Pregnancy out of wedlock and perception of disgrace.

eviltwin

walshb wrote: »

That's all well and good

But don't you know, personal responsibility is a no no these days....

It's always society as a whole that is at fault....

Or the daddy's fault......

No one is saying that :rolleyes: Everyone is responsible for their own choices but none of us live in a vacuum and certain people have more choices than others or different ways to get out of a bad situation.

blanch152

Samsonsmasher wrote: »

The Nationalist Gaelic and Catholic revival had a lot to do with it.

You have to remember that Irish separatism and the Catholic Church were not one and the same but very interlinked.

The Irish Gaelic clan system and the Anglo Irish Old English nobility was shattered between the 16th and 17th centuries by plantation war and famine. The Gaels and the Old English supported the Stuart cause until the 18th Century when the Young Pretender died in exile. The Penal Laws were relaxed and repealed against Catholicism from the late 18th century when the Papacy finally recognised the British Protestant Crown around the sane time Maynooth College first opened until Catholic Emancipation and the Tithe War. A fair bit of anti Catholic bigotry coloured British laissez faire policy toward the Irish during the Great Famine.
A lot of parish churches were first built in the 1830s and it was only after the success of the Land War in the late 19th century that Catholic farmers gained control of their land and no longer paid rack rents to absentee British aristocrats. They prospered and spent their money on lavish cathedrals and high spired churches to put local Anglicans to shame.
The Gaelic Revival grew out if this confidence which led to the push for Home Rule by the Irish Parliamentary Party and the rise of Sinn Féin and the IRA a few years later.

The Irish Catholic Nationalists and Republicans wanted to create an Ireland that was Gaelic Catholic and Free. You have to remember that the men of the flying columns were mostly virgins mass goers and non drinkers who took the Pioneer pledge and if they weren't hero worshipping Cuchulainn or playing hurling were praying the rosary.

Huge numbers of young people with the spark of vocation became "heroic missionaries" and "dedicated brothers and sisters" and "helpers in the work of tomorrow" just as young people today join NGOs.

The idea that the Irish were uniquely pure Catholic innocent and pious the land of saints and scholars and noble warriors clashed with the poverty and misery of urban and rural Ireland. Conservative middle class Ireland saw the lower classes as an embarrasment.

The fact Ireland was impoverished further in the 1929 Crash the Economic War of the 1930s the Emergency and the isolation of the 1950s making a mockery of the dreams of the Irish Revolution led to a war against the poor against intellectuals against socialists and radicals and most importantly against those who did not obey Catholic morality. They were put out of sight and mind along with emigrants who were seen as traitors for leaving to live in Britain and America.

Radicals who might have challenged this system were too concerned with splits in Republicanism hatred of Unionists and the British when thry should have turned their guns on the Church. Paisley a bigot himself of course was right about Rome Rule and the Romeward trend and knew what was in store for the Protestant people.

It's not surprising that the Irish Cabinet deferred to the Catholic hierarchy. The hierarchy were superior administers and part of the first multi national corporation - the Catholic Church.
Later Ireland would join the UN and EEC later the EU and allow multi national companies to establish themselves here and the Catholic Church was history.

Exclusionary nationalism combined with a form of sectarianism - one of the most toxic ideologies the world has seen. We were gripped by it in the period from 1930s to 1950s under De Valera. We must remain vigilant against its revival.

Ave Sodalis

Well it's nice to know the overdone single mother (not even single parent) bashing is still going strong on Boards. Honestly, have we not moved on from that by now? I thought it was pretty well established that that kind of thing didn't begin until the start of the last recession when the government needed someone to sh*t on to distract from the massive cuts they were dishing out. I guess people are either still living in the past, willfully ignorant, or feel the need to making themselves feel better about their own lives.
The best thing about it is that people still harping on about single mothers and similar topics have no idea that they come across like a bunch of silly children pointing fingers because some other kid looked at them "funny". It's just pathetic at this point.

mariaalice

fantaiscool wrote: »

The single mother is the one who chose to procreate with the "deadbeat" father at the end of the day. That was a bad decision on her part which probably wouldn't have been made had the supports not been there. I know a few girls who had kids with guys who were very clearly not going to be good fathers.

That is a self-esteem issue people do choose who to surround themselves with.

mariaalice

Fred Cryton wrote: »

The last taboo in ireland is to question the accommodation by the State of single mothers to the point where they don't have to work. Whether you like it or not single motherhood is at the very core of almost ALL social problems in ireland - anti-social behaviour, crime, low education attainment...the list goes on.



Instead of rewarding women with a free house if they get pregnant early, how about building their self esteem and preventing them from going down the poverty path and the looking for a handout route in the first place.

On average, 58.7% (down 2.4% in 2019) of lone parents were participating in the labour market in Q2 2020. This compares with participation rates of 76.3% (down 1.9%) for the adult members of couples with children, and 49.4% (down 1.1%) for the adult members of couples without children. This dispels the myth that lone parents are not engaging in, and seeking, work outside the home.

The majority of lone parents work, what interests me is that with a bit of googling its easy to find the information, yet the myths persist.

https://onefamily.ie/media-policy/facts-figures/#:~:text=In%20Q2%202020%2C%20the%20employment,members%20of%20couples%20without%20children.

Donald Trump

mariaalice wrote: »

On average, 58.7% (down 2.4% in 2019) of lone parents were participating in the labour market in Q2 2020. This compares with participation rates of 76.3% (down 1.9%) for the adult members of couples with children, and 49.4% (down 1.1%) for the adult members of couples without children. This dispels the myth that lone parents are not engaging in, and seeking, work outside the home.

The majority of lone parents work, what interests me is that with a bit of googling its easy to find the information, yet the myths persist.

https://onefamily.ie/media-policy/facts-figures/#:~:text=In%20Q2%202020%2C%20the%20employment,members%20of%20couples%20without%20children.

It is also the case though that the system changed a few years back - no? Wasn't there a time when the lone-parent's allowance was unconditional even up until the last child left third level? Whereas now the parent could be sent on schemes or jobs similar to someone on the dole after the child turns 7?


So, people who have a certain perception might have formed that perception under the old system and maybe don't know it did change a bit.

walshb

eviltwin wrote: »

certain people have more choices than others or different ways to get out of a bad situation.

Of course they do...nobody said otherwise....

But there is a real rush (an increasing rush) to blame every ill on someone or something else...

Across all walks of life....not just pregnancy/women issues...

In relation to this thread and pregnancy out of wedlock/single mothers....it's part of life now.....seen as normal...

Whether people frown upon it or not, it is quite a common/accepted and normal part of society...

Me personally: For my daughter. I would like to think that if she wanted a baby that she did so in a stable and proper functioning relationship...

I do realize that this is not always going to happen, but I would be instilling this view. I wouldn't not be giving any view.

Eric Cartman

mariaalice wrote: »

On average, 58.7% (down 2.4% in 2019) of lone parents were participating in the labour market in Q2 2020. This compares with participation rates of 76.3% (down 1.9%) for the adult members of couples with children, and 49.4% (down 1.1%) for the adult members of couples without children. This dispels the myth that lone parents are not engaging in, and seeking, work outside the home.

The majority of lone parents work, what interests me is that with a bit of googling its easy to find the information, yet the myths persist.

https://onefamily.ie/media-policy/facts-figures/#:~:text=In%20Q2%202020%2C%20the%20employment,members%20of%20couples%20without%20children.

its a slim majority but even judging by welfare and working family payment stats there, the ones that do work it seems are working for under 500 a week (+100 or so for each additional child)

it would be fair to say that half of lone parents work, but only a tiny minority of those are net contributors to the economy (58% working , 54% in receipt of WfP)
so only 4% of single parents are self sufficient.

its not really a myth when you're right half the time that they're not working and the other half of the time they're not working enough to maintain a household.

Absolutely not having a go but by the numbers its fair to say that 96% of the time lone parents are economic detractors from the state.

mariaalice

walshb wrote: »

Of course they do...nobody said otherwise....

But there is a real rush (an increasing rush) to blame every ill on someone or something else...

Across all walks of life....not just pregnancy/women issues...

In relation to this thread and pregnancy out of wedlock/single mothers....it's part of life now.....seen as normal...

Whether people frown upon it or not, it is quite a common/accepted and normal part of society...

Me personally: For my daughter. I would like to think that if she wanted a baby that she did so in a stable and proper functioning relationship...

I do realize that this is not always going to happen, but I would be instilling this view. I wouldn't not be giving any view.

That is in your hands really, it's not about what you say it's what you do, what sort of male-female relationship are you molding to her?

eviltwin

[QUOTE=walshb;115928261
Me personally: For my daughter. I would like to think that if she wanted a baby that she did so in a stable and proper functioning relationship...

I do realize that this is not always going to happen, but I would be instilling this view. I wouldn't not be giving any view.[/QUOTE]

I tell my kids the exact same thing and I'm confident that they will but then I know my kids are growing up in a completely different environment to that of other people. They have opportunities in life that make having a child an unattractive proposition. That doesn't make my kids better than others, it just makes them fortunate. Others aren't and I wouldn't judge a young mother or father for it.

mariaalice

Eric Cartman wrote: »

its a slim majority but even judging by welfare and working family payment stats there, the ones that do work it seems are working for under 500 a week (+100 or so for each additional child)

it would be fair to say that half of lone parents work, but only a tiny minority of those are net contributors to the economy (58% working , 54% in receipt of WfP)
so only 4% of single parents are self sufficient.

its not really a myth when you're right half the time that they're not working and the other half of the time they're not working enough to maintain a household.

Absolutely not having a go but by the numbers its fair to say that 96% of the time lone parents are economic detractors from the state.

So what, the system is not perfect most low earners of all varieties get back more than they put in are we going to blame people for not having a high paying job.

mariaalice

Donald Trump wrote: »

It is also the case though that the system changed a few years back - no? Wasn't there a time when the lone-parent's allowance was unconditional even up until the last child left third level? Whereas now the parent could be sent on schemes or jobs similar to someone on the dole after the child turns 7?


So, people who have a certain perception might have formed that perception under the old system and maybe don't know it did change a bit.

But instead of recycling old myths why not do a bit of research.

Helgagirl

A lot of the comments are making it sound that every time a woman has sex they are trying to get pregnant! Does every man think of the reality of reproduction when they have sex, or is it just that a man can have sex for pleasure but a woman can't and shouldn't except to get pregnant! Why is it just the woman should always be responsible when it happens. That is the Church's teaching so all the Church bashers should take a look at their thought processes and so much for equality.
You can't have it both ways, complain that these poor woman who were let down by the Church, their own families and society in general, and then complain if a woman needs financial help but that's okay as long as it doesn't affect you! That was the point I was trying to make.
Maybe there is an amount of women who get pregnant because of social welfare payments, but personally having to raise two kids with a husband who works, and I was lucky enough to be able to stay home to mind my kids, but it was still a struggle at times to get along financially I don't think social welfare recipients are living like royalty. All the people complaining about the PUP payments and how hard it is to live on them should have a taste of what life is like living on social welfare. I would imagine it isn't as wonderful as people might think.
And my personal experience I had an elder sibling who gave birth in the late 70's, we had a very religious father, who while deeply upset by the situation never said a cross word to my sibling, and took care of all of us , so blame the families who handed over these girls too not just the religious orders.

Donald Trump

mariaalice wrote: »

But instead of recycling old myths why not do a bit of research.

Do you mean me or others? What I posted was correct - no?

mariaalice

Donald Trump wrote: »

Point out what I said that was untrue.




Up to a few years ago, a lone parent was automatically entitled to lone parents benefits while the child was in full time education.


That changed a few years back. Now the automatic entitlement is gone after the child hits a certain age



What is mythical there? Are you saying that it didn't actually change? Because that was my point that it had and that people might not be aware of it.


If you aren't aware of the above, I suggest that, with all due respect, you do a bit of research yourself

Not you specifically but in general on boards.

Donald Trump

mariaalice wrote: »

Not you specifically but in general on board.

Yes sorry, I misread your post first then and realised that and deleted it while you were replying to it! I thought initially you were saying I was spreading myths and then realised you might not mean that

I had posted a different reply after deleting that and it came in just before yours!

Sorry. my mistake

walshb

mariaalice wrote: »

That is in your hands really, it's not about what you say it's what you do, what sort of male-female relationship are you molding to her?

Not with you here...

I would simply guide her, as all fathers should do for their children...hopefully guide her down the best path...

fantaiscool

Helgagirl wrote: »

A lot of the comments are making it sound that every time a woman has sex they are trying to get pregnant! Does every man think of the reality of reproduction when they have sex, or is it just that a man can have sex for pleasure but a woman can't and shouldn't except to get pregnant! Why is it just the woman should always be responsible when it happens. That is the Church's teaching so all the Church bashers should take a look at their thought processes and so much for equality.
You can't have it both ways, complain that these poor woman who were let down by the Church, their own families and society in general, and then complain if a woman needs financial help but that's okay as long as it doesn't affect you! That was the point I was trying to make.
Maybe there is an amount of women who get pregnant because of social welfare payments, but personally having to raise two kids with a husband who works, and I was lucky enough to be able to stay home to mind my kids, but it was still a struggle at times to get along financially I don't think social welfare recipients are living like royalty. All the people complaining about the PUP payments and how hard it is to live on them should have a taste of what life is like living on social welfare. I would imagine it isn't as wonderful as people might think.
And my personal experience I had an elder sibling who gave birth in the late 70's, we had a very religious father, who while deeply upset by the situation never said a cross word to my sibling, and took care of all of us , so blame the families who handed over these girls too not just the religious orders.

I think if you're the one that is going to be saddled with the kid then you should not be choosing a deadbeat to have kids with. You should be operating under the assumption that having sex with someone can produce a kid. Very rarely are precautions taken. At least the option of abortion is now there. The statistics on kids raised by single mothers are not good.

mariaalice

walshb wrote: »

Not with you here...

I would simply guide her, as all fathers should do for their children...hopefully guide her down the best path...

It is still more about what you do and not what you say.

The vast majority of people turn out grand no matter what path in life they take it's good to remember that.

walshb

mariaalice wrote: »

It is still more about what you do and not what you say.

The vast majority of people turn out grand no matter what path in life they take it's good to remember that.

What do you mean, what I do?

Is talking to your children not part of guiding and advising?

I am a little confused on what you mean here...

Do you mean my actions, as in physical actions? If so, can you give an example(s)?

mariaalice

walshb wrote: »

What do you mean, what I do?

Is talking to your children not part of guiding and advising?

I am a little confused on what you mean here...

Do you mean my actions, as in physical actions? If so, can you give an example(s)?

children take their cues about behavior from the adults around them so if they grow up in a situation where were they see respectful attitudes and a loving relationship they will expect relationships that are respectful as adults.

In other words if they grow up in a situation where the grandfather kicks the dog, the father kicks the dog they will most likely grow up kicking the dog.

Helgagirl

fantaiscool wrote: »

I think if you're the one that is going to be saddled with the kid then you should not be choosing a deadbeat to have kids with. You should be operating under the assumption that having sex with someone can produce a kid. Very rarely are precautions taken. At least the option of abortion is now there. The statistics on kids raised by single mothers are not good.

What man tells a woman before sex if you get pregnant you are on your own. It's hard to know whether a person will be a good father before they have proven otherwise. I wish life was as perfect but it isn't, and people get carried away, drink lowers inhibitions, etc. most single mothers probably found themselves that way by accident, and abortion to me is murder so anyone who feels like that, it isn't an option!

walshb

mariaalice wrote: »

children take their cues about behavior from the adults around them so if they grow up in a situation where were they see respectful attitudes and a loving relationship they will expect relationships that are respectful as adults.

I get you....and fully agree....

Guidance is multifaceted.....and evolving....and two ways.....and all that...

walshb

Helgagirl wrote: »

What man tells a woman before sex if you get pregnant you are on your own. It's hard to know whether a person will be a good father before they have proven otherwise. I wish life was as perfect but it isn't, and people get carried away, drink lowers inhibitions, etc. most single mothers probably found themselves that way by accident, and abortion to me is murder so anyone who feels like that, it isn't an option!

Pregnancy does not happen by accident.....it requires actual choices

I am not including rape here.....

Donald Trump

Helgagirl wrote: »

What man tells a woman before sex if you get pregnant you are on your own. It's hard to know whether a person will be a good father before they have proven otherwise. I wish life was as perfect but it isn't, and people get carried away, drink lowers inhibitions, etc. most single mothers probably found themselves that way by accident, and abortion to me is murder so anyone who feels like that, it isn't an option!

While what you say is correct, there are also women who get pregnant by fellas whom they know already have numerous kids individually with other women that they don't do anything for.



If a fella is the type that doesn't accept any consequences or responsibility for things, he is even less likely to take reasonable precautions


A girl can be unlucky and get pregnant by a fella who seemed otherwise responsible and stable of course. You can't know in advance. But if she gets pregnant by a fella that already ignores the 4 different kids he has had with 4 different women over the previous few years years then she can't really say she would have expected him to take responsibility for hers.

saabsaab

It is hard for younger people to imagine how much of a 'disgrace' it was seen to be right until the 90's. I knew a girl that got pregnant and she had to leave home. The child was adopted even though the father was around and as far as I know willing to marry her but the family felt he wasn't 'good' enough (had a civil service job). It was the talk of the town at the time and for years after. This was in the 80's.

mrslancaster

Fred Cryton wrote: »

....Whether you like it or not single motherhood is at the very core of almost ALL social problems in ireland - anti-social behaviour, crime, low education attainment...the list goes on....

A bit of stereotyping there... Would you include widows who raise children alone in that or do you only refer to mothers without the marriage cert?

Donald Trump

saabsaab wrote: »

It is hard for younger people to imagine how much of a 'disgrace' it was seen to be right until the 90's. I knew a girl that got pregnant and she had to leave home. The child was adopted even though the father was around and as far as I know willing to marry her but the family felt he wasn't 'good' enough (had a civil service job). It was the talk of the town at the time and for years after. This was in the 80's.

He's probably laughing at them now. Swanning around waving his hefty early-retirement pension at them and showering the plebs with loose change

saabsaab

Donald Trump wrote: »

He's probably laughing at them now. Swanning around waving his hefty early-retirement pension at them and showering the plebs with loose change

Maybe, but I doubt that what he has is a fraction of that family's collective wealth.

Electric Sheep

political analyst wrote: »

Why put themselves in the position of being accused of wrecking marriages (an unjust accusation but the reality is that's what would have been done to them back then)?

Love mostly. Don't you think that Joanne Hayes believed that Jeremiah Locke would leave his wife for her? It was his disinterest in their daughter that finally made her face the truth.

It's a story as old as humanity.