Competence required to be executed in Indiana

meathstevie

banie01 wrote: »

While you may think it's a deterrent, there is an overwhelming scientific consensus that it isn't.
https://www.law.ox.ac.uk/centres-institutes/centre-criminology/blog/2015/04/theres-no-evidence-death-penalty-acts-deterrent
That's an overview that will lead to further reading.

The most imprisoned nation per capita, is the US.
How is the death sentence working out for them?
The murder rate there per 100k is @5 with death penalty in many jurisdictions.
If the death penalty works?
Why is the comparable rate in Ireland 0.85 per 100k?
Or just 1.2 per 100k in the UK and Wales?
https://dataunodc.un.org/crime/intentional-homicide-victims


The deprivation of a convicts liberty is punishment.
The penal service can choose to ensure a path towards education and reform is available.
Or it can choose to dehumanise inmates, feed them, lock them, let them out an hour a day and otherwise throw away the key.

Dehumanisation is from the US example, clearly not working.
It's a broken penal system that operates on a huge degree of reoffending.
Don't hold it up as an example as anything other than what not to do.

Let’s play devil’s advocate, Ireland has a prison and youth detention system that’s focused on rehabilitation, education, etc etc.. . What do you think the reoffending rate is ? I’m quite sure it’s close to 100%.

Neither one really works if you look closer.

Personally I think you need a two tier system; education and rehabilitation for those who want it and show an interest with an incentivised detention regime and a rack’em and stack’em prison for those who couldn’t be arsed with rehabilitation and education and just collect convictions and charge sheets during their hopefully short spells of freedom.

In an Irish context the death penalty is a mute discussion as it’s not a legally possible sentence. The only ones who still do the death penalty for the smallest of perceived transgressions is the criminal fraternity.

ohnonotgmail

meathstevie wrote: »

Let’s play devil’s advocate, Ireland has a prison and youth detention system that’s focused on rehabilitation, education, etc etc.. . What do you think the reoffending rate is ? I’m quite sure it’s close to 100%.

Neither one really works if you look closer.

Personally I think you need a two tier system; education and rehabilitation for those who want it and show an interest with an incentivised detention regime and a rack’em and stack’em prison for those who couldn’t be arsed with rehabilitation and education and just collect convictions and charge sheets during their hopefully short spells of freedom.

In an Irish context the death penalty is a mute discussion as it’s not a legally possible sentence. The only ones who still do the death penalty for the smallest of perceived transgressions is the criminal fraternity.

I hate to bring facts into this but the recidivism rate for under 18s in this country is less than 50%. The rate drops as age increases.

mynamejeff

GreeBo wrote: »

By that logic the safest way is to just kill everyone, guaranteed to get all the bad guys that way...

How many innocents is to many?

Aw so we can learn from this post that you don't under stand the meaning of the word logic

o1s1n

mynamejeff wrote: »

the suffering of a tiny tiny few for the betterment of every one . ?


yeap sounds good to me

I'd rather not live in a country where the state can wrongly execute me, thanks.

AllForIt

o1s1n wrote: »

I'd rather not live in a country where the state can wrongly execute me, thanks.

I think there are cases where there is no doubt whatsoever. Even some perpetrators admit it.

So, I think this argument of 'wrongly being accused' is much overplayed.

o1s1n

AllForIt wrote: »

I think there are cases where there is no doubt whatsoever. Even some perpetrators admit it.

So, I think this argument of 'wrongly being accused' is much overplayed.

People are wrongly accused and executed. Doesn't matter if it's over or underplayed, it happens.

I do not want to live in a country where that's a possibility, even if a remote one.

Do you really want the Irish state to have the power to kill you?

mynamejeff

o1s1n wrote: »

People are wrongly accused and executed. Doesn't matter if it's over or underplayed, it happens.

I do not want to live in a country where that's a possibility, even if a remote one.

Do you really want the Irish state to have the power to kill you?

hate to break it to you but life and death calls are made every day in Ireland

people actively campaign for it

right to life vs abortion

death with dignity groups for terminally ill

at the moment even there isn't enough medical equipment to go around for covid patients so some one has to decide who gets what and as a result people are dying

reality is tough

ohnonotgmail

mynamejeff wrote: »

hate to break it to you but life and death calls are made every day in Ireland

people actively campaign for it

right to life vs abortion

death with dignity groups for terminally ill

at the moment even there isn't enough medical equipment to go around for covid patients so some one has to decide who gets what and as a result people are dying

reality is tough

Indeed it is. No need to make it deliberately tougher.

mynamejeff

ohnonotgmail wrote: »

Indeed it is. No need to make it deliberately tougher.

that's the point though

removing some people permanently from the world with a 100 percent guarantee that they wont have any more victims would make the world a better safer place

imo only of course

ohnonotgmail

mynamejeff wrote: »

that's the point though

removing some people permanently from the world with a 100 percent guarantee that they wont have any more victims would make the world a better safer place

imo only of course

that isn't what we were discussing. We were discussing the execution of innocent people. You seem to think that is a price worth paying for whatever benefits you think the death penalty brings.

GreeBo

mynamejeff wrote: »

Aw so we can learn from this post that you don't under stand the meaning of the word logic

The post I quoted implies that its more important to kill the bad guys than make sure you dont kill any good guys.
My post is the logical conclusion to that state.

GreeBo

mynamejeff wrote: »

that's the point though

removing some people permanently from the world with a 100 percent guarantee that they wont have any more victims would make the world a better safer place

imo only of course

Safe for everyone bar the innocent people you killed right?

mynamejeff

ohnonotgmail wrote: »

that isn't what we were discussing. We were discussing the execution of innocent people. You seem to think that is a price worth paying for whatever benefits you think the death penalty brings.

can you show me the percentage of people who were proved innocent after their death vs people who were proved guilty and killed ?



in a small country like Ireland I believe that capital punishment would have a much different effect than somewhere like the US.

ohnonotgmail

mynamejeff wrote: »

can you show me the percentage of people who were proved innocent after their death vs people who were proved guilty and killed ?



in a small country like Ireland I believe that capital punishment would have a much different effect than somewhere like the US.

any percentage greater than 0 is too much.

mynamejeff

Blaaz_ wrote: »

How?

Several were sentenced to death during the troubles,it didnt curtail paramilitary activity

how many were carried out ?

there were also some murderers who where released after the gfa who went on to commit horrific crimes.

those people were needless victims of people who had already carried out murders and by people who had abdicated their place in the human race.

Pearse McAuley for example

mynamejeff

ohnonotgmail wrote: »

any percentage greater than 0 is too much.

in your opinion

ohnonotgmail

mynamejeff wrote: »

in your opinion

this being a discussion forum that would be my opinion, yes. Some of us are not keen on innocent people being executed. I asked you this before and you didnt answer. If you were the innocent person who was scheduled to be executed would you think it an acceptable price to pay?

mynamejeff

ohnonotgmail wrote: »

this being a discussion forum that would be my opinion, yes. Some of us are not keen on innocent people being executed. I asked you this before and you didnt answer. If you were the innocent person who was scheduled to be executed would you think it an acceptable price to pay?

and my opinion being as valid as yours

no one is keen on executing innocent people you made that up

clearly that is the point I have made already

how would you feel if you or your family were the victim of some one who had received a short sentence of a killing some one and was released to kill again ?

ohnonotgmail

mynamejeff wrote: »

and my opinion being as valid as yours

no one is keen on executing innocent people you made that up

clearly that is the point I have made already

how would you feel if you or your family were the victim of some one who had received a short sentence of a killing some one and was released to kill again ?

I dont think I said keen but you seem to think it is an acceptable side effect of capital punishment. And I never suggested that somebody should receive a short sentence for killing somebody. that is unacceptable to me.

meathstevie

ohnonotgmail wrote: »

I hate to bring facts into this but the recidivism rate for under 18s in this country is less than 50%. The rate drops as age increases.

Less than 50% recidivism for individuals who go through the youth detention system ? Whoever compiled those statistics is a bare faced liar.

ohnonotgmail

meathstevie wrote: »

Less than 50% recidivism for individuals who go through the youth detention system ? Whoever compiled those statistics is a bare faced liar.

hmm, so we have two numbers. One is the result of research and one you have just pulled out of your arse. Which is more likely to be true?

mynamejeff

ohnonotgmail wrote: »

hmm, so we have two numbers. One is the result of research and one you have just pulled out of your arse. Which is more likely to be true?

throw up a link there for your number there so we can see your source rather than just being obnoxious towards another poster

are you taking your numbers from people who were actually in youth detention or people who got a jlo caution as they are vastly different

ohnonotgmail

mynamejeff wrote: »

throw up a link there for your number there so we can see your source rather than just being obnoxious towards another poster

are you taking your numbers from people who were actually in youth detention or people who got a jlo caution as they are vastly different

release from detention https://www.rte.ie/brainstorm/2019/0926/1078462-recidivism-in-ireland/

mynamejeff

ohnonotgmail wrote: »

release from detention https://www.rte.ie/brainstorm/2019/0926/1078462-recidivism-in-ireland/

there is very little information in that link but there is this

"The CSO figures also show that young people are more likely to reoffend, with three quarters of those aged 21 years or under re-offending."

75 % is a lot more that less than 50 .

and likely to relate to the courts system rather than jlo from the context here


facts eh ?

ohnonotgmail

mynamejeff wrote: »

there is very little information in that link but there is this

"The CSO figures also show that young people are more likely to reoffend, with three quarters of those aged 21 years or under re-offending."

75 % is a lot more that less than 50 .

and likely to relate to the courts system rather than jlo from the context here


facts eh ?

well at least I actually linked to facts rather than some "practically 100%" bull****.

meathstevie wrote: »

Let’s play devil’s advocate, Ireland has a prison and youth detention system that’s focused on rehabilitation, education, etc etc.. . What do you think the reoffending rate is ? I’m quite sure it’s close to 100%.

Neither one really works if you look closer.

from the article

Hamilton says there’s a fairly consistent finding, including in Northern Ireland, that people who go through community programmes, rather than going to prison, do better in terms of re-offending and that the answer to addressing our recidivism rate depends, at least partially, in investing in alternatives.

mynamejeff

ohnonotgmail wrote: »

well at least I actually linked to facts rather than some "practically 100%" bull****.



from the article

it was another poster who called you on you widely inaccurate statement.

you stated that statistics back up your statement then posted a link with contradictory stats

lol inaccurate facts are not still facts


you might as well have claimed the moon is made of cheese for all the proof you provided

on the other hand I never claimed to have stats to back up my opinion.

seamus

mynamejeff wrote: »

can you show me the percentage of people who were proved innocent after their death vs people who were proved guilty and killed ?

In Ireland, it's at least 3%

Is that acceptable?

ohnonotgmail

meathstevie wrote: »

Let’s play devil’s advocate, Ireland has a prison and youth detention system that’s focused on rehabilitation, education, etc etc.. . What do you think the reoffending rate is ? I’m quite sure it’s close to 100%.

Neither one really works if you look closer.

Personally I think you need a two tier system; education and rehabilitation for those who want it and show an interest with an incentivised detention regime and a rack’em and stack’em prison for those who couldn’t be arsed with rehabilitation and education and just collect convictions and charge sheets during their hopefully short spells of freedom.

In an Irish context the death penalty is a mute discussion as it’s not a legally possible sentence. The only ones who still do the death penalty for the smallest of perceived transgressions is the criminal fraternity.

mynamejeff wrote: »

it was another poster who called you on you widely inaccurate statement.

you stated that statistics back up your statement then posted a link with contradictory stats

lol inaccurate facts are not still facts


you might as well have claimed the moon is made of cheese for all the proof you provided

on the other hand I never claimed to have stats to back up my opinion.

oh we know you didnt have stats to back your opinion. you never do. just endless bull****.

mynamejeff

ohnonotgmail wrote: »

oh we know you didnt have stats to back your opinion. you never do. just endless bull****.

I never claimed to have stats , just opinion ,unlike you who claim to have stats and then blew yourself out of the water

your getting very upset about someone else's valid opinion ….


incidentally stevie was a lot closer estimating nearly 100 percent than you were with 5 percent

mynamejeff

seamus wrote: »

In Ireland, it's at least 3%

Is that acceptable?

3 percent of convictions for murder in Ireland are proven to be false and the person totally innocent ?

id have though a lot less. id love to see that source


from the US perhaps ?

The Innocence Project works to exonerate people in the United States who have been wrongfully convicted of crime. It has estimated that between 2.3 percent and 5 percent of all US prisoners are innocent. The Innocence Project was founded in 1992 by Barry Scheck and Peter Neufeld. Scheck and Neufeld gained national attention in the mid-1990s as part of the "Dream Team" of lawyers who formed part of the defense in the O. J. Simpson murder case.