Is 2021 a write off?

SafeSurfer

joe40 wrote: »

Our ICU depts are full of people with the same disease. That is unprecedented in modern times.
But yeah a virus with no symptoms...

Nice conceit. I never said the virus had no symptoms. I said for the vast, vast majority of people there are no symptoms and an even tinier number become ill. 86% of people with Covid in UK have no symptoms.

https://www.google.ie/amp/s/www.news-medical.net/amp/news/20201009/86-percent-of-the-UKs-COVID-19-patients-have-no-symptoms.aspx

wexfordman2

SafeSurfer wrote: »

Do you ever get the feeling that we are not being told the full story? It’s an unprecedented global response to a virus with no symptoms or illness for the vast, vast majority of those infected.
Are countries committing Hari Kari on their citizens to prolong the lives of the, mainly, already old and sick?

Remember these are governments that still allow cigarettes to be sold despite the WHO reporting them causing over 8 million deaths a year.

Do I ever get that feeling ?

No, and neither rides a friend if mine, whose entire household caught it, including both if her parents. Her father passed within a few days, her mother is now in hospital.

This, despite an unprecedented lockdown and action to contain the spread of the virus.

Anyone who doesn't think this is real is a nut case

deckie66

I assume that the impact of the virus will be minimal from May onwards.

Apart from the vaccines there is a triple benefit of warm summer weather

- people congregating and socialising outdoors rather than inside
- evaporation of droplets makes the virus less transmissible
- vitamin D from sunlight reduces likelyhood of severe infection

PCeeeee

Mr. Karate wrote: »

We'll have to move Countries at this rate to enjoy normality. We can Switzerland to the Countries revolting against lockdowns. Apparently they intend to hold a referendum to strip the Govt of its powers to impose more lockdowns.

They're holding a referendum to repeal the 2020 Covid Act. In June. Less of a revolt than democracy in action.

SafeSurfer

wexfordman2 wrote: »

Do I ever get that feeling ?

No, and neither rides a friend if mine, whose entire household caught it, including both if her parents. Her father passed within a few days, her mother is now in hospital.

This, despite an unprecedented lockdown and action to contain the spread of the virus.

Anyone who doesn't think this is real is a nut case

I don’t think the virus is not real. I am postulating that there is potentially something about the virus. Perhaps it’s long term consequences which is leading governments to destroy millions of jobs and large parts of the economy.
8 million die annually from tobacco but governments have not banned tobacco due to arguments about the economy and personal freedom.

IngazZagni

[Deleted User] wrote: »

Ok, then the EU needs to up its game. And the government. And is that the reason anyway? We will see how the government does when we get enough vaccines. Theres always the Chinese and Russian vaccines.

Yes. The EU vaccine order is clear. The reason exact timeliness can't be given is because we are still waiting for approval on certain vaccines and of course if one is refused then it will affect the schedule. There will always be production delays too but a lot of that should be factored into the timeline.

The Irish Government's task is to be able to administer the vaccines as quick as we get them. That will be tested late spring, early summer. With the generous deal to GP's and pharmacies this should be manageable.

Probes

SafeSurfer wrote: »

Nice conceit. I never said the virus had no symptoms. I said for the vast, vast majority of people there are no symptoms and an even tinier number become ill. 86% of people with Covid in UK have no symptoms.

https://www.google.ie/amp/s/www.news-medical.net/amp/news/20201009/86-percent-of-the-UKs-COVID-19-patients-have-no-symptoms.aspx

I just read the first couple of paragraphs to know that what you claim is not true. The article says 86% of people aren't presenting with classic virus symptoms at the time of a positive test. It's well known that Covid presents itself with widely varying conditions from the outset. So many of those tested will have non-classic symptoms and then will develop moderate to severe disease. The real number of asymptomatic infections is around 18%.

People who have treatable cancer are not just rubbish to disregard. Just because someone is older does not mean their life should be forfeit - most of us will grow older and most of us will require an empathetic younger generation to look after us too. I just don't know what people are thinking when they suggest sick or old people are not worth the trouble.

landofthetree

We are going to end up begging the Brits for vaccines because of EU incompetence

PokeHerKing

SafeSurfer wrote: »

I don’t think the virus is not real. I am postulating that there is potentially something about the virus. Perhaps it’s long term consequences which is leading governments to destroy millions of jobs and large parts of the economy.
8 million die annually from tobacco but governments have not banned tobacco due to arguments about the economy and personal freedom.

Ther is no surge capacity in our health system. So thousands of people getting covid a day means hundreds of daily Hospitalisations. Which means overrun and eventually broken system.

Nurses and doctors cant "catch" cancer/heart attack or stroke from patients like they can covid. Stop looking for conspiracy, just engage your brain.

Coybig_

Probes wrote: »

I just read the first couple of paragraphs to know that what you claim is not true. It's classic virus symptoms at the time of a positive test. It's well known that Covid presents itself with widely varying conditions from the outset. So many of those tested will have non-classic symptoms and then will develop moderate to severe disease. The real number of asymptomatic infections is around 18%.

People who have treatable cancer are not just rubbish to disregard. Just because someone is older does not mean their life should be forfeit - most of us will grow older and most of us will require an empathetic younger generation to look after us too. I just don't know what people are thinking when they suggest sick or old people are not worth the trouble.

Would you think there might be a small difference between the classical definition of 'looking after old people' and the current state of play where literally everything is being forcefully sacrificed for them. Where the lives of the young are being quite literally ruined at the moment in every conceivable way to support the elderly?

Just wondering if you were going to continue to be completely disingenuous in your comments?

IngazZagni

landofthetree wrote: »

We are going to end up begging the Brits for vaccines because of EU incompetence

Comments like these are pathetic and do nothing to contribute to the thread.

What matters is getting vaccines to 75% plus of the population. Come September we should be at that stage at least. If not and there's some failure at an EU level then feel free to have your rant then.

breadmonster

yeah its a write off now alright no plan b after the astra "production issues"
Its every country for itself now US and UK will supply there own countries first (cant blame them really). The EU messed up with biontech didn't order enough and put too much faith in the ones not approved yet. Funny thing is it seems to be the best one out of the lot of them. its first come first served so while we were all trying to agree a policy to save money all the other non eu countries got there orders in first now its going to cost 10 times the amount with lockdowns :pac:

Can only go the 0 covid route now ground the planes

Probes

Coybig_ wrote: »

Would you think there might be a small difference between the classical definition of 'looking after old people' and the current state of play where literally everything is being forcefully sacrificed for them. Where the lives of the young are being quite literally ruined at the moment in every conceivable way to support the elderly?

Just wondering if you were going to continue to be completely disingenuous in your comments?

What was disingenuous about my comment exactly?

As for your other question, if we want a functioning health care system to take care of the needs of everyone then we need some way of minimising the spread of the virus until we have vaccines or medication that can take pressure off the system. It's pretty clear now that half measures haven't been successful in controlling the virus, the options appear to be lockdown or border control with quarantine.

Coybig_

Probes wrote: »

What was disingenuous about my comment exactly?

As for your other question, if we want a functioning health care system to take care of the needs of everyone then we need some way of minimising the spread of the virus until we have vaccines or medication that can take pressure off the system. It's pretty clear now that half measures haven't been successful in controlling the virus, the options appear to be lockdown or border control with quarantine.

The fact that you tried to equate the current situation with a future where you would want to be looked after as an old person, knowing that that future would very likely not involve what is being demanded of the youth today.

The granny killer rhetoric gets quite tiresome when you consider what is being sacrificed to maintain lockdown.

landofthetree

IngazZagni wrote: »

Comments like these are pathetic and do nothing to contribute to the thread.

What matters is getting vaccines to 75% plus of the population. Come September we should be at that stage at least. If not and there's some failure at an EU level then feel free to have your rant then.

Covid-19 vaccinations for people over the age of 70 may be delayed due to issues with the supply of the AstraZeneca coronavirus vaccine, the Taoiseach has said.

IngazZagni

landofthetree wrote: »

Covid-19 vaccinations for people over the age of 70 may be delayed due to issues with the supply of the AstraZeneca coronavirus vaccine, the Taoiseach has said.

Whats you point? EU incompetence? But this is the UK funded vaccine which is being delayed.

Delays and bumps in the road are inevitable with the biggest vaccine rollout in history. The long term timeline is hopefully on the conservative side to take into account some of these inevitable problems.

Probes

Coybig_ wrote: »

The fact that you tried to equate the current situation with a future where you would want to be looked after as an old person, knowing that that future would very likely not involve what is being demanded of the youth today.

The granny killer rhetoric gets quite tiresome when you consider what is being sacrificed to maintain lockdown.

Right, a small part of my whole argument. And the other points?



Personally I don't think it's disingenuous at all. We don't know what the future holds and we have to try to help each other, not turn our backs on a whole section of society. That means some hardship for everyone. The government should be doing all they can to aid us in that.

aido79

SafeSurfer wrote: »

I don’t think the virus is not real. I am postulating that there is potentially something about the virus. Perhaps it’s long term consequences which is leading governments to destroy millions of jobs and large parts of the economy.
8 million die annually from tobacco but governments have not banned tobacco due to arguments about the economy and personal freedom.

Those 8 million people are all looking for hospital beds at the same time.

SnuggyBear

Coybig_ wrote: »

The fact that you tried to equate the current situation with a future where you would want to be looked after as an old person, knowing that that future would very likely not involve what is being demanded of the youth today.

The granny killer rhetoric gets quite tiresome when you consider what is being sacrificed to maintain lockdown.

People seem to think an 85 years old persons life has the same value as an 18 year old. Sorry but they don't and this time last year no one would have given them a second thought. Now its a tragedy if they die. They are in a nursing home for reason.
College students missing out on a very special time in their life for a virus that they wouldn't even know they had. They can't get this time back.

Probes

SnuggyBear wrote: »

People seem to think an 85 years old persons life has the same value as an 18 year old. Sorry but they don't and this time last year no one would have given them a second thought. Now its a tragedy if they die. They are in a nursing home for reason.
College students missing out on a very special time in their life for a virus that they wouldn't even know they had. They can't get this time back.

When the argument is always diluted to mortality of 85+ year olds then that is certainly disingenuous.


What about the pressures on the health system which are acutely apparent right now? What about long terms effects of having the disease and the pressures that will put on the health system in the future? What about the 30 year diagnosed with a treatable cancer who either has to risk contracting covid in the hospital or even worse, cannot get cancer treatment because the hospital is overrun? There are many more aspects to the pandemic than mortality in 85+ year olds.

Cerveza

Cerveza wrote: »

The country will be back open by summer.

I wish! 2021 is gone

Sierra Oscar

IngazZagni wrote: »

Whats you point? EU incompetence? But this is the UK funded vaccine which is being delayed.

Delays and bumps in the road are inevitable with the biggest vaccine rollout in history. The long term timeline is hopefully on the conservative side to take into account some of these inevitable problems.

Blaming the EU Commission for the AstraZeneca delay is just so silly and really emphasizes peoples continual need to have a scapegoat to blame for the impact the pandemic is having.

AstraZeneca have literally stated the delay is due to an unforeseen production problem. It has absolutely nothing to do with the negotiations with the EU Commission.

pottokblue

Glastonberry 2021 cancelled...

joe40

SafeSurfer wrote: »

Nice conceit. I never said the virus had no symptoms. I said for the vast, vast majority of people there are no symptoms and an even tinier number become ill. 86% of people with Covid in UK have no symptoms.

https://www.google.ie/amp/s/www.news-medical.net/amp/news/20201009/86-percent-of-the-UKs-COVID-19-patients-have-no-symptoms.aspx

It is simple maths, most people do not get serious symptoms but a % do.
With current transmission rates, the % that do get serious symptoms is enough to have a massive impact on ICU. That is with restrictions in place.

joe40

Coybig_ wrote: »

Would you think there might be a small difference between the classical definition of 'looking after old people' and the current state of play where literally everything is being forcefully sacrificed for them. Where the lives of the young are being quite literally ruined at the moment in every conceivable way to support the elderly?

Just wondering if you were going to continue to be completely disingenuous in your comments?

Everything is not "literally sacrificed" and young people lives are not "literally ruined"
This is an extremely difficult time but no need for exaggeration like that.
There is hope of an end in sight.

ShineOn7

They're seeing something in their internal data they don't like

They've been so "schools are safe though!" till now that this really is a last resort to them

https://twitter.com/emma_okelly/status/1352945249421811712

Coybig_

joe40 wrote: »

Everything is not "literally sacrificed" and young people lives are not "literally ruined"
This is an extremely difficult time but no need for exaggeration like that.
There is hope of an end in sight.

I didnt say literally sacrificed, so don't know who you are quoting there. I said forcefully sacrificed, which they are being by the government.

I did say literally ruined and there is no debating that.

No schools.
No college.
Businesses closed never to reopen.
No sports.
No holidays.
Addictions spiralling.
Hundreds of thousands on PUP and out of work.
No gyms, pubs, concerts, matches.
Mental health worsening.
No weddings.
Not allowed to meet people - the time in peoples life when they find their other half is passing by. What if you are a single woman at age 37 and want kids for example?

Nobody is ever getting this time back. This is all being sacrificed for people who are at the end of their life, who have had all these experiences already.

I'm not saying these people should be sacrificed so that young people can have some sort of passable existence, but it continually baffles me that there are a significant amount of people who ignore all of the above, and rush to condemn anyone who thinks we need to have a grown up conversation at some point.

And all the questions that result from this too - are the people who dont do a leaving certificate going to be ill prepared for college, for example? What effects will that have. Just one of a thousand questions.

People will never get this time back.

If you're a young person in this country, what do you have to look forward to right now? How is your life not ruined?

basill

SafeSurfer wrote: »

Do you ever get the feeling that we are not being told the full story? It’s an unprecedented global response to a virus with no symptoms or illness for the vast, vast majority of those infected.
Are countries committing Hari Kari on their citizens to prolong the lives of the, mainly, already old and sick?

Remember these are governments that still allow cigarettes to be sold despite the WHO reporting them causing over 8 million deaths a year.

https://www.hpsc.ie/a-z/respiratory/coronavirus/novelcoronavirus/surveillance/epidemiologyofcovid-19inirelandweeklyreports/COVID-19%20Weekly%20Report_%20Week%202_%20Slidset_HPSC%20-%20Website.pdf

Page 25 is where the answer lies. Youngest death is 17. Oldest 105!!! Median 83, mean age 81. Deaths in people under 64 years of age is single digit. Then there are the possibles and probables etc etc. 85.8% of the deaths they say had underlying health conditions.

The old and the vulnerable with underlying conditions should be cocooning awaiting their vaccine plain and simple. That is the solution to reduce the deaths. The deaths going through care homes shows an abject failure of the health system. Another bunch passed away in a single home in Lusk from reports in todays papers.

The lockdowns are simply a cover up as there is zero appetite within government to fix the health system. It is well reported that Ireland is way behind the average number of ICU beds across Europe. Each lockdown we expect the government to be getting ahead of the game and each time we come out we find that all they did was play catch up and there is very little done of substance to plan for future surges.

begbysback

Am I the only one who came into this thread hoping the op was an accountant?

joe40

Coybig_ wrote: »

I didnt say literally sacrificed, so don't know who you are quoting there. I said forcefully sacrificed, which they are being by the government.

I did say literally ruined and there is no debating that.

No schools.
No college.
Businesses closed never to reopen.
No sports.
No holidays.
Addictions spiralling.
Hundreds of thousands on PUP and out of work.
No gyms, pubs, concerts, matches.
Mental health worsening.
No weddings.
Not allowed to meet people - the time in peoples life when they find their other half is passing by. What if you are a single woman at age 37 and want kids for example?

Nobody is ever getting this time back. This is all being sacrificed for people who are at the end of their life, who have had all these experiences already.

I'm not saying these people should be sacrificed so that young people can have some sort of passable existence, but it continually baffles me that there are a significant amount of people who ignore all of the above, and rush to condemn anyone who thinks we need to have a grown up conversation at some point.

And all the questions that result from this too - are the people who dont do a leaving certificate going to be ill prepared for college, for example? What effects will that have. Just one of a thousand questions.

People will never get this time back.

If you're a young person in this country, what do you have to look forward to right now? How is your life not ruined?

I have 2 teenage children 15 and 17, their lives have not been ruined
Death or long term illness now that can ruin lives.
Everything else will come back eventually, I'm not saying it's not difficult but very few are having their "lives ruined" as a result of restrictions. That's just hyperbole

No holidays or no gyms = ruined lives, seriously. That's from your list