When will it all end?

Hector Savage

Coybig_ wrote: »

Right but the vaccine is being given to the vulnerable as we speak.

Why would we need to be in lockdown after those people receive the vaccine? This demographic covers 98 percent of our deaths.
This is predicted to be done by Easter. Do you suspect that there will be a delay of a year in the rollout to these people?

Again very sensible post and this would be the logical sensible thing to do.
But when has any of the reaction to this been based on sense ?

Fighting Tao

Coybig_ wrote: »

Yeah the virus is being transmitted because people consider the elderly beyond use. Some of the comments on here would make you worry.

Nothing to do with seasonality, borders, government and hse having ferociously inadequate testing procedures in hospitals and nursing homes. No it's definitely people considering the elderly beyond use and facebook. LOL.

Yes some of the comments do make me worry about my elderly relatives. Look across the many threads on the subject. There are people saying what it only kills elderly and those with pre-existing conditions, and so it’s grand.

The fact is that the virus is here. People are the reason it is transmitting.

Hector Savage

Fighting Tao wrote: »

There are a lot of stupid people out there, and a lot that are very selfish too. A significant number also don’t seem to care if elderly people die because they consider them beyond use. That is why the virus is being transmitted.

So whats the acceptable number ?
There obviously is one cos in normal flu season lots of old people die but we continue to have concerts, pubs travel etc ... where is the cut off where it becomes unacceptable ?

Fighting Tao

Dempo1 wrote: »

A little harsh but your overall point taken. Selfishness certainly hasn't helped but more to the point the management of the this crisis hasn't either. Government warned at the start of December and ignored the advice. But on a wider scale and World wide, its never been as bad, 4300 deaths in the US yesterday, UK despite belated restrictions in serious trouble, Spain, Netherlands and many other European countries reporting increased numbers and deaths.

My primary point was the fact things have got much, much worse, despite more knowledge, Better medical understanding and treatments and vaccine Roll out, all of these I find perplexing.

Not help here is the HSE"s senior management who just seem to be limping from one crisis to another. Their COO admitted yesterday staff are not legally required to avail of testing, Today she's admitted staff call back to duty in breach of guidelines, the Chief Spoofer, rambling at the weekend about why IT systems not working, despite warnings in early 2019 and today he's claiming the numbers in hospital, incomprehensible, it's just extraordinary almost a year into this the HSE SENIOR management seems to have learned nothing.

I won't get started on the new Secretary General of the department of Health's €292k per annum, suffice to say it's outrageous.

The virus is transmitting due to people. People in apartments around me were having others over during lockdown. They still are. Things would be much better around the world, if people actually sticked to the guidelines. It is not a uniquely Irish thing, but people either think they are invincible, or don’t care about spreading the virus.

youandme13

youandme13 wrote: »

That's pure bs though. If that was the case then the likes of Brazil, Australia and hot climates wouldn't of gotten Covid19 which they did, so weather really makes no difference!!

So how did Sweden not get swamped with cases during the summer months? How is it that this pattern is repeated the world over, regardless of lockdowns? We were fully open in Summer for much longer than Christmas and the needle barely budged.

Sweden only the last few weeks have started lockdowns like the rest of us. Seems to be working great for them.

The data SCREAMS seasonality.

And in very hot places, people are often indoors during the hottest periods so they can buck this trend.

Fighting Tao

Hector Savage wrote: »

So whats the acceptable number ?
There obviously is one cos in normal flu season lots of old people die but we continue to have concerts, pubs travel etc ... where is the cut off where it becomes unacceptable ?

You obviously don’t understand the differences between covid and the flu.

Coybig_

Fighting Tao wrote: »

Yes some of the comments do make me worry about my elderly relatives. Look across the many threads on the subject. There are people saying what it only kills elderly and those with pre-existing conditions, and so it’s grand.

The fact is that the virus is here. People are the reason it is transmitting.

The people most affected by lockdown are the people the virus least affects. It's quite natural that there would be some pushback.

Unfortunately, a person on PUP, with their business closed, drowning in bills isnt likely to care too much about an old person. You can debate the morality of that but it's at least it's somewhat understandable.

niallo27

Irish Steve wrote: »

Forget Covid for a moment. If masks are not useful, why have medical professionals been wearing them (and gloves) in places like operating theatres for as long as any of us can remember?

Probably because they know that masks help prevent infection, in this specific case, the objective being to prevent the patient on the table being affected by anything that the wearer might be carrying.

virginmediapls wrote: »

Yes it is. The masks work. Why else would medical professionals wear them for decades.

Do medical professionals wear them outside surgery though, and if so then why not. Any doctor i have ever visited never wore a mask in consultation even in the height of flu season. I'm not anti-mask by the way.

Fighting Tao

Coybig_ wrote: »

The people most affected by lockdown are the people the virus least affects. It's quite natural that there would be some pushback.

Unfortunately, a person on PUP, with their business closed, drowning in bills isnt likely to care too much about an old person. You can debate the morality of that but it's at least it's somewhat understandable.

Your second paragraph is very cold, and I’d hate to think that many would think like that. We will hopefully all get old. Would you want the same to apply to you once you are of pension age?

niallo27

Fighting Tao wrote: »

Yes some of the comments do make me worry about my elderly relatives. Look across the many threads on the subject. There are people saying what it only kills elderly and those with pre-existing conditions, and so it’s grand.

The fact is that the virus is here. People are the reason it is transmitting.

Find me one post that said that.

Fighting Tao

niallo27 wrote: »

Do medical professionals wear them outside surgery though, and if so then why not. Any doctor i have ever visited never wore a mask in consultation even in the height of flu season. I'm not anti-mask by the way.

Did you check their vaccination records, or are you assuming they weren’t vaccinated against the flu?

Fighting Tao

Fighting Tao wrote: »

The virus is transmitting due to people. People in apartments around me were having others over during lockdown. They still are. Things would be much better around the world, if people actually sticked to the guidelines. It is not a uniquely Irish thing, but people either think they are invincible, or don’t care about spreading the virus.

I think this is why Sweden's approach worked, and was working. People knew what precautions to take, and did so, but they could live their lives still to a great extent.

Here the approach encourages meeting up indoors away from the eyes of the law for those who want to break regulations, and indoors in unregulated groups is where the virus spreads the easiest.

Fighting Tao

niallo27 wrote: »

Find me one post that said that.

Did I put “it’s grand” in quotes?

Dempo1

Fighting Tao wrote: »

The virus is transmitting due to people. People in apartments around me were having others over during lockdown. They still are. Things would be much better around the world, if people actually sticked to the guidelines. It is not a uniquely Irish thing, but people either think they are invincible, or don’t care about spreading the virus.

I certainly didn't suggest for a second it was uniquely Irish, its world wide, I'd like to understand however why things are far worse now as opposed to when no one knew anything about this pandemic. Apart from the initial lockdown, the summer and autumn months saw little if any restrictions and there wasn't anything like the surge now. Yes, 3 weeks of shopping frenzies didn't help but now and March last are incomparable given what we know now and didn't then.

Hector Savage

Fighting Tao wrote: »

You obviously don’t understand the differences between covid and the flu.

I understand covid is more deadly then flu , 2.3x the IFR from the last WHO docs I looked at ...

long covid etc ... not a nice virus to get , fact is though it seems death from some things is acceptable but not from covid.

Do you think the 60-120 deaths each year from flu in Ireland are ok ?

What about the transmission of it - I'm sure young people play a part in finally giving it to an old person that dies - should they be castigated as "granny killers" ?

Or at least should we have ~5% of the restrictions we have now - each year for the flu ?

It's all about trade offs - and btw I'm not one of these gob****es refusing to wear a mask on transport - I have to here otherwise I get a fine, but I am happy to wear it anyway.


https://www.irishtimes.com/news/health/flu-season-on-track-to-be-worse-than-last-year-1.3754024

Dempo1

Dempo1 wrote: »

I certainly didn't suggest for a second it was uniquely Irish, its world wide, I'd like to understand however why things are far worse now as opposed to when no one knew anything about this pandemic. Apart from the initial lockdown, the summer and autumn months saw little if any restrictions and there wasn't anything like the surge now. Yes, 3 weeks of shopping frenzies didn't help but now and March last are incomparable given what we know now and didn't then.

Seasonality. The only way to stop this now would be to have everyone stay at home and never interact with anyone, which is clearly impossible for obvious reasons.

Short of that, open up schools, non essential retail and even restaurants and enforce the regulations, with big fines for non compliance for both restaurants and patrons. Pubs and nightclubs not practical. Any house parties etc, big fines. You could ban alcohol in restaurants.

Meeting up outside in small groups (6 or less) should be fine.

Quarantines and negative PCR test at airport hotels at travellers expense.

All the above would be as effective as what we are doing now IMO and the public would find it easier to comply.

Dempo1

Fighting Tao wrote: »

Your second paragraph is very cold, and I’d hate to think that many would think like that. We will hopefully all get old. Would you want the same to apply to you once you are of pension age?

Agreed, cold being an understatement

Coybig_

Dempo1 wrote: »

Agreed, cold being an understatement

?

Why would a person who is massively struggling to stay afloat as a result of lockdown, when the virus doesnt affect him, care about a random unspecified old person?!?

There are businesses closed that will never reopen. Suicides, mental health problems. There will be thousands of missed diagnosis. Poverty, abuse. All of this is facilitated by lockdown. Maybe dont be so quick to cast judgement on people for not having bleeding hearts for old people, you don't know what anybodies circumstances are. The effects of lockdowns are likely to last years.

What I'm saying is it is understandable for some people not to have the wellbeing of old people at the forefront of their thoughts, it doesnt make them cold ffs.

Dempo1

Coybig_ wrote: »

?

Why would a person who is massively struggling to stay afloat as a result of lockdown, when the virus doesnt affect him, care about a random unspecified old person?!?

There are businesses closed that will never reopen. Suicides, mental health problems. There will be thousands of missed diagnosis. Poverty, abuse. All of this is facilitated by lockdown. Maybe dont be so quick to cast judgement on people for not having bleeding hearts for old people, you don't know what anybodies circumstances are. The effects of lockdowns are likely to last years.

What I'm saying is it is understandable for some people not to have the wellbeing of old people at the forefront of their thoughts, it doesnt make them cold ffs.

Whilst I get what your saying, I respectively disagree, I know some of those people on PUP, some self employed, some PAYE and yes it's grim, but all have families, some elderly parents, some special needs children. Not one despite their respective challenges have stopped caring for those vulnerable around them, indeed it's the supports family and friends have offered keeps those severely affected by this crisis, that keeps them going.

It would be a very, very sad world if its come to what your suggesting. I'm no bleeding heart, live alone, no family, mid 50"s but can tell you, I'm one of those who has 1000 aquaintences and perhaps 10 real friends, all without fail have checked in on me during what has been a horrendous few months, I too have happily checked in with them.

SnuggyBear

Coybig_ wrote: »

?

Why would a person who is massively struggling to stay afloat as a result of lockdown, when the virus doesnt affect him, care about a random unspecified old person?!?

There are businesses closed that will never reopen. Suicides, mental health problems. There will be thousands of missed diagnosis. Poverty, abuse. All of this is facilitated by lockdown. Maybe dont be so quick to cast judgement on people for not having bleeding hearts for old people, you don't know what anybodies circumstances are. The effects of lockdowns are likely to last years.

What I'm saying is it is understandable for some people not to have the wellbeing of old people at the forefront of their thoughts, it doesnt make them cold ffs.

Agreed. Im out of work almost a year now and stuck in the house on my own. Ive done my bit. Once my parents are vaccinated im done.

bucketybuck

virginmediapls wrote: »

Yes it is. The masks work. Why else would medical professionals wear them for decades.

Work at what?

The only thing I am interested in is the net benefit masks bring with regards to stopping the spread of Covid 19. Have they reduced the spread by 1%, 5% 10%, whatever it may be, and does that net benefit outweigh the negatives.

I have never seen that quantified, all you get on here are posts like this:

Some people's inability to accept basic facts, does not mean that it isn't settled. It means that there are just some people who prefer to remain ignorant

No debate allowed, don't ask for data, they are effective because we say they are.

I wear masks because society wants me to but my personal suspicion is that they actually have a negligible effect on the spread of Covid 19 in the community and don't really justify their high profile part in the whole cluster****, that the time, cost and effort spent on masks would be far better served in other areas.

God forbid you ever question the masks though.

uli84

Never, it’s the new normal, didn’t you hear?

Quazzie

bucketybuck wrote: »

I wear masks because society wants me to but my personal suspicion is that they actually have a negligible effect on the spread of Covid 19 in the community and don't really justify their high profile part in the whole cluster****, that the time, cost and effort spent on masks would be far better served in other areas.

How can wearing a mask have a negative effect on the spread of Covid-19?

Paddygreen

uli84 wrote: »

Never, it’s the new normal, didn’t you hear?

Rolling lockdowns and travel restrictions forever. The science is settled, 199.9% consensus. This is the word of the experts, praise the Lord (Tony).

bucketybuck

Quazzie wrote: »

How can wearing a mask have a negative effect on the spread of Covid-19?

The word I used was "negligible", not negative.

Although there are certainly some plausible negatives to mask wearing as well.

CalamariFritti

Quazzie wrote: »

How can wearing a mask have a negative effect on the spread of Covid-19?

Its not likely but not implausible. Dirty masks that are never being changed. People at their faces the whole time adjusting the thing or taking it off then back on then back off. People getting a false sense of security from them and dropping their guard otherwise. Not likely but not impossible.

I'll leave it at that since there is a whole thread for it.

Bracken81

Alf Veedersane wrote: »

They've said they expect to have 1.4 million doses delivered by end of March so can fully vaccinate 700k.

The expectation is that quantities being delivered will ramp up after that and more vaccines will come into the mix. Oxford/AZ will be next and that will add to Pfizer/BT and Moderna.

So assuming deliveries ramp up, there is scope to vaccinate at a greater rate.

But factor in HSE making a bit of a balls of it or just generally the set up being less than optimal.

Fingers crossed things get motoring quickly

Rodin

Coybig_ wrote: »

?

Why would a person who is massively struggling to stay afloat as a result of lockdown, when the virus doesnt affect him, care about a random unspecified old person?!?

There are businesses closed that will never reopen. Suicides, mental health problems. There will be thousands of missed diagnosis. Poverty, abuse. All of this is facilitated by lockdown. Maybe dont be so quick to cast judgement on people for not having bleeding hearts for old people, you don't know what anybodies circumstances are. The effects of lockdowns are likely to last years.

What I'm saying is it is understandable for some people not to have the wellbeing of old people at the forefront of their thoughts, it doesnt make them cold ffs.

But it does make them selfish.
The missed diagnoses are not being caused by lockdown but the very real situation of many beds/staff occupied with Covid. This would be even worse without lockdown.
It's not rocket science.

kwestfan08

Rodin wrote: »

But it does make them selfish.
The missed diagnoses are not being caused by lockdown but the very real situation of many beds/staff occupied with Covid. This would be even worse without lockdown.
It's not rocket science.

Selfish to want to provide for their families? Selfish to be under the real threat of losing a business they’ve built up over 5, 10, 25 years? That they’ve poured blood, sweat, late nights, early mornings into. I for one wouldn’t call it selfish to worry about that and not some random old person they’ve never met before.

ingo1984

Health minister was on newstalk this morning. Said by end of March they will have 700,000 people vaccinated. That includes all nursing home residents, all healthcare staff and all over 70s.

By the end of June a further 1.8 million will be vaccinated that will result in levels 1-13 of their vaccination agenda covered. So essentially 50% of the population covered by end of June.

I hope that end of march once the most vulnerable are vaccinated will see us move to level 3, never darken the door of level 5 again.

The after q2 vaccine rollout hopefully move into level 1/2 with focus on a proper, robust, track and trace system.

Hopefully the end is in sight in the coming months.