

I know, damned if they did and damned if they didn't but those few days cost us dearly.

Yeah, in hindsight, they should have listened to NPHET earlier and imposed restrictions sooner. But you won’t get far with a pro listening to NPHET argument in this thread.

the kelt

El_Duderino 09 wrote: »

I haven’t said a bad word about the Irish the responses have included calling t he British “Paddies” and harping to oppression, Catholic Church and colonialism and flagellation. None of that is coming from me.

I have said that we achieved the highest rate of covid in the world. The Kent variant spreads the same way the old variants spread - through humans being in contact with each other. I thought we all knew this. If the virus spreads it’s only because someone with the virus and someone without the virus, got close enough to successfully pass it from one to the other.

This isn’t an anti Irish argument (though some of the responses would be racist if they weren’t sarcastic), it’s just an observation that we were more successful at spreading the virus than anywhere else in the world over the Christmas period. We spread it through our behaviour. I’m amazed this is even in dispute.

We had toe highest rate of covid and among the strictest restrictions. If we had the lowest rate of covid then I don’t think we would have had such severe restrictions. I think that should be really obvious.

So 100% of the blame on the people alone?

You do realise that people got this virus whilst obeying every single restriction imposed on them?

No blame on our lack of quarantine, (passed legislation today!!) the farce of the track and trace etc etc

I recognise the need for restrictions, not all of them mind but the majority, what i do have a porblme with is the blame being put solely on the shoulders of the people alone when this isnt the case, i think its lousy, so lousy even the Government have stopped doing it

the kelt

the kelt wrote: »

Funny because the government keep saying we are in this mess because of this new variant but nah you still think its all down to the people not behaving themselves over Christmas

Your posting is basically "its all the peoples fault" nothing to do with new variant, the lack of proper test and trace, lack of quarantine measures etc, nah all the people.

How do you suspect the new variant got into the country and spread around it????

the kelt

bubblypop wrote: »

How do you suspect the new variant got into the country and spread around it????

Through a lack of proper quarantine measures and a lack of proper track and trace?

Do you think the new variants got spread around solely by people not obeying restrictions?

the kelt

the kelt wrote: »

Through a lack of proper quarantine measures and a lack of proper track and trace?

Do you think the new variants got spread around solely by people not obeying restrictions?

Yep. People coming into the country, when they were told to stay away, not self isolating for ten days, going to the pubs and visiting everyone they knew.
People not obeying restrictions

The Big Easy

Don't know if this has been posted but the State's own human rights watchdog has concern over the regulations. Was covered in the Irish Times but behind a paywall. Here's the gist from the governmental body themselves.

https://www.ihrec.ie/governments-blurred-lines-on-covid-emergency-powers-exposed-in-new-research/

Quote from the Times article: Problems in the law-making process “are exacerbated by the relationship between Nphet and the Government”. At times Nphet acted as “de facto decision-maker”, and there is a risk that public health advice “captures the whole decision-making process”. “This would be problematic both because important decisions should be made by democratically accountable actors and because Nphet has no particular expertise in human rights and equality.”

El_Duderino 09

the kelt wrote: »

So 100% of the blame on the people alone?

You do realise that people got this virus whilst obeying every single restriction imposed on them?

No blame on our lack of quarantine, (passed legislation today!!) the farce of the track and trace etc etc

I recognise the need for restrictions, not all of them mind but the majority, what i do have a porblme with is the blame being put solely on the shoulders of the people alone when this isnt the case, i think its lousy, so lousy even the Government have stopped doing it

Ah come on. If I were to make a list of the additional things under "so what you're saying is..." it would be much longer than my argument and much more sensational.

I havent said it was 100% blame on the people alone. I haven't been derogatory towards the Irish (though lots of replies have been).

I have no problem with saying that the government should have been stricter over Christmas. I also have no problem saying that NPHET was correct in saying that they should have imposed harsher restrictions earlier then they did. Do you agree that they should have had more restrictions earlier then they did?

I suppose that some people got the virus while maintaining distance (the distance was never going to be 100% effective, as far as I've been told). So I don't know why you're telling me that. The fact that we achieved the highest transmission rate in the World shows that we were not being particularly cautious. The virus spreads the same way in all countries. If the virus spread more successfully in Ireland it means that the behaviour of people in Ireland was more conducive to spreading it. IT's not an anti Irish argument, it's just observing what happened.

Silentcorner

The old, we should have stayed in lockdown level 5 to save us from lock down level 5 has to be the most ridiculous argument you will ever likely hear.

We were getting a winter surge, just like all the other countries in this part of the world...

the kelt

bubblypop wrote: »

Yep. People coming into the country, when they were told to stay away, not self isolating for ten days, going to the pubs and visiting everyone they knew.
People not obeying restrictions

So spread around solely by people not obeying restrictions?

El_Duderino 09

Silentcorner wrote: »

The old, we should have stayed in lockdown level 5 to save us from lock down level 5 has to be the most ridiculous argument you will ever likely hear.

We were getting a winter surge, just like all the other countries in this part of the world...

Are you getting that from my argument?

the kelt

El_Duderino 09 wrote: »

Ah come on. If I were to make a list of the additional things under "so what you're saying is..." it would be much longer than my argument and much more sensational.

I havent said it was 100% blame on the people alone. I haven't been derogatory towards the Irish (though lots of replies have been).

I have no problem with saying that the government should have been stricter over Christmas. I also have no problem saying that NPHET was correct in saying that they should have imposed harsher restrictions earlier then they did. Do you agree that they should have had more restrictions earlier then they did?

I suppose that some people got the virus while maintaining distance (the distance was never going to be 100% effective, as far as I've been told). So I don't know why you're telling me that. The fact that we achieved the highest transmission rate in the World shows that we were not being particularly cautious. The virus spreads the same way in all countries. If the virus spread more successfully in Ireland it means that the behaviour of people in Ireland was more conducive to spreading it. IT's not an anti Irish argument, it's just observing what happened.

Yep i agree,

I think the vast majority of people just done what they were allowed to do over Christmas, it just happened to be the wrong thing at the wrong time, not bad beahviour, sure not everyone did but thats life.

We are no worse here than any other country in how we behave etc, just my own humble opinion, have yet to see mass protests and testing centres being burned down like in Holland for example.

We need to give each other a break imho and stop putting ourselves down.

Multiple reasons we are where we are unfortunately, your posting lended itself to putting the blame solely on the people and aoplogies if thast not the case!

Legalfarmer89

HalfAndHalf wrote: »

Not this year is my realistic view. Positive view is maybe by Xmas this year.

Vaccine rollout will be slower than they say and then we’ll have supply issues.

The people who haven’t followed the rules so far will go mad in the summer months causing lockdown 4 with the HSE saying we’re too close now to go back to square one.

Just my view of course.

Unfortunately I think this will be the case.

The vaccine rollout will have issues. I can see a 4th Lockdown unless there is a major public reaction. On the other hand the 4th Lockdown may not be too severe, with major gatherings, spectators at sports, indoor dining and pubs not being allowed but all other activity will be allowed, at a reduced, socially distant level.

I couldn’t say what the impact to the economy will be.

titan18

bubblypop wrote: »

Yep. People coming into the country, when they were told to stay away, not self isolating for ten days, going to the pubs and visiting everyone they knew.
People not obeying restrictions

To me, there are some restrictions needed (for example, quarantining coming from covid hot spots should be 100% in or closing hospitality earlier/not even reopening them back in December), but then there are others that are not, they're just there cos it's a blanket approach. The 5k restriction (I only get this if you've one bad area and other good areas), closing hairdressers, closing outdoor sports that are very individual only (likes of golf here) etc.

There's no reason we can't keep the virus suppressed by allowing certain things to reopen and allowing society to somewhat function, but then focusing enforcement on areas where the spread can be highly damaging.

Atm, we've a blanket ban on pretty much everything, and a very spread garda force trying to enforce it (which they can't if enough people go fcuk it). We'd be better off opening up what is reasonably safe and then strongly enforcing restrictions on what isn't safe.

I'd like to think of it like the 80/20 rule. 80% of the infections happen in 20% of the settings, but we've decided to lock down 90% of the settings instead of targeting that 20%. It's necessary to do a blanket approach with the case numbers in late December and January, but not needed now imo.

Samsonsmasher

titan18 wrote: »

To me, there are some restrictions needed (for example, quarantining coming from covid hot spots should be 100% in or closing hospitality earlier/not even reopening them back in December), but then there are others that are not, they're just there cos it's a blanket approach. The 5k restriction (I only get this if you've one bad area and other good areas), closing hairdressers, closing outdoor sports that are very individual only (likes of golf here) etc.

There's no reason we can't keep the virus suppressed by allowing certain things to reopen and allowing society to somewhat function, but then focusing enforcement on areas where the spread can be highly damaging.

Atm, we've a blanket ban on pretty much everything, and a very spread garda force trying to enforce it (which they can't if enough people go fcuk it). We'd be better off opening up what is reasonably safe and then strongly enforcing restrictions on what isn't safe.

I'd like to think of it like the 80/20 rule. 80% of the infections happen in 20% of the settings, but we've decided to lock down 90% of the settings instead of targeting that 20%. It's necessary to do a blanket approach with the case numbers in late December and January, but not needed now imo.

Our tourist industry is vital to our economy. We need to open up NOW.

All the restrictions have to go.

This pantomine has caused enough damage and has to end.

the kelt

the kelt wrote: »

So spread around solely by people not obeying restrictions?

I'm sure it was also spread by people who were engaged in necessary activities, like work, for example.

titan18

titan18 wrote: »

To me, there are some restrictions needed (for example, quarantining coming from covid hot spots should be 100% in or closing hospitality earlier/not even reopening them back in December), but then there are others that are not, they're just there cos it's a blanket approach. The 5k restriction (I only get this if you've one bad area and other good areas), closing hairdressers, closing outdoor sports that are very individual only (likes of golf here) etc.

There's no reason we can't keep the virus suppressed by allowing certain things to reopen and allowing society to somewhat function, but then focusing enforcement on areas where the spread can be highly damaging.

Atm, we've a blanket ban on pretty much everything, and a very spread garda force trying to enforce it (which they can't if enough people go fcuk it). We'd be better off opening up what is reasonably safe and then strongly enforcing restrictions on what isn't safe.

I'd like to think of it like the 80/20 rule. 80% of the infections happen in 20% of the settings, but we've decided to lock down 90% of the settings instead of targeting that 20%. It's necessary to do a blanket approach with the case numbers in late December and January, but not needed now imo.

Yep, I agree.

bucketybuck

titan18 wrote: »

I'd like to think of it like the 80/20 rule. 80% of the infections happen in 20% of the settings, but we've decided to lock down 90% of the settings instead of targeting that 20%. It's necessary to do a blanket approach with the case numbers in late December and January, but not needed now imo.

As I said before, there is zero nuance in the governments response, and at this stage they have stopped even pretending to find nuance, there are no attempts made to dig deeper and deal with different areas on their own merits.

Its just all lockdown all the time. They are the proverbial rabbit in the headlamps at this stage, don't know what to do so just do nothing and hope it all sorts itself out. Pathetic.

PTH2009

Has work been done on improving he health services which was the meaning of lockdowns according to the WHO ?

FlubberJones

El_Duderino 09 wrote: »

There is a level of hysteria at the moment. Some bad news has broken ( the restrictions will go on longer than a lot of people had hoped) and people are being very irrational in response to that news.

People are not being irrational, they are ****ed off and at the end of their tether, there is a difference

titan18

Samsonsmasher wrote: »

Our tourist industry is vital to our economy. We need to open up NOW.

All the restrictions have to go.

This pantomine has caused enough damage and has to end.

I dont agree with that. I think itd be very dangerous to open hospitality atm. I'd 100% reopen hairdressers, construction, click and collect, some outdoor sports and relax the 5k limit in the next 2-3 weeks though. And for April, look at relaxing the movement limits and reopening non essential retail fully if case numbers haven't exploded by then. We'll likely have all over 70s with at least one dose done by then, and all medical people should be done, and we could hopefully start looking at outdoor hospitality around the may weekend or just after if things went very well.

the kelt

titan18 wrote: »

To me, there are some restrictions needed (for example, quarantining coming from covid hot spots should be 100% in or closing hospitality earlier/not even reopening them back in December), but then there are others that are not, they're just there cos it's a blanket approach. The 5k restriction (I only get this if you've one bad area and other good areas), closing hairdressers, closing outdoor sports that are very individual only (likes of golf here) etc.

There's no reason we can't keep the virus suppressed by allowing certain things to reopen and allowing society to somewhat function, but then focusing enforcement on areas where the spread can be highly damaging.

Atm, we've a blanket ban on pretty much everything, and a very spread garda force trying to enforce it (which they can't if enough people go fcuk it). We'd be better off opening up what is reasonably safe and then strongly enforcing restrictions on what isn't safe.

I'd like to think of it like the 80/20 rule. 80% of the infections happen in 20% of the settings, but we've decided to lock down 90% of the settings instead of targeting that 20%. It's necessary to do a blanket approach with the case numbers in late December and January, but not needed now imo.

Yep I agree.

At the moment it seems to be an all or nothing approach with no nuance or thought.

We can’t open up everything, however neither do we need everything locked down either.

Ginger n Lemon

https://www.thejournal.ie/cso-survey-5365180-Feb2021/

Life satisfaction levels are at the lowest levels ever due to Covid-19 pandemic, CSO survey says

"I for one welcome my FFG overlords. Thank you for letting me travel within an arbitrary distance of my home, I am forever grateful for my business being shut down, and the deterioration of my mental and physical health in return for €350/week."


I thought it was a pretty sarcastic comment :pac:
But sad at the same time.

This is not sustainable is it?

gozunda

Samsonsmasher wrote: »

Our tourist industry is vital to our economy. We need to open up NOW.All the restrictions have to go.This pantomine has caused enough damage and has to end.

Yeah so you keep repeating. Its starting to sound like a party political manifesto at this point tbf.

No other EU country or the UK are opening up 'NOW'

No other EU country are getting rid of their restrictions in one go.

Tourism is on hold across the world

Why? Because just in case you haven't noticed there is an ongoing global pandemic

Look we get it you dont agree with restrictions - and now apparently you don't agree with waiting for vaccinations either.

Tbh the only pantomime is the screaming which had the exact same refrain prior to Christmas and now again.

W123-80's

I'm beginning to think that if there actually is a significant cohort of the population close to standing up and shouting stop, by the time that happens we will be in a much better place anyway.

There is no doubt we are beginning to see isolated examples of businesses sticking their head above the parapet and trying to have their voices heard. But for this to effect change its going to require extensive lobbying and the support of TD's etc.
By the time that all happens we will be another 6, 7 or 8 weeks down the road and assuming the vaccination programme is running well and the vaccines prove effective we are gonna be heading for a very good place anyway.
Depending on numbers we may have even seen some easing of restrictions by early April.

In the context of a global vaccination roll out I think the focus needs to remain on suppressing case numbers.

Previous lockdowns, previous flattening the curve efforts and previous easing of restrictions were not carried out under the protection of a global vaccination roll out.
This scenario is very very different which is why it is very legitimate to call for 'one final push'.
We have a genuine chance of experiencing some sort of normality by late summer. The entire planet, not just Ireland.

We are nearly there.

landofthetree

gozunda wrote: »

Yeah so you keep repeating. Its starting to sound like a party political manifesto at this point tbf.

No other EU country or the UK are opening up 'NOW'

No other EU country are getting rid of their restrictions in one go.

Tourism is on hold across the world

Why? Because just in case you haven't noticed there is an ongoing global pandemic

Look we get it you dont agree with restrictions - and now apparently you don't agree with waiting for vaccinations either.

Tbh the only pantomime is the screaming which had the exact same refrain prior to Christmas and now again.

The UK has given the public dates on when stuff is reopening and have an excellent vaccination plan in place.

We need the same.


Business owners need to know what sort of timeline is ahead.

Ginger n Lemon

landofthetree wrote: »

The UK has given the public dates on when stuff is reopening and have an excellent vaccination plan in place.

We need the same.


Business owners need to know what sort of timeline is ahead.

I think if we did a survey / research on which is the worst country in EU to own a hospitality business in - Ireland may very well be top of the list.

I cant stress enough how horribly govt have dealt with businesses and SMEs. Thousands have already went bankrupt. We have a woman in Balbriggan re opening as she literally can not afford not to.

Business in Tralee re opening on 1st of March, or trying to.

Strange times ahead.

El_Duderino 09

the kelt wrote: »

Yep i agree,

I think the vast majority of people just done what they were allowed to do over Christmas, it just happened to be the wrong thing at the wrong time, not bad beahviour, sure not everyone did but thats life.

We are no worse here than any other country in how we behave etc, just my own humble opinion, have yet to see mass protests and testing centres being burned down like in Holland for example.

We need to give each other a break imho and stop putting ourselves down.

Multiple reasons we are where we are unfortunately, your posting lended itself to putting the blame solely on the people and aoplogies if thast not the case!

We just did what we were allowed to do. Isn't that precisely my point? We didn't decide to keep our distance because the rules didn't stop us doing things. It's funny because the person who I started this conversation with was opposed to the strict restrictions, and here we are agreeing that we needed restrictions earlier because people will go to the limit of what's permitted.

I think Irish people aren't generally big sticklers for the rules. Insofar as national stereotypes can be instructive, I think it's fair to say that generally there are some countries that tend to stick to rules with light touch enforcement and others that tend to stick to rules when they are more strictly enforced. It's not a particularly good or bad thing. I think our cheekiness and playfulness is part of our charm as a nationality. In the Christmas period saw a great rise in cases because more people pushed the boat out a bit and more transmissions occurred as a result.

El_Duderino 09

FlubberJones wrote: »

People are not being irrational, they are ****ed off and at the end of their tether, there is a difference

Ah, whatever way way you want to phrase it, the result is the same. We had one of the most prolific posters in this thread, yesterday say they don't believe things will ever be fine again. That's very interesting to see that someone is thinking like that, but it's not rational.

Things are improving every day. the vaccine rollout is making ground, the transmission numbers are slowly coming down. And in the next few weeks we'll start relaxing restrictions hopefully never to be reimpose again. And still they weren't sure if things would ever be fine again. That's just irrational.

Ginger n Lemon

Live now. Pretty interesting listen, chatting UK lockdown pros and cons.