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When will it all end?
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bucketybuck wrote: »Several people I know aren't allowed to work anymore and are in danger of financial ruin.
But if it isn't Covid then who cares, right?
I remember in the autumn last year I, wrongly, turned on RTE. and 1 of the adverts in between the news was the red cross one. This woman was wearing a mask and handing masks out to these extremely skinny people and children in Africa.
It had sad music. as always.
However the appeal was not for food, or more masks, it was for money to build up and buy vaccines against covid. That was said while extremely skinny and clearly hungry African children were being shown with the sad music.
Now thats when I realized theres no way people are that stupid. There must be something sinister going on behind the scenes as theres no way 10 million + die of starvation in Africa alone year on year and red cross comes out and says please give us money for covid vaccines for Africa's population, when covid itself has struggled to take 2.5m in 12 months worldwide, and you gotta remember a lot of those deaths were with covid.. Dont think 1 can debate cause of death of starving people.0 -
Yikes, the narrative has gone sideways in the last few pages. But with reference to the thread topic, I think it’s indicative of the reality they we don’t know when it will end.
At the start of the week, when Leo gave the IT interview, it was generally ridiculed in this thread. The idea that this thing would probably go on with reduced restrictions during the warm weather and increased restrictions in cold weather.
Lots of people dismissed the idea that it would go on longer than another few months, let alone going into next year. They had dismissed any opinions that they didn’t want to hear up to now, but this week those opinions finally broke through as it was the tone outside of Ireland too and I think it’s sinking in. We don’t know how long it will take to end. And that’s why the discussion about when it will end, has gone sideways into stuff like the value of older people vs younger people.
At the moment we’re just in “wait and see” mode, and that’s the most sensible thing to do at the moment.0 -
El_Duderino 09 wrote: »Yikes, the narrative has gone sideways in the last few pages. But with reference to the thread topic, I think it’s indicative of the reality they we don’t know when it will end.
At the start of the week, when Leo gave the IT interview, it was generally ridiculed in this thread. The idea that this thing would probably go on with reduced restrictions during the warm weather and increased restrictions in cold weather.
Lots of people dismissed the idea that it would go on longer than another few months, let alone going into next year. They had dismissed any opinions that they didn’t want to hear up to now, but this week those opinions finally broke through as it was the tone outside of Ireland too and I think it’s sinking in. We don’t know how long it will take to end. And that’s why the discussion about when it will end, has gone sideways into stuff like the value of older people vs younger people.
At the moment we’re just in “wait and see” mode, and that’s the most sensible thing to do at the moment.
One wouldve thought that with effective vaccines being rolled out daily for 3rd month in a row now we would be somewhere further and more concrete than that.
But I suppose we are the same people that believed lockdowns will be here only for few weeks to flatten the curve :rolleyes:0 -
Ginger n Lemon wrote: »One wouldve thought that with effective vaccines being rolled out daily for 3rd month in a row now we would be somewhere further and more concrete than that.
But I suppose we are the same people that believed lockdowns will be here only for few weeks to flatten the curve :rolleyes:
The vaccines are being rolled out for 3 months in a row (an incredibly imprecise way to describe something which is 8 weeks old). And there is great uncertainty around it at the moment. The rate of production from the approved vaccines, and the as-yet unapproved vaccines coming online in the next few months.
How long will it take? What effect will the vaccinations have by the time the weather cools towards the end of the year? What impact will new variations have on the vaccine efficacy? We don’t know the answers to those questions at the moment. So waiting to see is the most sensible thing to do at the moment. And the narrative has shifted aways from the unrealistic expectations of it ending in the next few months.0 -
El_Duderino 09 wrote: »Yikes, the narrative has gone sideways in the last few pages. But with reference to the thread topic, I think it’s indicative of the reality they we don’t know when it will end.
At the start of the week, when Leo gave the IT interview, it was generally ridiculed in this thread. The idea that this thing would probably go on with reduced restrictions during the warm weather and increased restrictions in cold weather.
Lots of people dismissed the idea that it would go on longer than another few months, let alone going into next year. They had dismissed any opinions that they didn’t want to hear up to now, but this week those opinions finally broke through as it was the tone outside of Ireland too and I think it’s sinking in. We don’t know how long it will take to end. And that’s why the discussion about when it will end, has gone sideways into stuff like the value of older people vs younger people.
At the moment we’re just in “wait and see” mode, and that’s the most sensible thing to do at the moment.
Wait and see is fine if you are sitting at home in a safe job but for anyone banned from working and facing financial ruin and accruing debt it isn't.
An defined exit strategy (you can have conditions) gives people information to make informed decisions.
Two rough examples.
Simple example if the government said we will lift all resrictions once the over 65's have been vaccinated and this we expect to be done by the end of May. Someone can then make a business decision to perhaps hang onto their restaurant etc and get open in June. This might just be feasible for some.
If the government says we won't lift restrictions until all over 18's have been vaccinated and we won't have this done until December the same business person might realise they can't hold on until then, close the business and perhaps get a job and cut their losses.
A defined exit plan can have caveats.
A plan gives hope and a semblance of people understanding that we have to shift to living with Covid which is the only feasible solution.0 -
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El_Duderino 09 wrote: »The vaccines are being rolled out for 3 months in a row (an incredibly imprecise way to describe something which is 8 weeks old). And there is great uncertainty around it at the moment. The rate of production from the approved vaccines, and the as-yet unapproved vaccines coming online in the next few months.
How long will it take? What effect will the vaccinations have by the time the weather cools towards the end of the year? What impact will new variations have on the vaccine efficacy? We don’t know the answers to those questions at the moment. So waiting to see is the most sensible thing to do at the moment. And the narrative has shifted aways from the unrealistic expectations of it ending in the next few months.
Just on that, its sensible to have 20% + unemployment?
Its sensible to increase national debt 10 - 20% per year?
Its sensible to shut down travel, hospitality, concerts even though the deadly disease targets those who are in care homes? Care homes = person needs assistance to live. These people wont be going to pubs, concerts or travel abroad, they can barely move as sad as it sounds.
Its sensible to force thousands of SMEs out of business permanently?
Reality is theres a complete lack of urgency of lifting lockdown. But its not lack of urgency, its lack of leadership and courage to lift the restrictions. If tomorrow Leo and M Martin re open barbers, and cases go up 10% week on week there after, Irish times and Independent will be interviewing Tony & NPHET asking them how could politicians have been so reckless and then ofcourse finding some "international evidence" from Thailand of barbers being covid hot spots.
We live in a world full of idiots and cowards. And issue is too many of the latter have climbed to power. Unfortunately, when a year or 2 down the road it will become extremely evident that increase in cancer deaths, suicides and mental health issues will far outweigh any virus with 99.7% recovery rate, we cant really blame politicians as we are the ones who elected them. We can however blame ourselves for not doing anything AFTER they got elected.0 -
ujjjjjjjjj wrote: »Wait and see is fine if you are sitting at home in a safe job but for anyone banned from working and facing financial ruin and accruing debt it isn't.
An defined exit strategy (you can have conditions) gives people information to make informed decisions.
Two rough examples.
Simple example if the government said we will lift all resrictions once the over 65's have been vaccinated and this we expect to be done by the end of May. Someone can then make a business decision to perhaps hang onto their restaurant etc and get open in June. This might just be feasible for some.
If the government says we won't lift restrictions until all over 18's have been vaccinated and we won't have this done until December the same business person might realise they can't hold on until then, close the business and perhaps get a job and cut their losses.
A defined exit plan can have caveats.
A plan gives hope and a semblance of people understanding that we have to shift to living with Covid which is the only feasible solution.
Yeah but you saw what happened when then tried using caveats. People ignore the caveats and only hear what they want to hear. This week, a poster posted a statement by Leo from a few months ago which he said the DEPENDING on how thing go we MIGHT see full stadiums and PERHAPS even festivals this year. And they seem to have ignored the caveats completely when they posted it.
Government should base policy on data. At the moment they don’t have solid data. People don’t generally do well with caveats or ranges like best-worst case scenarios. The government is also waiting to see how things go so they can gather some good data before making solid plans. It’s the most sensible thing to do at the moment even though it’s frustrating.0 -
Ginger n Lemon wrote: »Just on that, its sensible to have 20% + unemployment?
Its sensible to increase national debt 10 - 20% per year?
Its sensible to shut down travel, hospitality, concerts even though the deadly disease targets those who are in care homes? Care homes = person needs assistance to live. These people wont be going to pubs, concerts or travel abroad, they can barely move as sad as it sounds.
Its sensible to force thousands of SMEs out of business permanently?
Reality is theres a complete lack of urgency of lifting lockdown. But its not lack of urgency, its lack of leadership and courage to lift the restrictions. If tomorrow Leo and M Martin re open barbers, and cases go up 10% week on week there after, Irish times and Independent will be interviewing Tony & NPHET asking them how could politicians have been so reckless and then ofcourse finding some "international evidence" from Thailand of barbers being covid hot spots.
We live in a world full of idiots and cowards. And issue is too many of the latter have climbed to power. Unfortunately, when a year or 2 down the road it will become extremely evident that increase in cancer deaths, suicides and mental health issues will far outweigh any virus with 99.7% recovery rate, we cant really blame politicians as we are the ones who elected them. We can however blame ourselves for not doing anything AFTER they got elected.
Exactly!! It’s about taking a measured approach in developing a plan with calculated risks. We all know every time we get into a car we’re taking our lives in our hands, this is the same. It’s absolutely calculating the risk involved with the benefit achieved, a concept I think is lost on some people.
Cocoon the over 70s until vaccinated. The rest of us can decide what risk to expose ourselves to. We need to be able to show the government that we are all not idiots, although, it seems there are plenty of those in this country.
Leo isn’t doing himself any favours in his current position, he has to know the money is running out and something has to give. Even free money has to be paid back!
As for Mr Martin, the less said, the better. A dishcloth of a man.0 -
El_Duderino 09 wrote: »Yeah but you saw what happened when then tried using caveats. People ignore the caveats and only hear what they want to hear. This week, a poster posted a statement by Leo from a few months ago which he said the DEPENDING on how thing go we MIGHT see full stadiums and PERHAPS even festivals this year. And they seem to have ignored the caveats completely when they posted it.
Government should base policy on data. At the moment they don’t have solid data. People don’t generally do well with caveats or ranges like best-worst case scenarios. The government is also waiting to see how things go so they can gather some good data before making solid plans. It’s the most sensible thing to do at the moment even though it’s frustrating.
Most people are sensible enough to understand caveats. We can agree to disagree though. Personally I think the government has no comprehension as to what many small businesses and self employed people are going through and that is why we are where we are.
It is very poor government but not unique to Ireland.0 -
Ginger n Lemon wrote: »Whats bizarre about it? If you test negative before you go and before you come back, who are you killing? How are you contributing to covid deaths by travelling?
It's more that you are part of a community where there are some who are terrified, with good reason, of contracting Covid. While most people are mindful of this, there are those who think foreign travel is a right and couldn't give two flyings as to the impact this has on the mindset of most. It's selfish.0 -
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mcsean2163 wrote: »
I have close family as frontline healthcare worker and am acutely aware of how they have suffered. They have bravely worked in an unknown perilous environment especially at the start of lockdown when so little was known. They put their lives and the lives of their family in it jeopardy to do their jobs.
So why with that knowledge at hand, would you want to make their lives harder?0 -
ujjjjjjjjj wrote: »Most people are sensible enough to understand caveats. We can agree to disagree though. Personally I think the government has no comprehension as to what many small businesses and self employed people are going through and that is why we are where we are.
It is very poor government but not unique to Ireland.
People misremember to suit themselves and very few actually read government statements first hand. Most just remember what they wanted to remember.
Last week, after the Leo interview, lots of posters talked about how they had loved the goalposts and how the government had told them that we would gonna into normal when we had a vaccine. I kept asking those posters who had told them that and what exactly they had said. Almost none of them could remember who told them and the closest thing we got to the source was a statement with three caveats in one sentence - and they had ignored the caveats.
If you want the government to spaff-off an unrealistic policy today, full of things you want to hear, to shut you up today and then replace it in a few weeks with a new policy that you also want to hear just to shut you up then. That’s fine. But it’s not a sensible way to do things. It’s sensible to wait until they have more info on the crucial factors such as vaccine supply, efficacy, and new mutations and their effect on transmissions and hospitalisations.
One good thing is that lots of posters have stoped expecting to ones to go back to normal in the next few months. The reality of the situation is sinking in and it’s pretty important to be realistic about it.0 -
If you challenge it you're considered a nutter and dismissed. I'm genuinely baffled at what we're delighted to put up with
Reminds me of all the people years ago who were in favour of water charges, you know the type, the civil servants who love the state and all it's apparatus. They'd believe anything the politicians or RTE tell them. Not many arguing for water charges these days, they all disappeared into the wood work. Lockdown advocates will be likewise.0 -
Isn't it weird that for so long we looked in disgust at Northern Ireland's case and death numbers, smugly calling them reckless and not caring for their people.
Now they have vaccinated more than six times their people than us but no such comparisons are allowed."only first doses" "not fully vaccinated".
The media have created this weird narrative in Ireland where we must only draw comparisons when it shows us in a positive light.
Most people have fallen for it hook, line and sinker, and anyone who disagrees hates the elderly.
One poster a few pages back said "we are in wait and see mode, that's the right thing to do right now".
Unbelievable attitude.0 -
https://www.rte.ie/news/coronavirus/2021/0214/1197043-covid-ireland/It comes as some public health experts have expressed concern that the country runs the risk of undoing all of its vaccination progress, if the current travel situation is not addressed.
Infectious Disease Consultant Dr Cliona Ní Cheallaigh said this morning that Ireland cannot afford to have people travelling in and out of the country at the current rate.
Speaking on RTÉ's Brendan O'Connor programme, she warned that with the global prevalence of the virus and new variants, the progress made so far could unravel.
I am sure all our resident experts will disagree.0 -
El_Duderino 09 wrote: »People misremember to suit themselves and very few actually read government statements first hand. Most just remember what they wanted to remember.
Last week, after the Leo interview, lots of posters talked about how they had loved the goalposts and how the government had told them that we would gonna into normal when we had a vaccine. I kept asking those posters who had told them that and what exactly they had said. Almost none of them could remember who told them and the closest thing we got to the source was a statement with three caveats in one sentence - and they had ignored the caveats.
If you want the government to spaff-off an unrealistic policy today, full of things you want to hear, to shut you up today and then replace it in a few weeks with a new policy that you also want to hear just to shut you up then. That’s fine. But it’s not a sensible way to do things. It’s sensible to wait until they have more info on the crucial factors such as vaccine supply, efficacy, and new mutations and their effect on transmissions and hospitalisations.
One good thing is that lots of posters have stoped expecting to ones to go back to normal in the next few months. The reality of the situation is sinking in and it’s pretty important to be realistic about it.
I think you are being a little unfair ir to most people. We can agree to disagree but I think the current wait and see approach is at best spineless at worst negligent, fiddling while Rome burns so to speak.0 -
It's more that you are part of a community where there are some who are terrified, with good reason, of contracting Covid. While most people are mindful of this, there are those who think foreign travel is a right and couldn't give two flyings as to the impact this has on the mindset of most. It's selfish.
Are most people terrified of covid in my community? or some? A bit contradictory there.
In any case, if people are terrified of covid they can just stay at home. What has that got to do with my travels? Or you are suggesting I should adjust my way of life to suit people who are terrified of covid and who keep wondering around Aldis for hours on end every week?0 -
ujjjjjjjjj wrote: »I think you are being a little unfair ir to most people. We can agree to disagree but I think the current wait and see approach is at best spineless at worst negligent, fiddling while Rome burns so to speak.
Given the fact that they don’t have the information to make policy, what should they do?
Also, I’m not being unfair to most people. Most people don’t get their news from good sources, let alone government press releases. They get their news from each other, Chinese whispers style. That’s where the nuance gets lost and caveats go out the window. IF, MAYBE, PERHAPS get lost and people remember being told we would have full stadiums and festivals once we have a vaccine.0 -
https://www.rte.ie/news/coronavirus/2021/0214/1197043-covid-ireland/
I am sure all our resident experts will disagree.
Current level of travel? its non existent. If this public health expert on 6 digit salary and guaranteed pension wants to shut down our borders then she should just say so and be laughed at. Anything else are just ramblings.0 -
https://www.rte.ie/news/coronavirus/2021/0214/1197043-covid-ireland/
I am sure all our resident experts will disagree.
Right now I can understand why she is saying this and while I disagree with it her reasoning is sound based on the current lockdown narrative which while I disagree with it is clearly not changing for the moment.
However once we have the old and vulnerable vaccinated I have no issue at all with travel resuming. The new variant narrative is like making decisions on what might happen. We should all live in a bunker because there might be an asteroid strike.0 -
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ujjjjjjjjj wrote: »Right now I can understand why she is saying this and while I disagree with it her reasoning is sound based on the current lockdown narrative which while I disagree with it is clearly not changing for the moment.
However once we have the old and vulnerable vaccinated I have no issue at all with travel resuming. The new variant narrative is like making decisions on what might happen. We should all live in a bunker because there might be an asteroid strike.
Or we should close the schools because hospitals could be overwhelmed.
Lol thats funny and stupid
Wait oh shi*0 -
Legally I'm sure they'll find a way. I was more reflecting on the morality of it. The fact that I can be stopped by a employee of the state and fined if I am more then 5km away from my house. It's mind boggling when you think about it.
It won't be upheld in a court. Government know this. However the mere fact there is a fine in place will act as a deterent for the majority and ensure compliance by the majority. Its merely a smokescreen and will work.0 -
Does anybody here really believe that if all restrictions ended tomorrow and nothing was said about it ever again, that thousands of people would suddenly start dropping dead like we saw in Wuhan at the start? Because I really don't think so.0
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El_Duderino 09 wrote: »Given the fact that they don’t have the information to make policy, what should they do?
Also, I’m not being unfair to most people. Most people don’t get their news from good sources, let alone government press releases. They get their news from each other, Chinese whispers style. That’s where the nuance gets lost and caveats go out the window. IF, MAYBE, PERHAPS get lost and pepper remember being told we would have full stadiums and festivals once we have a vaccine.
Make a decision about when we lift restrictions, it isn't hard. CSO stats clearly show the at risk groups and you can add in a safety margin vaccinate above that and then get on with things. The data is clearly there and has been for months.
Draw a line in the sand and get on with it. It is called being a government.
And I do think you are being unfair to people, anyone in my social group consumes news and government info and then talks about it and understands caveats and terms and conditions.......0 -
ujjjjjjjjj wrote: »Right now I can understand why she is saying this and while I disagree with it her reasoning is sound based on the current lockdown narrative which while I disagree with it is clearly not changing for the moment.
However once we have the old and vulnerable vaccinated I have no issue at all with travel resuming. The new variant narrative is like making decisions on what might happen. We should all live in a bunker because there might be an asteroid strike.
We make decisions based on what might happen all the time. That's part and parcel of running a country. Why should this be any different, especially considering the stakes of being wrong?0 -
ujjjjjjjjj wrote: »Right now I can understand why she is saying this and while I disagree with it her reasoning is sound based on the current lockdown narrative which while I disagree with it is clearly not changing for the moment.
However once we have the old and vulnerable vaccinated I have no issue at all with travel resuming. The new variant narrative is like making decisions on what might happen. We should all live in a bunker because there might be an asteroid strike.
See, this is the nub of the issue. There is a large, let us just say it, the anti-science sentiment here, that is just sick of lockdown. They want to open up asap, or when we get some old people vaccinated, and then open up and let what happens, happen..... even though the CDC, WHO, ECDC among others, and pretty much the scientific community advises us, NOT to do it this way.
I get it, people are sick of lockdown and want a way out, that is somewhat logical from a human point of view, but that doesn't entitle people to just make up a new reality where just things will be grand once their own opinion of the matter, that is not backed up by any data gets implemented.
At the end of the day, the motivation here is built from selfishness, which is fine, but at least say it.
"I don't really care about other people getting sick, I want my old life back"
At least be honest about it.
Other people take a different view, that we will need to do this carefully.0 -
Ginger n Lemon wrote: »Current level of travel? its non existent. If this public health expert on 6 digit salary and guaranteed pension wants to shut down our borders then she should just say so and be laughed at. Anything else are just ramblings.
The poster has an obsession about travel. I suspect he has something against travel pre pandemic times but i doubt he’ll admit it on here.0 -
See, this is the nub of the issue. There is a large, let us just say it, the anti-science sentiment here, that is just sick of lockdown. They want to open up asap, or when we get some old people vaccinated, and then open up and let what happens, happen..... even though the CDC, WHO, ECDC among others, and pretty much the scientific community advises us, NOT to do it this way.
I get it, people are sick of lockdown and want a way out, that is somewhat logical from a human point of view, but that doesn't entitle people to just make up a new reality where just things will be grand once their own opinion of the matter, that is not backed up by any data gets implemented.
At the end of the day, the motivation here is built from selfishness, which is fine, but at least say it.
"I don't really care about other people getting sick, I want my old life back"
At least be honest about it.
Other people take a different view, that we will need to do this carefully.
Sweden.0 -
ujjjjjjjjj wrote: »Make a decision about when we lift restrictions, it isn't hard. CSO stats clearly show the at risk groups and you can add in a safety margin vaccinate above that and then get on with things. The data is clearly there and has been for months.
Draw a line in the sand and get on with it. It is called being a government.
And I do think you are being unfair to people, anyone in my social group consumes news and government info and then talks about it and understands caveats and terms and conditions.......
Ah yeah but I asked plenty of posters where they got the impression that things would go back to normal this summer, and they couldn’t actually remember. The evidence is here in front of you. You’re an active poster so I think you’ve seen it for yourself. You and your mates might be very clued in, but a few minutes on this thread should show you that isn’t typical. Tabloids are a profitable business... some people get their news from tabloids and Facebook and Twitter and from their mates. That’s serious and you can see the results in these threads.
On the point of making policy without the information: so they make a policy now before they have good information, what should they then do when the information comes in? Should they change the plan to accommodate the reality or should they stick to the plan no matter what new information they get?0 -
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tommybrees wrote: »Does anybody here really believe that if all restrictions ended tomorrow and nothing was said about it ever again, that thousands of people would suddenly start dropping dead like we saw in Wuhan at the start? Because I really don't think so.
Given that 3 weeks of semi-normality over Christmas caused our hospitals to breeze past capacity and a thousand people to die over January, I am 100% sure 1000's would die if we did what you are suggesting.0
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