Let's take a moment to talk about taxation

PommieBast

boldrevolt wrote: »

and most people don't know that due to the nature of how a text message is sent
it actually costs mobile operators nothing to let you do this.
so one could also argue charging for text messages are a scam

Reminds me of a proposal to tax SMS messages.

bonjurkes

Can I bring up how silly is PUP being subject to Income Tax, because it counts as income?

wiggle16

Eric Cartman wrote: »

Rent seekers ? If you mean landlords they are probably the most highly taxed business owners jn all of Ireland

You must be having a laugh. Like an actual riot of a laugh.

For a start, the number of landlords who actually declare their income versus those who don't is a very open question (LOL). If you have a PAYE employment there is no chance of not paying your tax. Landlords as a group are known for having poor tax compliance.

That is not at all to say that there are not many decent, tax compliant landlords, but as a sector they are known for commonly underdeclaring their income.

For those who accurately declare their income, they can write multiple expenses off of their income and there are many reliefs and incentives available to them - which are not available to a person who works in a PAYE employment only.

This idea of the poor, hard-done-by landlord does not wash for an instant.

wiggle16

bonjurkes wrote: »

Can I bring up how silly is PUP being subject to Income Tax, because it counts as income?

Like jobseekers benefit, illness benefit, maternity benefit and a plethora of other social welfare payments, it is a taxable source of income.

bonjurkes

wiggle16 wrote: »

Like jobseekers benefit, illness benefit, maternity benefit and a plethora of other social welfare payments, it is a taxable source of income.

Yes but it's "pandemic" payment, it's an exceptional case.

Eric Cartman

wiggle16 wrote: »

You must be having a laugh. Like an actual riot of a laugh.

For a start, the number of landlords who actually declare their income versus those who don't is a very open question (LOL). If you have a PAYE employment there is no chance of not paying your tax. Landlords as a group are known for having poor tax compliance.

That is not at all to say that there are not many decent, tax compliant landlords, but as a sector they are known for commonly underdeclaring their income.

For those who accurately declare their income, they can write multiple expenses off of their income and there are many reliefs and incentives available to them - which are not available to a person who works in a PAYE employment only.

This idea of the poor, hard-done-by landlord does not wash for an instant.

Ahh the usual ‘call revenue’ excuse on landlords, any landlord on the prtb is tax compliant , most landlords are tax compliant and its a fantasy to think theyre not, revenue arent a gormless bunch, they watch landlords like hawks

wiggle16

bonjurkes wrote: »

Yes but it's "pandemic" payment, it's an exceptional case.

I get that and would agree, but it's been costing a couple of hundred million a week and is far more generous than standard social welfare payments. I've been working and paying tax throughout the pandemic and I only come out with about €100 quid more than the PUP payment, and I work full time - why should I be taxed on my pay when I worked for it, while others shouldn't be taxed when they didn't work for it? That's not a criticism of people on PUP, they don't have a choice, but those of us who have been able to continue working shouldn't have to foot the bill for 2020's tax take on our own.

In any case, many people will not end up with tax bills because their unused credits from April to year end (in many cases) will more than cover any liability to tax on PUP. Those who do will have it collected out of their credits for a year or two depending how much PUP they got. I don't think that's unfair or penal myself.

bonjurkes

wiggle16 wrote: »

I get that and would agree, but it's been costing a couple of hundred million a week and is far more generous than standard social welfare payments. I've been working and paying tax throughout the pandemic and I only come out with about €100 quid more than the PUP payment, and I work full time - why should I be taxed on my pay when I worked for it, while others shouldn't be taxed when they didn't work for it? That's not a criticism of people on PUP, they don't have a choice, but those of us who have been able to continue working shouldn't have to foot the bill for 2020's tax take on our own.

In any case, many people will not end up with tax bills because their unused credits from April to year end (in many cases) will more than cover any liability to tax on PUP. Those who do will have it collected out of their credits for a year or two depending how much PUP they got. I don't think that's unfair or penal myself.

Fair point, didn't thought like that actually, thanks

wiggle16

revenue arent a gormless bunch

I am well aware of that

Eric Cartman wrote: »

any landlord on the prtb is tax compliant , most landlords are tax compliant and its a fantasy to think theyre not, [...]

I can assure you that the above is most certainly not the case.

IAMAMORON

wiggle16 wrote: »

why should I be taxed on my pay when I worked for it, while others shouldn't be taxed when they didn't work for it?

Welcome to the real world - where people pay taxes.

wiggle16

IAMAMORON wrote: »

Welcome to the real world - where people pay taxes.

God, the timing of the last two posts was beautiful.

Wanderer78

do some of you folks ever get bored of dole bashing threads, and do any of you actually learn anything from them?

Donald Trump

wiggle16 wrote: »

I am well aware of that



And as such I can assure you that the above is most certainly not the case.

I'm no fan of landlords, especially the amateur "someone else should be covering the entire net cost of my mortgage for me so I get a free house" types you frequently come across.


At the same time, they are often in a vulnerable position in terms of rights of the tenants and I think it would be a particularly silly landlord to leave themselves open to begin reported to revenue by a tenant. Or even blackmailed by the same tenant.....you'd need to be collecting cash into the hand every week, but even then you wouldn't be 100% safe from being caught.


Does it happen? I'm sure it does.

If I was a landlord would I take the risk of leaving myself open? Definitely not.

Beasty

Wanderer78 wrote: »

...again growing deficits are relatively fine, public debt can be rolled over indefinitely, without it causing any significant issues, this is common across the globe, as long as the debts are serviceable, everything is fine.

the issue with pensions is the fact, living costs are continually rising, particularly in relation to property and land, therefore preventing younger generations from getting involved with pension funds earlier

I remember when mortgage interest rates were in the teens.

A lot of people seem to think low interest rates are here to stay, but a decade ago no-one thought they would stay so low for so long. More importantly though, low interest rates decimate pensions further. There is a "happy medium" we experienced before the crash, but that requires us to pay significant amounts of interest. This idea of letting future generations pay for our debts is totally inequitable in my book.

Eric Cartman

Wanderer78 wrote: »

do some of you folks ever get bored of dole bashing threads, and do any of you actually learn anything from them?

I wont get bored of them ever, Every 2 months on the 19th I have to give revenue thousands of euro, and one a year more thousands Ive more than earned my right to give out about the people who squander that money from HSE middle management , NGO’s , foreign aid, councils wasting money, halting sites, social housing, social welfare. If the government spends a euro on something ill give out about it

PommieBast

bonjurkes wrote: »

Can I bring up how silly is PUP being subject to Income Tax, because it counts as income?

The real screaming is going to come when the deferred tax bills for those on the Temporary Wage Subsidy scheme start coming through.
Says a lot about taxation levels that despite a 20% gross pay cut my nett pay actually increased...

wiggle16

Donald Trump wrote: »

I'm no fan of landlords, especially the amateur "someone else should be covering the entire net cost of my mortgage for me so I get a free house" types you frequently come across.


At the same time, they are often in a vulnerable position in terms of rights of the tenants and I think it would be a particularly silly landlord to leave themselves open to begin reported to revenue by a tenant. Or even blackmailed by the same tenant.....you'd need to be collecting cash into the hand every week, but even then you wouldn't be 100% safe from being caught.


Does it happen? I'm sure it does.

If I was a landlord would I take the risk of leaving myself open? Definitely not.

I agree in that respect, and I should point out that I don't mean to say that most landlords are taxdodgers by any stretch, but since it is a self-assessed income with little regulation compared to other forms of self-assessed income, it attracts poor compliance because the state simply does not have the resources to audit every landlord. And so there are many landlords who either underdeclare or do not declare their income and I would posit that that happens with greater frequency than in most, but by no means all, other sectors.

Landlords are vulnerable in terms of rights in many situations that's true, and it's also true for tenants in many situations, but that's a different kettle of fish to taxation in fairness.

Eric Cartman

Eric Cartman wrote: »

+1 , at 50k and especially 100k it shows just how abhorrently disgusting our tax rates are

Are there many European countries that are much cheaper? Very quick google shows take home would be €61.5k here, €52.75k in Germany (that's with health insurance paid of about €4.5k) and €58.8k in Holland. Even in California it would be around €69k before property tax or health insurance.

Mad_maxx

Geuze wrote: »

Anecdotal example, retired couple, both over 70


48-54k combined income
Under 10% direct tax

In return for approx 8-10% direct tax on 48k approx, they get:

two full med cards
two FTP
free TV licence
subsidised elec 35pm 420 pa


They have >250k on deposit, and >500k assets


No politician wants to change any of this.

they dont because there are no votes in it , support for spoiling pensioners is strong across all demographics

Eric Cartman

[Deleted User] wrote: »

Are there many European countries that are much cheaper? Very quick google shows take home would be €61.5k here, €52.75k in Germany (that's with health insurance paid of about €4.5k) and €58.8k in Holland. Even in California it would be around €69k before property tax or health insurance.

How about we dont compare it so massove welfare states, what would it be in the uk or texas or poland

sameoldname

Deleted User wrote: »

Are there many European countries that are much cheaper? Very quick google shows take home would be €61.5k here, €52.75k in Germany (that's with health insurance paid of about €4.5k) and €58.8k in Holland. Even in California it would be around €69k before property tax or health insurance.

This isn't the place for informed discussion so I wouldn't hold out any hope for a decent reply.

I'd laugh when the people who are calling for massive reduction in taxes start seeing how much of their own income is directly or indirectly funded by the redistribution of other peoples taxes.

sameoldname

Eric Cartman wrote: »

How about we dont compare it so massove welfare states, what would it be in the uk or texas or poland

For someone so opposed to welfare it's ironic you seem to want somebody else to do the work for you. How about you do the figures yourself and post them up?

boldrevolt

wiggle16 wrote: »

You don't need a passport, you can't be forced to leave Ireland if you decide not to

Actually you do need a passport.

As so much of society requires you to have I.D.

try getting by without one. good luck

Eric Cartman

Eric Cartman wrote: »

How about we dont compare it so massove welfare states, what would it be in the uk or texas or poland

But we are a massive welfare state.

Geuze

theguzman wrote: »

When they die and pass it on to their heir then the government will swallow a massive share of it. All inheritance tax should be scrapped to a limit of say below €10m.

Zero CAT will be paid.

Three children, so three lifetime allowances of 975k combined, approx.

Geuze

bonjurkes wrote: »

Can I bring up how silly is PUP being subject to Income Tax, because it counts as income?

All social insurance welfare payments are subject to income tax.

JSB
IB Illness benefit
CB Carer benefit
State Pension contributory
IP Invalidity Pension

All are taxable.

jams100

The capital gains tax is the worst one imo, you work hard all your life paying your taxes which aren't low and you leave your kids something and then wham! The death tax strikes. And yes, im well aware there is a threshold

rob316

My biggest issue would be how low the standard rate cut off point is. I really don't think you should be paying 50% tax on anything under 40k.

relax carry on

jams100 wrote: »

The capital gains tax is the worst one imo, you work hard all your life paying your taxes which aren't low and you leave your kids something and then wham! The death tax strikes. And yes, im well aware there is a threshold

It's CAT. CAPITAL ACQUISITION TAX.

https://www.revenue.ie/en/gains-gifts-and-inheritance/cat-thresholds-rates-and-aggregation-rules/index.aspx

relax carry on

rob316 wrote: »

My biggest issue would be how low the standard rate cut off point is. I really don't think you should be paying 50% tax on anything under 40k.

Marginal rate is 40% not 50%.