Time to embrace Unionism?

James Brown

Haraldkare wrote: »

Is there room for a Unionist party in the Republic? Have we become a failed state?
The Brits said that we were not fit to govern ourselves. I grew up scoffing at this, and being pushed into the nationalist pride that every country shoves down the throats of its youth.

I find we Irish always like to include ourselves in matters, and now we are in a club with the Nazi's, Yugoslavs, Burmese, etc with mass killings of our own.

We have or are in the process of abandoning our church as the evils of the past fog any benefits it provided. Should we do the same with our state?

We were told of how progressive and booming a nation we are, but it seems it is only for the rich.
We are among the highest infections per capita and the slowest vaccine rollout. And a government that uses a national travesty to sneak former ministers back into work.

I sometimes think that the British were right. I think there are a lot of citizens in Ireland that would prefer to be run by Britain, but feel ashamed to admit it.

Bowie says NO!

Nothing wrong with people within British jurisdiction wishing to remain so. You are mixing up the treatment leveled upon the Irish/nationalists/Catholics in the occupied portion of Ulster under a faux democracy and boot of the BA and other murderous organisations with the crony self serving no accountability civil war parties of FF/FG.
It shouldn't be an either or scenario.

Maybe some deluded folk who don't recall Thatcher and are unaware of the Tory party of today. TBF, the British spent many decades butchering people all around the world. Not defending the behaviour of the church, Garda and FF/FG.

Yeah, Boris 'why isn't he called Murphy like the rest of them' Johnson would really get middle to low income workers in Athlone...

lawred2

WesternZulu wrote: »

Not necessarily, if we're taking about roads then there have been huge improvements in Ireland in that past few decades.

Ireland now has far superior roads than NI whereas a lot of the older infrastructure in Britain is beginning to look dated since construction in the 50s.

If we're taking public transport infrastructure; we're as bad as eachother.

Our urban rail is incomparable to what they have...

boetstark

TheBoyConor wrote: »

No how could a unionist party have any basis to exist in the free 26?

What would their platform be? That the free 26 ought to just reverse the last 100 odd years of independence from the UK, amputate itself from the European Union, and then re-hitch the wagon to what is now a foreign country, and not only that, a foreign country that has voluntarily chosen to self destruct and is now slowly but surely going down the social and economic swally and turning into a basket case nation.

Yeah, I think a party proposing that would get a fair few seats in the Dail.

A unionist movement in the North has a legitimate basis - advocating the maintenance of the status quo. Setting up a platform in the 26 advocating a complete reversal of everything achieved in the 26 in the last 100 years is an entirely different proposition. And an absolutely crazy one at that.

In fairness calling UK a basket case..... A bit like the flea hanging off an elephants balls telling him he walks very slow

Haraldkare

TheIrishGrover wrote: »

Now, I'm assuming this is a troll but hey, I'll bite.

Have.... have you SEEN British history?

After recent revelations, are we any better? Given a shorter period of time.

It's the future that we will be looking towards. With the incoming reset things are going to change anyway.

And on trolling, I guess technically it is trolling. But I'm not trying to wind people up. I'm genuinely interested in the level of backlash and agreement towards it.

tonbinn

Far from trolling I'd say. I was in a house a while back for a few late ones where the son of a 90s FG justice minister was eagerly endorsing the idea that our future lies in rejoining the UK. I don't think people realise how deep-set that mindset is in some quarters in our body-politik (i didn't quite myself TBH until I heard yer man). Charlie Tanigan and the like let the mask slip though now and again- people elected to gov. who don't want us to have our own government at all. Guess who'll be merging with the dinosaurs if the border ever does go?

dd973

The future is small, and we should be modeling ourselves on Nordic countries and the Dutch not some post imperial basketcase that's been in decline since the late 19th Century, hopefully the Scots going will weaken the Unionist psychological orientation towards Britain.

As for the English, who'd want to be like them?, no proper national anthem, no proper parliament, totally unequal and London centric, vast swathes of the country in ownership of Norman invasion Lords, First past the post voting, useless Tory and Labour duopoly, unelected head of state and second chamber, they can't even get an English passport, stuck with British ones!

stoneill

On the other hand, the UK could drop the windsor family, become a republic, and join with us to become a large unified state with it's seat of power in Dublin.

Granadino

BloodBath wrote: »

The Brits handling of Covid was even worse than ours btw. We handled it quite well in comparison.

To be fair, no country has handled it well.

Granadino

dd973 wrote: »

The future is small, and we should be modeling ourselves on Nordic countries and the Dutch not some post imperial basketcase that's been in decline since the late 19th Century, hopefully the Scots going will weaken the Unionist psychological orientation towards Britain.

As for the English, who'd want to be like them?, no proper national anthem, no proper parliament, totally unequal and London centric, vast swathes of the country in ownership of Norman invasion Lords, First past the post voting, useless Tory and Labour duopoly, unelected head of state and second chamber, they can't even get an English passport, stuck with British ones!

This.

But I don't agree with your "who'd want to be like them?". Your average English person isn't too different to your average Irish person.
In general, we'll go abroad and seek out an Irish or British pub for a beer...

tonbinn

dd973 wrote: »

The future is small, and we should be modeling ourselves on Nordic countries and the Dutch not some post imperial basketcase that's been in decline since the late 19th Century, hopefully the Scots going will weaken the Unionist psychological orientation towards Britain.

As for the English, who'd want to be like them?, no proper national anthem, no proper parliament, totally unequal and London centric, vast swathes of the country in ownership of Norman invasion Lords, First past the post voting, useless Tory and Labour duopoly, unelected head of state and second chamber, they can't even get an English passport, stuck with British ones!

Some of that is on the money but we shouldn't be "modelling" ourselves on anyone. That's the very detrimental part of the post-colonial psyche that the nation really needs to shed if it's ever to go anywhere. Ourselves and Ireland, that's what we need to modelled on and nothing else. Leaders and followers- followers walk off a cliff eventually. Ask Arlene.

tonbinn

Granadino wrote: »

This.

But I don't agree with your "who'd want to be like them?". Your average English person isn't too different to your average Irish person.
In general, we'll go abroad and seek out an Irish or British pub for a beer...

We are about as similar as an Irishman and a Frenchman or an Englishman and a Dane. Or any other combination but the loss of our language disguises the many profound cultural diffreneces between your average brit and paddy. Native and planter/invader, northern european protestantism vs southern catholicism and so on. Those things are always just beneath the surface. And I don't know about you but when I'm abroad, anywhere there are Brits drinking is just about the last pace on Earth I want to be.

Granadino

tonbinn wrote: »

We are about as similar as an Irishman and a Frenchman or an Englishman and a Dane. Or any other combination but the loss of our language disguises the many profound cultural diffreneces between your average brit and paddy. Native and planter/invader, northern european protestantism vs southern catholicism and so on. Those things are always just beneath the surface. And I don't know about you but when I'm abroad, anywhere there are Brits drinking is just about the last pace on Earth I want to be.

Depends on what type of Brit you mean. Same as I would avoid a holiday resort full of Irish pubs and their Irish clientele. e.g. Costa del Sol. Not my thing, but each to their own. I wouldn't avoid "the Irish" on holidays, but I have no interest in going to English bars or Irish bars and having fry ups etc.
We are culturally more similar to British than we are to French, Spanish, Danes, etc. There are differences in Ireland between city and rural, east and west, the same as there are between northern and southern English.
But in general, we're culturally anglo saxon.

Oscar Madison

Fine Gael were the Irish Unionist Party of old so I suppose we already have or are!

maccored

what would be there point though? If the loyalist/unionist faction is all about being loyal to the queen and keeping the union - why would they have a party in the republic?

storker

Oscar Madison wrote: »

Fine Gael were the Irish Unionist Party of old so I suppose we already have or are!

I think there's a difference between being Pro-Treaty and Pro-Unionist.

Granadino

maccored wrote: »

what would be there point though? If the loyalist/unionist faction is all about being loyal to the queen and keeping the union - why would they have a party in the republic?

This is it. How can you "accomodate" a loyalist in a "new Ireland" as SF keep saying? You can't. Same as nationalists in the north. You can try your best to accommodate, but a UI is the end goal...

murpho999

Why do some people spout the notion that we're a failed state?

I really wonder if people who say this nonsense have travelled at all.

The mother and child scandal is a disgrace that shames the church in many ways but also the state (ie government) at that time.

The report that come out this week and government apology is evidence of the success of the state in investigating the matter, reporting on it honestly, admitting errors and ensuring that this never happens again. Compensation to the victims should follow next and that is correct.

Outside of this the state is a complete success with a strong economy (excluding Covid), educated and healthy population, very high standard of living that compares well to other countries.

The country is a full democracy and a fully fledged member of the EU, citizens and media have freedom, corruption levels (despite what many say) are low.

Like every country, it's not perfect, things go wrong but just because things go wrong it does not mean it's a failed state. Far from it.

Either way, returning to UK would offer no advantages as the country is in much better shape on its own than it ever was when it was ruled by Britain.

cgcsb

Silly thread. What would unionism advocate? undo 100 years of progress and become some grim English colony like Wales? Outsource governance to English tories? g'wan outta that.

You'd get more people advocating that England should become a province of the Irish Republic given their thundering ineptitude at self governance.

cgcsb

tonbinn wrote: »

The real indicators of prosperity are health, life expectancy, education, re-creation facilities, the state of the place around where you live, air quality, access to good food and so on.

And still Ireland batters the bejesus out of the UK, and the vast majority of countries in the world based on those indicators.

cgcsb

Granadino wrote: »

This.

But I don't agree with your "who'd want to be like them?". Your average English person isn't too different to your average Irish person.
In general, we'll go abroad and seek out an Irish or British pub for a beer...

Eh no they don't. In fact in Spain Irish people will set out to avoid English bars because they get too aggressive and shouty when they consume alcohol. Go to Gran Canaria and ask the local police what group are appearing in the local court rooms most often. Much rather hang out with the Scandies or the dutch on holliers.

breezy1985

tonbinn wrote: »

Far from trolling I'd say. I was in a house a while back for a few late ones where the son of a 90s FG justice minister was eagerly endorsing the idea that our future lies in rejoining the UK. I don't think people realise how deep-set that mindset is in some quarters in our body-politik (i didn't quite myself TBH until I heard yer man). Charlie Tanigan and the like let the mask slip though now and again- people elected to gov. who don't want us to have our own government at all. Guess who'll be merging with the dinosaurs if the border ever does go?

Ya but considering the groups they wanted us to join a generation before that joining the UK would be progressive for a blueshirt

Jim2007

Haraldkare wrote: »

Perhaps more accountability for the ruling party? I imagine the queen to crack the whip a bit harder than our president, if Fianna Fáil was before her.

How embarrassing, you clearly know absolutely nothing about how either country is actually governed, constitutions, democratic processes etc....


No point in taking you seriously at all.

cgcsb

Oscar Madison wrote: »

Fine Gael were the Irish Unionist Party of old so I suppose we already have or are!

They keep going that way but they've been chastised about being too open about it. Didn't they want a tan commemoration before the people said no.

trashcan

TheBoyConor wrote: »

What would their platform be? That the free 26 ought to just reverse the last 100 odd years of independence from the UK, amputate itself from the European Union, and then re-hitch the wagon to what is now a foreign country, and not only that, a foreign country that has voluntarily chosen to self destruct and is now slowly but surely going down the social and economic swally and turning into a basket case nation.

Well, when you put it like that . Where do I sign up ? :cool:

Hamsterchops

cgcsb wrote: »

And still Ireland batters the bejesus out of the UK, and the vast majority of countries in the world based on those indicators.

So the way it works is like this, Ireland population 4.7 million, sparsely populated country Vs The United Kingdom, population 67 million, very densely populated (in places), very sparsely populated in other places, with four countries/ regions all in one, so although on paper you can compare averages it doesn't really tell the bigger picture.

You might be better comparing Ireland to Scotland, Wales, Devon & Cornwall or Yorkshire!

Then you could have a proper contest to see who could "batter the bejesus" out of who

Ireland night still win, but at least the comparisons would be farer and easier to calculate.

Kaybaykwah

I wake up every day worshipping high technology for the fact that I never handle money with the queen's effigy any more. (Canada)

cgcsb

Hamsterchops wrote: »

So the way it works is like this, Ireland population 4.7 million, sparsely populated country Vs The United Kingdom, population 67 million, very densely populated (in places), very sparsely populated in other places, with four countries/ regions all in one, so although on paper you can compare averages it doesn't really tell the bigger picture.

You might be better comparing Ireland to Scotland, Wales, Devon & Cornwall or Yorkshire!

Then you could have a proper contest to see who could "batter the bejesus" out of who

Ireland night still win, but at least the comparisons would be farer and easier to calculate.

Wales would come last on those metrics despite being sparsely populated. The Netherlands would score higher than all UK regions despite being much more densely populated.

tonbinn

cgcsb wrote: »

And still Ireland batters the bejesus out of the UK, and the vast majority of countries in the world based on those indicators.

Ireland has one person for every 17 or 18 the UK has to look after even though our country is 50 to 60% of the size of the UK. There'd be sometthing wrong if we weren't miles ahead on all the macro-indicators and we're not. Ahead on some but behind on others. But the overall point stands that to suggest we forfeit our independence is ridiculous although there are many in very powerful positions who lean that way whether they admit it or not. You need only look at the grip they have on mainstream media. Most of the negaivity regarding our little republic is the comparison between what we are and what we could be with a bit of integrity and civic responsibility in government rather than the decades of me féinism and gobsheenism that we've had. Don't let anyone pull the wool over you and tell you we are a rich, successful country. We were bust through mindless greed and treason 10 years ago and borrowed 67,000,000,000 euros to pay for the glutony. And that's why 2 full time working, degree educated parents with no childcare and no health care can't afford a biscuit tin to live in and will spend their entire lives handing over 50% of their salaries for the inflated rents of the private landlord class. Or emigrate- that is the choice for many. The country doesn't work and is dysfunctional in many, many ways.

tonbinn

Granadino wrote: »

Depends on what type of Brit you mean. Same as I would avoid a holiday resort full of Irish pubs and their Irish clientele. e.g. Costa del Sol. Not my thing, but each to their own. I wouldn't avoid "the Irish" on holidays, but I have no interest in going to English bars or Irish bars and having fry ups etc.
We are culturally more similar to British than we are to French, Spanish, Danes, etc. There are differences in Ireland between city and rural, east and west, the same as there are between northern and southern English.
But in general, we're culturally anglo saxon.

Speak for yourself, I''m Gael to the core. There is a general Anglofilia based in Doblin by virtue of history but the further west, south or north you go (aside from the contrived britishness of unionist areas), the less of a factor it becomes. There is certainly a split in the country between the Anglofiles and the Anglophobes but you would think the latter would have died away after a century of independence. Some are dedicated little Brits it woud seem.

sheesh

the solution to the problems you outlined is to go and join the UK?

good solution