Competence required to be executed in Indiana

...Ghost...

Article

Saw this on RTE news. So, if on death row, you need to be competent in order to be executed? WTF!

I don't agree with capital punishment, but that's not the argument here. The woman in this case killed an 8 month pregnant woman and cut the baby from her womb. Apparently the baby survived. I wouldn't expect anyone on death row has good mental health, so why is this case different? The murder itself sound really gruesome.

Birneybau

In no way defending Lisa Montgomery but she had one of the worst lives I've ever read, failed by the authorities every step of her life.

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2021/jan/05/lisa-montgomery-death-row-execution-history

Pythagorean

After reading the Guardian piece on Montgomery, I believe execution is an unwarranted punishment.

suicide_circus

If she's profoundly mentally ill and was unaware of the gravity of her actions at the time, she shouldn't even be in regular prison

seamus

Execution itself is barbaric enough, surely you see how executing someone who is incapable of understanding what's happening, is another step down again?

Eric Cartman

Birneybau wrote: »

In no way defending Lisa Montgomery but she had one of the worst lives I've ever read, failed by the authorities every step of her life.

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2021/jan/05/lisa-montgomery-death-row-execution-history

An absolutely harrowing story , but in no way excuses the absolute horror she committed against that woman and her baby.

If she did in any of her family or her dads friends id say she deserves a medal but this was a completely innocent woman who suffered.

mental health might explain heinous crimes, it doesn't excuse them though, and this idea that people should serve less of a sentence for mental health is abhorrent.

Lumen

Eric Cartman wrote: »

An absolutely harrowing story , but in no way excuses the absolute horror she committed against that woman and her baby.

If she did in any of her family or her dads friends id say she deserves a medal but this was a completely innocent woman who suffered.

mental health might explain heinous crimes, it doesn't excuse them though, and this idea that people should serve less of a sentence for mental health is abhorrent.

It's amazing to me that someone could read that story and go, "ah sure, it's bad and all, but go ahead and kill her anyway".

randd1

Lumen wrote: »

It's amazing to me that someone could read that story and go, "ah sure, it's bad and all, but go ahead and kill her anyway".

Given her life and her crimes, the absolute cynic might suggest that perhaps it might put and end to both her suffering and the risk she poses to others.

osarusan

...Ghost... wrote: »

Article

Saw this on RTE news. So, if on death row, you need to be competent in order to be executed? WTF!

More to the point is that you need to be considered competent to even stand trial in the first place.


I don't see where the WTF comes into it, the concept of being considered not responsible/guilty due to mental defect or insanity is pretty common knowledge I would have thought.

Whether it applies in this particular case is another question.

Eric Cartman

Lumen wrote: »

It's amazing to me that someone could read that story and go, "ah sure, it's bad and all, but go ahead and kill her anyway".

I don't think theres any reasoning in the world you could give me to justify somebody violently cutting a baby out of a heavily pregnant woman that wouldn't have me wishing death upon them.

Lumen

Eric Cartman wrote: »

I don't think theres any reasoning in the world you could give me to justify somebody violently cutting a baby out of a heavily pregnant woman that wouldn't have me wishing death upon them.

Maybe you should spend less time fantasising about death.

listermint

Eric Cartman wrote: »

I don't think theres any reasoning in the world you could give me to justify somebody violently cutting a baby out of a heavily pregnant woman that wouldn't have me wishing death upon them.

Have you considered you hold on to alot of anger and very little humanity or reasoning.


Although I've found this very prevalent in much of your contributions.


There's a case for prison for life meaning exactly that and permanently that.

What a tragic story.
Has she expressed any remorse? Capable? Is she still a risk?
Jasis. The poor woman.

Execution is an unnecessary punishment in this case, but depending on her mental condition, is there an argument that its more euthanasia to end her suffering.


If anyone should be executed its the public officers and doctor who failed her:

Then there was the doctor in Oklahoma who examined her as a child, learnt about the regular rapes – but did nothing about it. The child welfare office whom Montgomery’s mother, Judy, informed about the sexual abuse – but did nothing about it. And the family court judge who presided at the parents’ divorce who actually scolded Judy for failing to report the rape of her daughter to police – but then himself did absolutely nothing about it.

Wesekn.

listermint wrote: »

Have you considered you hold on to alot of anger and very little humanity or reasoning.


Although I've found this very prevalent in much of your contributions.


There's a case for prison for life meaning exactly that and permanently that.

Cheaper too than the death penalty LWP

Death penalty is an outdated practice to my mind, harks to the days of the mob and mob justice

hynesie08

It's a heartbreaking story, from every level, that poor woman's life was ****ed from an early age, she really never had a chance.

But what she did is so inhumane that I really struggle with any sort of sympathy.....

I would need to see a more detailed breakdown, does she have a history of violence, did the baby's father call for the death sentence among other things, but I'm really not seeing what the point of the death sentence is in this case. It's not a deterrent, it's not a punishment...... I don't know.

seamus

MikeOxsgreen wrote: »

Execution is an unnecessary punishment in this case, but depending on her mental condition, is there an argument that its more euthanasia to end her suffering.

I don't in principle have any issue with euthanasia as a thing, but it shouldn't be used just because it's convenient in this case to kill two birds with one stone.

Euthanising incompetent individuals is really grey ground, for obvious reasons.

I would much rather she is treated (in a maximum security facility) as much as possible to bring her to a point where she may be competent. And then to be assessed on an ongoing basis to determine whether she continues to be a grave public risk.
Before ultimately deciding if she should be conditionally released or retried.

Nermal

We cannot reliably tell who is insane and who is not.

It's not a term or concept that should have a place within the criminal justice system.

Our society only functions properly when we are held responsible for our actions, regardless of our mental state or upbringing.

Wesekn.

Nermal wrote: »

We cannot reliably tell who is insane and who is not.

It's not a term or concept that should have a place within the criminal justice system.

Our society only functions properly when we are held responsible for our actions, regardless of our mental state or upbringing.

That would be incorrect

Lumen

hynesie08 wrote: »

It's a heartbreaking story, from every level, that poor woman's life was ****ed from an early age, she really never had a chance.

But what she did is so inhumane that I really struggle with any sort of sympathy.....

I would need to see a more detailed breakdown, does she have a history of violence, did the baby's father call for the death sentence among other things, but I'm really not seeing what the point of the death sentence is in this case. It's not a deterrent, it's not a punishment...... I don't know.

The key is to hold two things in one's head at the same time:

- Very bad things were done to her
- She did very bad things to other people

...and not force oneself to minimize one in order to fully embrace the other.

And then consider the available options:

- Execute her
- Keep her in jail where she poses little risk to others
- ...rehabilitation/treatment?

...and decide which results in a less bad outcome.

I don't know enough about the case over and above that Guardian article, but I generally find it uplifting to read about cases of rehabilitation of serious offenders, including where that person dies in jail but is able to have some kind of positive effect on those around them. We don't have to celebrate those outcomes, just recognise that some goodness can come out of a life filled with horror.

But even if no treatment or rehabilitation is possible, it is still better to keep people in jail than kill them, because killing people is always bad.

Strumms

I believe life is a right. I also believe you abdicate or should abdicate your right to life if you conclusively remove somebody else’s ability to be alive.

If it can be proven beyond all conclusive and reasonable doubt that you are of sound mental capacity when committing the act, but you had an argument with the wife / husband, drove to the supermarket, you clipped another car while parking, an argument ensued.... you in the heat of the moment produced a knife, stabbed the other person....

Why should you be permitted to remain living ?

You get 25 years, do 20 ? It costs approximately 68,000 per year to incarcerate somebody.

It will cost the state up to 1.36 million, in total to incarcerate them. To incarcerate one person for 20 years.

By virtue of the person committing a heinous crime... 1.36 million for incarceration...

Kraftwerk

The death penalty shouldn't be an option.

But according to the guardian article the back story about the abuse and torture came from interviews with the woman herself. I see there was a report by the mother that she was raped and it was ignored.

Just out of curiosity. If she's described as seriously mentally ill and capable of incredibly disturbing actions due to her illness then can a history based mostly on her own statements be credible as evidence? Even backed up by the report, the details and scale of the abuse is her story.

Does going down the road of pleading insanity etc render the defendants own testimony less credible? Seems a bit of a contradiction in a legal sense that you're arguing your client is not competent due to mental illness and using their own testimony as evidence of that lack of competence.

Wesekn.

Strumms wrote: »

I believe life is a right. I also believe you abdicate or should abdicate your right to life if you conclusively remove somebody else’s ability to be alive.

If it can be proven beyond all conclusive and reasonable doubt that you are of sound mental capacity, but you had an argument with the wife / husband, drove to the supermarket, you clipped another car while parking, an argument ensued.... you in the heat of the moment produced a knife, stabbed the other person....

Why should you be permitted to remain living ?

You get 25 years, do 20 ? It costs approximately 68,000 per year to incarcerate somebody.

It will cost the state up to 1.36 million, in total to incarcerate them. To incarcerate one person for 20 years.

By virtue of the person committing a heinous crime... 1.36 million for incarceration...

LWP is cheaper than death penalty in the US anyhow

Birneybau

If she is put to death, it's a profoundly desperate end to a profoundly desperate life.

CtevenSrowder

Birneybau wrote: »

In no way defending Lisa Montgomery but she had one of the worst lives I've ever read, failed by the authorities every step of her life.

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2021/jan/05/lisa-montgomery-death-row-execution-history

This is the bleeding heart Guardian/left-wingism at it's worse. No matter her up bringing murdering a women and cutting her baby from her womb makes her the 'worst of the worst', not the most 'broken of broken', like is suggested in the article.

I'm sorry, but I can't help get the feeling that if it was a male who did this he'd have ben executed by now.

Eric Cartman

Lumen wrote: »

Maybe you should spend less time fantasising about death.

There are bad people in this world, be it by birth or through traumatic incidents.

murderers of innocent people, serial killers, paedophiles, violent rapists, those who lunge at police with weapons. There is no other fair way to atone than death.

I dont spend any time fantasising about death, I just think the world has gone far too soft on violent criminals.

Lumen

CtevenSrowder wrote: »

This is the bleeding heart Guardian/left-wingism at it's worse. No matter her up bringing murdering a women and cutting her baby from her womb makes her the 'worst of the worst', not the most 'broken of broken', like is suggested in the article.

I'm sorry, but I can't help get the feeling that if it was a male who did this he'd have ben executed by now.

So she should be executed because...sexism?

Blazer

Eric Cartman wrote: »

There are bad people in this world, be it by birth or through traumatic incidents.

murderers of innocent people, serial killers, paedophiles, violent rapists, those who lunge at police with weapons. There is no other fair way to atone than death.

I dont spend any time fantasising about death, I just think the world has gone far too soft on violent criminals.

There's a huge difference between a violent murdering criminal and someone like her.
A violent murdering criminal kills someone knowing full well what they are doing and still goes ahead and does it.
Someone who's been traumatized like she has been is probably fairly doubtful.
Generally I am for the death penalty..but not in this case.

CtevenSrowder

Lumen wrote: »

So she should be executed because...sexism?

Because that is the law there and sentence handed down. I'm personally opposed to the death penalty myself, and would like to see it overturned, but it hasn't been yet.

Birneybau

Eric Cartman wrote: »

There are bad people in this world, be it by birth or through traumatic incidents.

murderers of innocent people, serial killers, paedophiles, violent rapists, those who lunge at police with weapons. There is no other fair way to atone than death.

I dont spend any time fantasising about death, I just think the world has gone far too soft on violent criminals.

Christ almighty

Beasty

Thread title updated to reflect the story

emmalynn19

Eric Cartman wrote: »

I don't think theres any reasoning in the world you could give me to justify somebody violently cutting a baby out of a heavily pregnant woman that wouldn't have me wishing death upon them.

You really are an appalling human being