Is 2021 a write off?

growleaves

joe40 wrote: »

I have 2 teenage children 15 and 17, their lives have not been ruined
Death or long term illness now that can ruin lives.
Everything else will come back eventually, I'm not saying it's not difficult but very few are having their "lives ruined" as a result of restrictions. That's just hyperbole

No holidays or no gyms = ruined lives, seriously. That's from your list

I think its more the totality of the list - a very incomplete list to which we could keep adding.

All team sports banned
Amateur theatre banned
AA meetings are illegal
Etc.

The "eventually" could take years.

Coybig_

joe40 wrote: »

I have 2 teenage children 15 and 17, their lives have not been ruined
Death or long term illness now that can ruin lives.
Everything else will come back eventually, I'm not saying it's not difficult but very few are having their "lives ruined" as a result of restrictions. That's just hyperbole

No holidays or no gyms = ruined lives, seriously. That's from your list

All of those measures simultaneously is what does it.

Clearly gyms alone being closed would be hyperbolic.

That list is not even exhaustive.

And seriously, when people bring up anecdotal evidence as if it were proof of anything? It's not.

joe40

growleaves wrote: »

I think its more the totality of the list - a very incomplete list to which we could keep adding.

All team sports banned
Amateur theatre banned
AA meetings are illegal
Etc.

The "eventually" could take years.

I agree it will take a long time to get back to normal but the current numbers show that even slight easing of restrictions resulted in massive spike in numbers.
We were far from normal in Dec but virus still got a strong foothold very quickly.
I'm not for one minute saying restrictions aren't difficult but right now it is patently obvious they are necessary.
With a vaccine, I think strict restrictions for a few more weeks months is preferable to rampant virus. Neither option is easy, absolutely.

GazzaL

Coybig_ wrote: »

I didnt say literally sacrificed, so don't know who you are quoting there. I said forcefully sacrificed, which they are being by the government.

I did say literally ruined and there is no debating that.

No schools.
No college.
Businesses closed never to reopen.
No sports.
No holidays.
Addictions spiralling.
Hundreds of thousands on PUP and out of work.
No gyms, pubs, concerts, matches.
Mental health worsening.
No weddings.
Not allowed to meet people - the time in peoples life when they find their other half is passing by. What if you are a single woman at age 37 and want kids for example?

Nobody is ever getting this time back. This is all being sacrificed for people who are at the end of their life, who have had all these experiences already.

I'm not saying these people should be sacrificed so that young people can have some sort of passable existence, but it continually baffles me that there are a significant amount of people who ignore all of the above, and rush to condemn anyone who thinks we need to have a grown up conversation at some point.

And all the questions that result from this too - are the people who dont do a leaving certificate going to be ill prepared for college, for example? What effects will that have. Just one of a thousand questions.

People will never get this time back.

If you're a young person in this country, what do you have to look forward to right now? How is your life not ruined?

Great post.

And it's very true that people will never get this time back.

SafeSurfer

joe40 wrote: »

Our ICU depts are full of people with the same disease. That is unprecedented in modern times.
But yeah a virus with no symptoms...

Many of the people in ICU are there WITH Covid but they are not there BECAUSE of Covid.
Same with deaths. It measures people who have Covid when they die, not those who die of Covid. If x % of the population have Covid, then y % of the population will have Covid when they die.

You could release figures which show that 20% of people who died in the past month had , hypertension, high blood pressure. Does that mean that 20% of deaths in the past week can be attributed to high blood pressure? Should we fill every news bulletin with what percent of people who die each day had what disease when they died?

joe40

SafeSurfer wrote: »

Many of the people in ICU are there WITH Covid but they are not there BECAUSE of Covid.
Same with deaths. It measures people who have Covid when they die, not those who die of Covid. If x % of the population have Covid, then y % of the population will have Covid when they die.

You could release figures which show that 20% of people who died in the past month had , hypertension, high blood pressure. Does that mean that 20% of deaths in the past week can be attributed to high blood pressure? Should we fill every news bulletin with what percent of people who die each day had what disease when they died?

No many of the people in ICU are there because of covid. The numbers are a function of total cases.
Are some people here seriously suggesting we should reduce restrictions?
To be honest I might have argued the same back in Nov, but for me Dec on has been a game changer. This virus is extremely dangerous and given half a chance it will rapidly spread.
If that happens simple statistics will say people will die unnecessarily.
Only a fool would suggest the restrictions are not difficult or harmful but the alternative would be far worse.

Cerveza

Schools should go back next week along with construction. Open the hospitality after end of next month. Life doesn’t revolve around Covid and particularly the government and nphet.

SafeSurfer

joe40 wrote: »

No many of the people in ICU are there because of covid. The numbers are a function of total cases.
Are some people here seriously suggesting we should reduce restrictions?
To be honest I might have argued the same back in Nov, but for me Dec on has been a game changer. This virus is extremely dangerous and given half a chance it will rapidly spread.
If that happens simple statistics will say people will die unnecessarily.
Only a fool would suggest the restrictions are not difficult or harmful but the alternative would be far worse.

Would you agree that the number of people in hospital BECAUSE of Covid 19 is not reported on and the number of deaths BECAUSE of Covid 19 is not reported.

You say the virus is extremely dangerous based on knowing how many people had it when they died rather than how many people died FROM it.

You claim that MANY of the people in ICU are there BECAUSE of Covid-19. Can you give a figure?

In that case we should be even more concerned about human papilloma virus.

joe40

SafeSurfer wrote: »

Would you agree that the number of people in hospital BECAUSE of Covid 19 is not reported on and the number of deaths BECAUSE of Covid 19 is not reported.

You say the virus is extremely dangerous based on knowing how many people had it when they died rather than how many people died FROM it.

You claim that MANY of the people in ICU are there BECAUSE of Covid-19. Can you give a figure?

In that case we should be even more concerned about human papilloma virus.

I'm not claiming anything I'm simply saying what Irish health authorities are saying, what the WHO is saying, what virtually every global health authority including America and Europe are saying.

You obviously know better.

BredonWimsey

SafeSurfer wrote: »

Would you agree that the number of people in hospital BECAUSE of Covid 19 is not reported on and the number of deaths BECAUSE of Covid 19 is not reported.

You say the virus is extremely dangerous based on knowing how many people had it when they died rather than how many people died FROM it.

You claim that MANY of the people in ICU are there BECAUSE of Covid-19. Can you give a figure?

In that case we should be even more concerned about human papilloma virus.

BECAUSE introduces clauses of cause and reason. It is a subordinating conjunction. This means that the clause it introduces is a subordinate clause, which needs a main clause to make it complete. We use a comma when the subordinate clause comes before the main clause


Because of is a two-word preposition meaning ‘as a result of’:
Because of the rain, the tennis match was stopped.
There were so many people in the shop because of the sale.

We use from to show the time or point in time when something starts:
Tickets for the concert are on sale from Monday.

SO WHETHER SOMETHING OCCURS BECAUSE OF OR FROM - WHATS THE DIFFERENCE - THIS ARGUMENT IS FRIVOLOUS

SafeSurfer

BredonWimsey wrote: »

BECAUSE introduces clauses of cause and reason. It is a subordinating conjunction. This means that the clause it introduces is a subordinate clause, which needs a main clause to make it complete. We use a comma when the subordinate clause comes before the main clause


Because of is a two-word preposition meaning ‘as a result of’:
Because of the rain, the tennis match was stopped.
There were so many people in the shop because of the sale.

We use from to show the time or point in time when something starts:
Tickets for the concert are on sale from Monday.

SO WHETHER SOMETHING OCCURS BECAUSE OF OR FROM - WHATS THE DIFFERENCE - THIS ARGUMENT IS FRIVOLOUS

Wow. That’s an unconvincing argument.

It isn’t a case of because of vs. From

It’s a case of with vs. from.

BredonWimsey

SafeSurfer wrote: »

Wow. That’s an unconvincing argument.

It isn’t a case of because of vs. From

It’s a case of with vs. from.

i didnt make an argument. i am simply pointing out how frivolous to make an argument by pontificating BECAUSE of COVID and FROM COVID. but look you probably have all day to analyse these finer nuances. I have other things to do. I just wanted to log on and see if there were any interesting discussions happening but I'm afraid I have been left disappointed with the calibre. Good Day

SafeSurfer

BredonWimsey wrote: »

i didnt make an argument. i am simply pointing out how frivolous to make an argument by pontificating BECAUSE of COVID and FROM COVID. but look you probably have all day to analyse these finer nuances. I have other things to do. I just wanted to log on and see if there were any interesting discussions happening but I'm afraid I have been left disappointed with the calibre. Good Day

You are still misrepresenting what I said.

Covid deaths are reported as if the deceased died from Covid when it is more accurate to say that they had Covid when they died.
If everyone who has heart disease at the time of their death was reported as having died FROM heart disease irrespective of cause of death it would be an inaccurate measure of how many people died from heart disease.

BredonWimsey

SafeSurfer wrote: »

You are still misrepresenting what I said.

Covid deaths are reported as if the deceased died from Covid when it is more accurate to say that they had Covid when they died.
If everyone who has heart disease at the time of their death was reported as having died FROM heart disease irrespective of cause of death it would be an inaccurate measure of how many people died from heart disease.

ok - i understand your point now thanks and yes good point

Sam Hain

Coybig_ wrote: »

I didnt say literally sacrificed, so don't know who you are quoting there. I said forcefully sacrificed, which they are being by the government.

I did say literally ruined and there is no debating that.

No schools.
No college.
Businesses closed never to reopen.
No sports.
No holidays.
Addictions spiralling.
Hundreds of thousands on PUP and out of work.
No gyms, pubs, concerts, matches.
Mental health worsening.
No weddings.
Not allowed to meet people - the time in peoples life when they find their other half is passing by. What if you are a single woman at age 37 and want kids for example?

Nobody is ever getting this time back. This is all being sacrificed for people who are at the end of their life, who have had all these experiences already.

I'm not saying these people should be sacrificed so that young people can have some sort of passable existence, but it continually baffles me that there are a significant amount of people who ignore all of the above, and rush to condemn anyone who thinks we need to have a grown up conversation at some point.

And all the questions that result from this too - are the people who dont do a leaving certificate going to be ill prepared for college, for example? What effects will that have. Just one of a thousand questions.

People will never get this time back.

If you're a young person in this country, what do you have to look forward to right now? How is your life not ruined?

Cheers, that dramatic list gave me a good laugh.

Gael23

Being optimistic schools won’t be back until after Easter

aido79

Cerveza wrote: »

Schools should go back next week along with construction. Open the hospitality after end of next month. Life doesn’t revolve around Covid and particularly the government and nphet.

What if you're wrong and the health system is overrun and covid and non covid patients die unnecessarily? Do the government just issue an apology?

SafeSurfer

aido79 wrote: »

What if you're wrong and the health system is overrun and covid and non covid patients die unnecessarily? Do the government just issue an apology?

Politics is about balancing competing interests.

We already have a health service where people die unnecessarily because the medicines that would keep them alive are deemed too expensive.

Cerveza

aido79 wrote: »

What if you're wrong and the health system is overrun and covid and non covid patients die unnecessarily? Do the government just issue an apology?

No one can save the stupid. It’s because of them and their incompetence to basic guidelines that we are in the situation we are in. Very easy to be blaming variants etc but the writing is on the wall.

aido79

SafeSurfer wrote: »

Politics is about balancing competing interests.

We already have a health service where people die unnecessarily because the medicines that would keep them alive are deemed too expensive.

That's a completely separate issue and unless you're talking about medication that helps with covid it's not relevant to this thread.

The government are trying to avoid a situation where someone who has a heart attack, an accident at work, a car accident etc can't be treated because the hospital doesn't have the staff or beds available because there are so many covid19 patients needing attention.

aido79

Cerveza wrote: »

No one can save the stupid. It’s because of them and their incompetence to basic guidelines that we are in the situation we are in. Very easy to be blaming variants etc but the writing is on the wall.

What should they have done in your opinion?

DraftDodger

Cerveza wrote: »

Schools should go back next week along with construction. Open the hospitality after end of next month. Life doesn’t revolve around Covid and particularly the government and nphet.

Jim O'Callaghan??

Dempo1

Pretty grim day apart from a reduction in new case number's.

A. Meehole interviewed by BOC, Frank and rare, honest interview albeit pretty bleak predictions on restrictions.

B. Colm Henry, clearly a man under intense pressure, very tetchy interview on Katie Hannons show, pretty bleak generally.

C. Nursing unions on the war path, looking fir better PPE, Groundhog day, ironically HSE management saying they approved it, unions saying management say no. Pretty absurd situation.

D. News that the game changing new Vaccine awaiting approval will be in much less supply than planned (40% of original promised). Preety silly to be hedging bets on non approved and yet to be made available vaccines.

E. UK variant appartly has a higher mortality rate.

F. And to finish the day, yet more Q Jumping re vaccines, seems admin staff got vaccinated last weekend despite front line staff still waiting. Pretty bizzare given directive during the week and on the back of the debacle at the maternity hospitals.

O, almost forgot, schools opening in February? Not on your nelly and leaving cert looking seriously unlikely.

2021 write off? At this rate 2022 not looking great either.

tom1ie

People talking about loosening restrictions are bananas!!
We relax restrictions we give the virus more of a chance to spread and mutate, which possibly makes the vaccines less effective.
How the hell people don’t see this is beyond me.

tom1ie

Gael23 wrote: »

Being optimistic schools won’t be back until after Easter

I’d agree with this. Can’t see schools back until after paddy’s day. It’s then only a week and 4 school days until Easter. Easter Monday is the 5th so they’ll be back the 6th April.

tom1ie

Barbara Tight Ram wrote: »

Only way loosening restrictions works is if there is serious policy change in government. They are already writing off the first 5 months of this year minimum.

But what would the policy changes be?
Restrictions need to be tighter not what we have now.

Silentcorner

tom1ie wrote: »

People talking about loosening restrictions are bananas!!
We relax restrictions we give the virus more of a chance to spread and mutate, which possibly makes the vaccines less effective.
How the hell people don’t see this is beyond me.

What if lockdowns were creating or encouraging the mutations?

tom1ie

Silentcorner wrote: »

What if lockdowns were creating or encouraging the mutations?

Ok, as in encouraging house parties etc? Would that not be replicated in other countries

Silentcorner

tom1ie wrote: »

Ok, as in encouraging house parties etc? Would that not be replicated in other countries

No, I mean viruses mutate all the time, including this one.

Previous flu virus mutate twice a year...I'm guessing the mutation is to allow it to survive and in doing so the mutated virus rips through the population again, and again.

So, making it harder for the virus to survive (through lock downs and social distancing) is also encouraging it to mutate to survive.

I have no answer by the way, I am just speculating.

SafeSurfer

aido79 wrote: »

That's a completely separate issue and unless you're talking about medication that helps with covid it's not relevant to this thread.

The government are trying to avoid a situation where someone who has a heart attack, an accident at work, a car accident etc can't be treated because the hospital doesn't have the staff or beds available because there are so many covid19 patients needing attention.

It is not a completely separate issue. Not everyone who is sick can be cured or even treated. Ask the kids with scoliosis if they were being looked after before Covid.

Have a look at the data for heart attacks, etc during lockdown. People suffering from non Covid issues were presenting late and dying because they were terrified of seeking care.