Guinness SIX Nations 2021

molloyjh

fonecrusher1 wrote: »

Add another team & possibly introduce some sort of 2 tier system or relegation type feature. Its worth consideration at least. Anything to offer some sort of incentive for them (Italy) to do better.

Other than being great for scalping points between the genuinely competitive games I can't see how changing nothing and having another 20 years of Italy as whipping boys is going to benefit the competition.

Do people actually believe that the Italians are happy bring whipping boys and aren't bothered doing better?

Podge_irl

TomsOnTheRoof wrote: »

To be honest I think it's only fair. Otherwise the Scots are going to be without their French and English contingents.

I can not see a scenario where the game is rescheduled and their foreign contingent is not available. I know the clubs are gaining more and more power, but WR still rules the roost.

fonecrusher1

Podge_irl wrote: »

You think they're not doing better cause they just couldn't be bothered?

Really you got that from my post? :rolleyes:

When did I say that?

ionadnapokot

penybont exile wrote: »

I'd take my chances with that if it gets the whole thing done and dusted on March 20th ......

It would be a great finale in Paris.
The better team will loose (sic) - see 2019 RWC QF

But seriously Wales have shown great resolve this year...again
& always seem to play well in Paris.

France could be in a state after this mess.
So....yea Wales win another Grand Slam (sick)!!

Podge_irl

fonecrusher1 wrote: »

Really you got that from my post? :rolleyes:

When did I say that?

You think Italy are lacking an incentive to do better as if that is what is holding them back. I'm not sure exactly what incentive you think they are lacking.

If anything they are currently in the perfect position to advance - they can experiment and develop without worrying about dropping into rugby purgatory. I guarantee you wouldn't be seeing a squad over 50% under 23 with burgeoning attacking talent if they were facing the drop every single year.

fonecrusher1

Podge_irl wrote: »

You think Italy are lacking an incentive to do better as if that is what is holding them back. I'm not sure exactly what incentive you think they are lacking.

If anything they are currently in the perfect position to advance - they can experiment and develop without worrying about dropping into rugby purgatory. I guarantee you wouldn't be seeing a squad over 50% under 23 with burgeoning attacking talent if they were facing the drop every single year.

So you're happy to leave things as they are so?

BonnieSituation

ionadnapokot wrote: »

It would be a great finale in Paris.
The better team will loose (sic) - see 2019 RWC QF

But seriously Wales have shown great resolve this year...again
& always seem to play well in Paris.

France could be in a state after this mess.
So....yea Wales win another Grand Slam (sick)!!

Tom Brady wins the super bowl... Wales win a grand slam...

Can only mean one thing, Kerry are winning an All Ireland!

Stop the world I want to get off!

Podge_irl

fonecrusher1 wrote: »

So you're happy to leave things as they are so?

No, I would rather further investment in Italian rugby but ultimately I also know there are no quick and easy solutions. It is either accept this or revert to a 5N.

Jump_In_Jack

Try to get SA and Argentina in and use the Autumn Nations format.

Offer Georgia, Fiji and Japan an opportunity to compete in a tournament in November with the bottom ranked team from the previous 6 nations championship.
Winner gains entry to next 6 nations championship.

Lost Ormond

Jump_In_Jack wrote: »

Try to get SA and Argentina in and use the Autumn Nations format.

Offer Georgia, Fiji and Japan an opportunity to compete in a tournament in November with the bottom ranked team from the previous 6 nations championship.
Winner gains entry to next 6 nations championship.

What about Australia and New Zealand. we cant afford to let them drift away and teams at bottom of 6Nations flip flopping with next tier below does nobody any good.

Dr. Bre

Lost Ormond wrote: »

What about Australia and New Zealand. we cant afford to let them drift away and teams at bottom of 6Nations flip flopping with next tier below does nobody any good.

Then the six nations becomes a World Cup every year

lawred2

Having Southern hemisphere teams involved in the 6n sounds horrendous to me personally

Jump_In_Jack

South Africa is 2 hours ahead, and Argentina is 3 hours behind our time zone, so that makes good sense for TV audiences.
Georgia is 4 hours ahead, USA and Canada are 5 hours behind.

Japan, Aus, NZ and Fiji are all in very different time zones.

Lost Ormond

Jump_In_Jack wrote: »

South Africa is 2 hours ahead, and Argentina is 3 hours behind our time zone, so that makes good sense for TV audiences.
Georgia is 4 hours ahead, USA and Canada are 5 hours behind.

Japan, Aus, NZ and Fiji are all in very different time zones.

We shouldnt and cant add South Africa and Argentina to the 6 Nations as it messes up all the rest of the top nations and rugby isnt big enough to cope with that.
It would have all the biggest markets in together and the rest would struggle hugely after that. Rugby Union in Australia is struggling enough already and New Zealand would struggle a lot if it lost all of South Africa games/tv income etc

Jump_In_Jack

Lost Ormond wrote: »

We shouldnt and cant add South Africa and Argentina to the 6 Nations as it messes up all the rest of the top nations and rugby isnt big enough to cope with that.
It would have all the biggest markets in together and the rest would struggle hugely after that. Rugby Union in Australia is struggling enough already and New Zealand would struggle a lot if it lost all of South Africa games/tv income etc

It's pretty straightforward though, the unions will opt for whatever deal is the best financially.
They won't care too much about rugby in Aus or NZ if rugby is booming in Europe.
Japan, Aus, NZ, Fiji, Tonga and Samoa should form a 6 nations competition themselves.
They could even join the pacific islands together and make it a 4 nations tournament.

Is there any reason why South Africa and Argentina couldn't play the 6/8 nations in Feb and March, and still play with NZ and Aus in August/Sept?
In which case with NZ, Aus, SA, Arg, Jap, Pacific Islands (combined or separate), they could have an 6/8 nations championship themselves if they wanted to.

Lost Ormond

Jump_In_Jack wrote: »

It's pretty straightforward though, the unions will opt for whatever deal is the best financially.
They won't care too much about rugby in Aus or NZ if rugby is booming in Europe.
Japan, Aus, NZ, Fiji, Tonga and Samoa should form a 6 nations competition themselves.
They could even join the pacific islands together and make it a 4 nations tournament.

Is there any reason why South Africa and Argentina couldn't play the 6/8 nations in Feb and March, and still play with NZ and Aus in August/Sept?

Except we cant do that because we all love having New Zealand coming here, Australia playing tests, Lions tours etc and if South Africa, Argentina are playing every year in Europe and the 6 Nations then these games in NZ, Oz are less likely.
Japan, Australia etc as a 6 nations sounds fantastic but wont earn money. The pacific islands are great rugby nations but dont earn any money

hahashake

SA locked in till 2030 in the Rugby Championship. Also, one of the appeals of the 6N is a 1-3 hour flight to anywhere i.e. plenty of travelling fans. Add Africa or South America and you are looking at 11-18 hour flights, with associated cost.

Rugby needs to get Japan and possibly US and Canada involved in a regular competition. Unfortunately there is no money to involve the Pacific Islands in a regular competition.

pickarooney

Podge_irl wrote: »

Italy have won more games in their first 21 seasons than France did in theirs...

I'm far from happy with Italy's performances. But unless your suggestion is replacing them with SA by some feat of voodoo, then the only realistic option should be further investment in Italian rugby. Because there is no better team sitting there waiting to be unleashed on the European stage.

Japan

thomond2006

Time for all of us to send SA Rugby an email saying we're all rugby influencers and will promote the idea of SA in the Six Nations if we get a business class flight to Cape Town for the opener.

Dave_The_Sheep

While searching for another entirely unrelated blog post, I happened up on this Magill writeup of the 1978 Five Nations, where Wales won a grand slam. It struck me as oddly familiar. Found it an interesting read anyway.

https://magill.ie/archive/wales-werent-good

BY WINNING ALL four matches in the international rugby championship in 1978, Wales created all sorts of records - three Triple Crowns in succcession; a record number of grand slams, personal scoring records for their captain Phil rlennett and for serummhalf Gareth Edwards ,and for Edwards also the unique achievement of becoming the first Welshman to win 50 caps.



However, Wales were flattered by their grand slam. Like France, they are a good side, rather than a- great one, and they owed two of their victories to refereeing errors. But for these mistakes, the chances are that Wales' matches against both England and Ireland would have been drawn, and if they had been, the championship table would have proovided a truer reflection of the abilities of the five teams.

France had more good players than anyone else, but they chose to play throughout the championship withhout an established fly-half and without an international class goalkeeper. They did not do their homework about the opposition, either, and consequently always looked prodigal and carelessly prepared. Despite these crippling self-imposed handicaps, France very nearly won all four matches and the championship, and had only themselves to blame for failing to beat Wales in the decisive match at Cardiff Arms Park at the end of the season. Even with a flyyhalf who plays as a rather wooden full-back for his club, as Bernard Vivies does, France were consisstently more dangerous and more creative. They simply failed to take their chances.

Wales owed most to Allan Martin who unexpectedly gave them parity against Jean-Pierre Bastiat in the lineeout, and to the tactical kicking of Phil Bennett and Gareth Ed wards. As a result, Wales squeezed every drop out of the possibilities open to them France threw most of theirs away.

France were slow to react to Wales' use of the defensive wheel at the scrummage. Bastiat looked as if he had not been introduced to France's two new wings when they were trying to throw in to him in

the lineout in the first half. France also failed to make use, both at the lineout and elsewhere, of the vastly superior speed of Jean-Pierre Rives and Jean-Claude Skrela in the back row. Talent France had in abunndance, and in serum-half Jerome Gallion they had the new star of the championship, but they played as if their tactical director was as thick as two short planks.

One of the most curious features of the season was the number of controversial scores Wales made against all four of their opponents, and the consequent determination of the laws committees of England and Scotland to press for changes, nottably in the law relating to the tackle and playing the ball. The outcome. of Ireland's matches against Wales was also significantly affected by refereeing mistakes, and even after Wales' game against France, referees' societies throughout Britain were arguing that three of the four Welsh scores should not have been alllowed.

Steve Fenwick was allowed to go on and score a try for Wales against Scotland after J.J. Williams had thrown the ball forward in a tackle; Phil Bennett
kicked Wales' winning penalty goal against England when Bob Mordell was penalised for handling the ball in a ruck. when in fact the ball had never touched the ground. 1.1. Williams was allowed to score a try for Wales against Ireland after Ray Gravell had run in front of the Welsh ball-carrier, which is illegal, and had collided with three of the Irish defence, which is even more illegal. Phil Bennett scored his first try against France from a posiition set up when the Welsh midfield was offside in front of a cross-kick by Gareth Ed wards; Bennett scored his second try against France after Ray Gravell had played the ball off the ground after a tackle; and finally, Steve Fenwick dropped a goal against France after Jeff Squire had knocked on and France were given a highly dubious advantage which never looked like materialising.

Even less attractive was the obsttruction of Mike Gibson by J.P.R. Williams when Gibson was attempting to follow up a kick ahead in Ireland's match against Wales. 1.P.R. Williams . admitted on television afterwards that he had deliberately committed what soccer players call a professional foul because "it was better to give away three points, rather than four. As it happened the referee missed it." That was not all that George Domercq missed, either; not by a very long chalk.

J.P.R. Williams disappointed even more of his admirers when, in Wales' match against France, he caught a drop kick at goal by Bernard Vivies. Williams knew that the kick at goal was successful, but he ran upfield as if it had missed. Fortunately, Alan Welsby, the referee, had the courage to ignore that and award the goal.

I remember Mike Gibson raising his arm aloft to signal the success of a distinctly squeaky dropped goal by Barry John against Ireland a few years ago. I remember Tom Kiernan doing the same thing at Murrayfield in a match against Scotland. How much nicer it would have been if I.P.R. Williams had lifted his arm similarly to acknowledge the success of Vivies' kick.

Unhappily, the impression has spread this season that the Welsh team has been getting away with a lot of old soldier's tricks. These tricks are not attractive and they point to a further decline in the spirit in which the game of rugby football is being played at international level. British rugby cannnot really complain. The example set by the British Lions in South Africa in 1974 was deplorable. The fact remains, however, that any further decline in sportsmanship must innevitably lead to disenchantment and disaffection.

It is also a fact that too many of the games, and the international championship itself, have been decided by the eccentricities of refereeing decisions rather than by the actions of players. International rugby is now very much a goalkicking game, and therefore the decisions of referees are vital.

It is obvious that referees are becoming aware of this. I doubt if it was an accident that Ireland's John Nest awarded only one penalty kick to the attacking side in their opponent's half of the field in the match between Scottland and England at Murrayfield. Enggland took that kick and missed it. The only successful penalty kick at goal in the Calcutta Cup match was by England's Paul Dodge, from five yards inside his own half.

Goalkicking was the one factor that sustained Ireland. Tony Ward, their fly-half, equalled the international by scoring 38 points in his first season of international rugby. It was a reemarkable achievement.

I think that Ward is the best striker of the ball as an instep kicker that I have seen. I know that means that I rate him in front of Barry John, but remember that there were times, even after he had left Llanelli and joined Cardiff, that Barry only got on as a goalkicker as about 'fourth choice for his club. He did not really develop his technique until 1970 and 1971, four years after he first started to play international rugby. On the Lions tour of South Africa in 1968, Tom Kiernan and Bob Hiller did the goalkicking.

From the beginning of the 197 8 season, there has never been any doubt that Ward would do Ireland's goallkicking. He is like a top class tourrnament golfer pitching to a green. He is so easy and relaxed through the ball, and he stays down on the kick for so long, that it seems mildly odd if he misses the centre of the space between the posts by more than six inches.

Ward has a lot else going for him, too. Watching video-tape recordings of Ireland's games against Wales and England, I think he may well be reesolving to improve his decisionmaking as a fly-half next season, but the natural ability is unquestionably there. If he. wants to go, he will play fly-half for the Lions on their next tour of South Africa.

Ireland might well have put themmselves into a position of contending for the championship if they had been able to find a really top-class tight head prop, and a jumper to give them a share of the ball in the middle of the lineout.

England's props are among the most experienced in the game and they said from the beginning that Ireland would come unstuck beecause of their shortcomings in the front row. This proved a remarkably accurate assessment, though it is a state of affairs that is all the more surprising because of Ireland '5 great tradition of front row play. Wales did far too much damage to the Irish scrummage for the peace of mind of a team that has to rely on hard driving forward play, and acccurate goalkicking, to win matches.

The hardest part of the deal in these days of soft-toed football boots is to find a goalkicker. Ireland have one, and arguably he is already the best in the business. But where are their props?

Ireland also suffered, because of the injury to Donal Spring . He fell down some steps at Trinity College and injured an ankle and from that moment on, Ireland 'were never really in contention in the lineout, well as tVilIie Duggan and ,doss £eane played. In Ireland's games against Scottland arid France, Duggan played as well as I have ever seen him play. Keane did even better. In all four games, he played the best football of his life. I am told, on excellent authority, that Moss has been a total abstainer from the demon drink since the Lions tour ended in August. If that is the case, he must be worth an absolute fortune in advertising to temperance societies the world over! The mari has been transformed as a rugby player.

Unfortunately for Ireland, Moss Keane is not a number five jumper, and for all his excellent qualities as a loose forward, Harry Steele is not a lock. Playing out. of position as these two were, behind an indiffferen t front row, there was no way that the Irish pack could be commpetitive in the international chammpionship.

The Irish selectors will not need telling, either, that 38 of Ireland's 46 points scored in the championnship came from kicks at goal, all of them scored by Tony Ward. Ireland scored only two tries in four matches; one from a five yard serum given away by a hopelessly imprudent piece of play by Scotland's Doug Morgan and the other from a charrged down kick by J.P.R. Williams. A team needs to be more creative than that to hope for any more than a short-lived success in international rugby.

Ireland will have to, repair those weaknesses very quickly, because before they know where they are, they will be playing the All Blacks at Lansdowne Road on November 4. At least they can be sure of one thing. Mike Gibson will still be their best back.

penybont exile

Dave_The_Sheep wrote: »

While searching for another entirely unrelated blog post, I happened up on this Magill writeup of the 1978 Five Nations, where Wales won a grand slam. It struck me as oddly familiar. Found it an interesting read anyway.

https://magill.ie/archive/wales-werent-good

..... different era, same drivel ....expect nothing less from the Irish sports media. [That type of article would never be written about England .... which says it all really]

What he fails to mention was the kick anything that moves approach that Ireland took into that game in '78. It was only way they could ever hope to prevail over a far more skillful opponent after humiliating defeats in 75, 76 & 77.

I was at the GS game against France .... South Stand Upper ... benches not seats. No doubt we were the better team!

Quantum Baloney

penybont exile wrote: »

..... different era, same drivel ....expect nothing less from the Irish sports media. [That type of article would never be written about England .... which says it all really]

What he fails to mention was the kick anything that moves approach that Ireland took into that game in '78. It was only way they could ever hope to prevail over a far more skillful opponent after humiliating defeats in 75, 76 & 77.

I was at the GS game against France .... South Stand Upper ... benches not seats. No doubt we were the better team!

No clue if you are right but I love your post! Fair play.

Zzippy

43 years later!

The year is 2064. Boards has become the dominant form of social media on earth, and historical rugby debate still prevails, in the absence of all contact sport after the great concussion wars of 2037. The brain of penybont exile lives on in the corporeal form of a cyborg designed to look like Alun Wyn Jones (the real AWJ is still playing, in the rebel league on the moon, outside UN control).

Penybont exile: "All the talk of refereeing errors helping Wales win a grand slam was just the same old media drivel. I was there, on my settee, not a bench, during the 1st great Covid pandemic. I wish Peter O'Mahony hadn't been sent off, because Wales were definitely better than Ireland that day..."


Only joking PE!

Digifriendly

Didn't know there was a goalkeeper in rugby ( Para 3 Line 2).
I was at Ireland vs Wales game and Wales deserved to win despite the biased view of the person writing this article. Reading it as a whole this person has metaphorical chip on his shoulder re Wales. Another journalist could probably have written an article contradicting this one at virtually every point.

One humourous memory of Ireland vs Wales. I was in the East Terrace and the crowd was so tightly packed I was separated from a school friend. After the game was over we were reunited and he told me he had ducked under a crash barrier and emerged on the other side inside a woman's fur coat!

fonecrusher1

https://www.rte.ie/sport/rugby/2021/0301/1200282-were-not-going-anywhere-with-italy-in-six-nations/

Former Ireland coach Eddie O'Sullivan believes "we are not going anywhere" with regard to Italy's continued participation in the Guinness Six Nations ..... "They are the whipping boys of the tournament and the fact remains that every team sees Italy as an opportunity to rack up points," said Eddie O'Sullivan

Surprisingly direct from Eddie ... :pac:

sydthebeat

any word when a decision is due on the france scotland game?

ionadnapokot

Nice to see the tap and go been utilised more this year.
"In 2020 just one of the 74 tries came from a tap and go, so far this year four of the 43 have come via that means."

https://www.sixnationsrugby.com/2021/03/04/the-penalty-problem-and-irelands-kicking-trend-analysis-powered-by-aws/

ionadnapokot

penybont exile wrote: »

..... different era, same drivel ....expect nothing less from the Irish sports media. [That type of article would never be written about England .... which says it all really]

What he fails to mention was the kick anything that moves approach that Ireland took into that game in '78. It was only way they could ever hope to prevail over a far more skillful opponent after humiliating defeats in 75, 76 & 77.

I was at the GS game against France .... South Stand Upper ... benches not seats. No doubt we were the better team!

I would challenge that version of events on '78. I mean that Welsh pack of the 70's were no shrinking violets!!

Dubinusa

I remember that 5 nations. Tony Ward was sensational as was Duggan. Wales were brilliant too. At least as far as I remember.

sydthebeat

France / Scotland confirmed for 26th March.

ionadnapokot

Surprised really that France weren't punished.
But then again the 6N unions would prob loose TV revenue if the game wasn't played

lawred2

sydthebeat wrote: »

France / Scotland confirmed for 26th March.

Wales could have the slam wrapped up by then

At least it's not July I suppose

Digifriendly

sydthebeat wrote: »

France / Scotland confirmed for 26th March.

Have you a link for this?

sydthebeat

Digifriendly wrote: »

Have you a link for this?

https://twitter.com/frenchrugbypod/status/1367508412049850368?s=19

That's what I'm going by

Digifriendly

Looks like there is no firm announcement yet as this article implies - https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/rugby-union/56292163

Eod100

Digifriendly wrote: »

Looks like there is no firm announcement yet as this article implies - https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/rugby-union/56292163

No wrongdoing but what they did isn't allowed now anymore. Right so..

sydthebeat

England team to play France:
15. Max Malins (Bristol Bears, 6 caps)
14. Anthony Watson (Bath Rugby, 49 caps)
13. Henry Slade (Exeter Chiefs, 37 caps)
12. Owen Farrell (Saracens, 91 caps) (C)
11. Jonny May (Gloucester Rugby, 64 caps)
10. George Ford (Leicester Tigers, 75 caps)
9. Ben Youngs (Leicester Tigers, 107 caps)

1. Mako Vunipola (Saracens, 65 caps)
2. Luke Cowan-Dickie (Exeter Chiefs, 29 caps)
3. Kyle Sinckler (Bristol Bears, 42 caps)
4. Maro Itoje (Saracens, 46 caps)
5. Charlie Ewels (Bath Rugby, 19 caps)
6. Mark Wilson (Newcastle Falcons, 21 caps)
7. Tom Curry (Sale Sharks, 31 caps)
8. Billy Vunipola (Saracens, 59 caps)

FINISHERS (fcuk off eddie !)

16. Jamie George (Saracens, 57 caps)
17. Ellis Genge (Leicester Tigers, 26 caps)
18. Will Stuart (Bath Rugby, 10 caps)
19. Jonny Hill (Exeter Chiefs, 7 caps)
20. Ben Earl (Bristol Bears, 11 caps)
21. Dan Robson (Wasps, 10 caps)
22. Ollie Lawrence (Worcester Warriors, 4 caps)
23. Elliot Daly (Saracens, 50 caps)


France

Cyril Baille
Julien Marchand
Mohamed Haouas
Romain Taofifenua
Paul Willemse
Dylan Cretin
Charles Ollivon
Grégory Alldritt

Antoine Dupont
Matthieu Jalibert
Damian Penaud
Gael Fickou
Virimi Vakatawa
Teddy Thomas
Brice Dulin

Substitutes (decent chaps!)

Camille Chat
Jean-Baptiste Gros
Dorian Aldegheri
Cyril Cazeaux
Cameron Woki
Anthony Jelonch
Baptiste Serin
Romain Ntamack

sydthebeat

england have 2 players from the current premiership and heineken cup champions in the 23...
whilst at the same time having 6 players from the team 3rd from bottom of the championship

thomond2006

Daly is lucky to even be on the bench. He was atrocious against Wales.

CMcsporty

England will be a better team without Daly at FB. & I have never even heard of Max Malins!!

Point is Daly is not a good FB. 11 is his best position.

Yeah_Right

That is some backline the French are putting out.

CMcsporty

Who'd win a race May or Thomas?

Eod100

CMcsporty wrote: »

Who'd win a race May or Thomas?

Might find out at the weekend :pac:

CMcsporty

Eod100 wrote: »

Might find out at the weekend :pac:

Check out TT v Ioane
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jCjZg8F9ZRk&t=29s

Hopefully it will be May trying to catch Teddy on Sat

RugbyLover123

The most baffling selection call from Jones for me is how Charlie Ewels gets so much game time for England. He’s a very average second row.

Looking forward to seeing Mallins, classy player. Would have liked to have had seen Earl start with Curry and Billy in the back row.

Dubinusa

CMcsporty wrote: »

Who'd win a race May or Thomas?

Zammit

Dave_The_Sheep

sydthebeat wrote: »

Antoine Dupont
Matthieu Jalibert
Damian Penaud
Gael Fickou
Virimi Vakatawa
Teddy Thomas
Brice Dulin

Sploosh.

Bazzo

CMcsporty wrote: »

Who'd win a race May or Thomas?

A race to score a try or a race to avoid making a tackle?

thomond2006

sydthebeat wrote: »

France

Cyril Baille
Julien Marchand
Mohamed Haouas
Romain Taofifenua
Paul Willemse
Dylan Cretin
Charles Ollivon
Grégory Alldritt

Antoine Dupont
Matthieu Jalibert
Damian Penaud
Gael Fickou
Virimi Vakatawa
Teddy Thomas
Brice Dulin

Substitutes (decent chaps!)

Camille Chat
Jean-Baptiste Gros
Dorian Aldegheri
Cyril Cazeaux
Cameron Woki
Anthony Jelonch
Baptiste Serin
Romain Ntamack

Dickie10

I fancy a reaction from England this weekend . think they might sneak this . prediction England 23 France 20