Let's take a moment to talk about taxation

beggars_bush

wiggle16 wrote: »

Would you go 'way!

I find it nigh-on impossible to believe that your farmer friend is unaware of agricultural relief and that therefore the tax bill you say he faces is non-existent

https://www.revenue.ie/en/tax-professionals/tdm/capital-acquisitions-tax/cat-part11.pdf

Not true
They must hold a farming cert or equivalent

wiggle16

beggars_bush wrote: »

Not true
They must hold a farming cert or equivalent

What is not true?

The cert is explicitly mentioned in the link I included.

jams100

sameoldname wrote: »

The deceased doesn't pay anything, the recipient may have to depending on the amount and relation to the deceased. This was covered a few pages back.

Its the deceased persons money, which they worked for thats being taxed, this is why I'm referring to it as a death tax. Ok the majority won't end up paying it anyway, I just don't think anyone should have to pay this. Even if it doesn't effect me

kalych

jams100 wrote: »

Its the deceased persons money, which they worked for thats being taxed, this is why I'm referring to it as a death tax. Ok the majority won't end up paying it anyway, I just don't think anyone should have to pay this. Even if it doesn't effect me

It's not though. You can put the estate into an escrow account and say sponsor a sports club with a monthly donation and that will attract no tax. Or build a massive statue to yourself. There could be VAT applied on services, but no 'death tax' to speak of.

The tax liability comes only at the point of another PERSON inheriting the money. This very clearly shows that why it's not a 'death tax' and saying that is just plain silly.

sameoldname

jams100 wrote: »

Its the deceased persons money, which they worked for thats being taxed, this is why I'm referring to it as a death tax. Ok the majority won't end up paying it anyway, I just don't think anyone should have to pay this. Even if it doesn't effect me

But it isn't a tax on the deceased, it only gets taxed after it becomes someone else's money. There are methods of ensuring you pay zero taxes on passing on any assets after death eg; spreading it around among multiple people to stay within the tax free limits or even giving any amount to charity.

I can understand why you feel the way you feel but from a societal point of view, somebody passing on a large amount of money to another individual does practically nothing for the country.

Idbatterim

Ireland, a great place to do business! LOL! Rewarding work and the early risers! LoooooooooooooooL!

Huge amounts of workers paying in virtually nothing in income taxes, way less than other eu countries. Effectively no property tax. I believe POD said we will lose up to 2 billion a year in corporation tax a year due to changes shortly. The farcical handling of covid 19 crisis here, insane levels of debt. Another **** show is around the corner, brought to you once again by FFG... Several magic money trees discovered for covid 19. couldnt reward workers during the boom that ended when covid struck, the last two budgets, one obviously before the election year and during a BOOM they had nothing to give away, due to insane cost of hse blackhole and social housing blackhole etc, cant wait for the next few budgets!!!

https://www.rte.ie/news/business/2021/0114/1189720-changes-to-corporate-tax-rules-will-reduce-revenue/

theguzman

theguzman wrote: »

I would start with mandatory redundancies of over 100,000 public and civil sector workers, statues do work than most of them.

Abolish all forms of local government and the senate. Cut bureaucracy in a fire of rules and regulations. I would strengthen law and order and fire every judge and barrister in the country. Every former politician would have his pensions removed. I would immediately stop all payments into the EU, I would expropriate all property and wealth of anyone connected to the FF party, this money would be paid over to the creditors from 2010 and then close the book no more repayment on that.

All healthcare should be privatised, we don't have healthcare in Ireland only a idealogical dogma masquerading as healthcare.

Just going to ignore being called out on your made up story about the farm?

sameoldname

Idbatterim wrote: »

Ireland, a great place to do business! LOL! Rewarding work and the early risers! LoooooooooooooooL!

Huge amounts of workers paying in virtually nothing in income taxes, way less than other eu countries. Effectively no property tax. I believe POD said we will lose up to 2 billion a year in corporation tax a year due to changes shortly. The farcical handling of covid 19 crisis here, insane levels of debt. Another **** show is around the corner, brought to you once again by FFG... Several magic money trees discovered for covid 19. couldnt reward workers during the boom that ended when covid struck, the last two budgets, one obviously before the election year and during a BOOM they had nothing to give away, due to insane cost of hse blackhole and social hosing blackhole etc, cant wait for the next few budgets!!!

https://www.rte.ie/news/business/2021/0114/1189720-changes-to-corporate-tax-rules-will-reduce-revenue/

Didn't you vote for Sinn Fein because you wanted a cheap house or something?

Idbatterim

sameoldname wrote: »

Didn't you vote for Sinn Fein because you wanted a cheap house or something?

A " cheap" house! Lol! Listen, have you run a business? We offer generous pay and staff would turn down extra hours due to losing half their pay over the marginal rate. You're either one of those contributing nothing that defends others being fleeced to facilitate it or a ffg troll!

I did vote sf, my mates who previously voted fg voted sf or have stopped voting. Fg give away free luxury housing paid for by their voters, I sure as fcuk wont qualify for it! Bit of a conundrum isn't it, fg giving nothing to workers, rip off marginal rate to facilitate everybody else getting a ridiculously good deal. Then support rip off housing. At this stage the game is nearly up on the whole sham anyway, nothing left to do but sit back and wait!

CrazyFather1

Idbatterim wrote: »

A " cheap" house! Lol! Listen, have you run a business? We offer generous pay and staff would turn down extra hours due to losing half their pay over the marginal rate. You're either one of those contributing nothing that defends others being fleeced to facilitate it or a ffg troll!

I did vote sf, my mates who previously voted fg voted sf or have stopped voting. Fg give away free luxury housing paid for by their voters, I sure as fcuk wont qualify for it! Bit of a conundrum isn't it, fg giving nothing to workers, rip off marginal rate to facilitate everybody else getting a ridiculously good deal. Then support rip off housing. At this stage the game is nearly up on the whole sham anyway, nothing left to do but sit back and wait!

You did read the SF manifesto? they are changing nothing FG or the rest of the parties are doing. Just giving away more free houses and increasing the tax paid by people working to pay for those houses.
So you are voting to give more of your wages away to the wasters in Ireland. Not sure how that makes sense to anyone with a job? maybe you can explain
The whole SF manifesto is take money from the worker and give to the waster.

sameoldname

Idbatterim wrote: »

A " cheap" house! Lol! Listen, have you run a business? We offer generous pay and staff would turn down extra hours due to losing half their pay over the marginal rate. You're either one of those contributing nothing that defends others being fleeced to facilitate it or a ffg troll!

I did vote sf, my mates who previously voted fg voted sf or have stopped voting. Fg give away free luxury housing paid for by their voters, I sure as fcuk wont qualify for it! Bit of a conundrum isn't it, fg giving nothing to workers, rip off marginal rate to facilitate everybody else getting a ridiculously good deal. Then support rip off housing. At this stage the game is nearly up on the whole sham anyway, nothing left to do but sit back and wait!

You can accuse me of being a troll all you like but here's a link to their proposed budget for this year.
It's mostly large spending increases on welfare and the public sector. Oh, and people on €100,000 a year will get tax increases for good measure. I didn't vote for any of that and I didn't vote for FF or FG either.
So based on your complaints above and reading what SF actually want to deliver, who's trolling?

Idbatterim

CrazyFather1 wrote: »

You did read the SF manifesto? they are changing nothing FG or the rest of the parties are doing. Just giving away more free houses and increasing the tax paid by people working to pay for those houses.
So you are voting to give more of your wages away to the wasters in Ireland. Not sure how that makes sense to anyone with a job? maybe you can explain
The whole SF manifesto is take money from the worker and give to the waster.

Just went through it there, yes that seems to be the case. But it's also the policy of ffg, ffg also support RIP off housing. I'd say would try to address the outrageous lack of taxes, some businesses pay here, like the reits. Effective tax on land hoarding. Going after mid income earners, like a couple on 140k and wanting am extra 3 percent from them is ridiculous. Any parties budget should look at wasteful spending etc. Surpise surprise it doesn't!

Its rock and a hard place, I dont agree with some of what sf ropose. Then again we have years of experience that is the failure of ffg and for all the talk of rewarding workers etc, they have had years in power, boom before covid and... nothing! They pander to the status quo and wasters and they have never and will never receive a vote from them, absolutely incredible!

CrazyFather1

Idbatterim wrote: »

Just went through it there, yes that seems to be the case. But it's also the policy of ffg, ffg also support RIP off housing. I'd say would try to address the outrageous lack of taxes, some businesses pay here, like the reits. Effective tax on land hoarding. Going after mid income earners, like a couple on 140k and wanting am extra 3 percent from them is ridiculous. Any parties budget should look at wasteful spending etc. Surpise surprise it doesn't!

Its rock and a hard place, I dont agree with some of what sf ropose. Then again we have years of experience that is the failure of ffg and for all the talk of rewarding workers etc, they have had years in power, boom before covid and... nothing! They pander to the status quo and wasters and they have never and will never receive a vote from them, absolutely incredible!

What is RIP off housing? do you mean over priced houses?

You can try change the corporate tax rate but then you will end up putting thousands of people out of work, not just the people working for multi nationals but all the suppliers. People working in canteen etc.

I don't disagree by the way about FF/FG but I question what SF would do? they have a following which in large is the unemployed and they will always look after them first. Every agenda item is to give nothing to the worker. Plus based not he record of SF in the North well I think this says it all

https://www.belfastlive.co.uk/news/northern-ireland-ranked-among-worst-17670062

For all the giving out about Ireland:
https://www.thejournal.ie/ireland-un-human-development-index-2019-5303638-Dec2020/

StupidLikeAFox

Eric Cartman wrote: »

Those on 100k a year are not rich

So what? You said you were going to lower taxes for higher earners and also cut spending on housing associations. This is going to have an impact on homelessness will lead to an increase in homelessness

Eric Cartman

StupidLikeAFox wrote: »

So what? You said you were going to lower taxes for higher earners and also cut spending on housing associations. This is going to have an impact on homelessness will lead to an increase in homelessness

The middle classes will be able to afford homes now with less of a silly tax burden and lower taxes would encourage more landlords into the market.
Homelessness could be less as more constrained funding would encourage councils to tell people on welfare that they should move to the country and dont deserve a house in dublin

Idbatterim

Eric Cartman wrote: »

The middle classes will be able to afford homes now with less of a silly tax burden and lower taxes would encourage more landlords into the market.
Homelessness could be less as more constrained funding would encourage councils to tell people on welfare that they should move to the country and dont deserve a house in dublin

Actually charge them some rent, actually collect the rent actually provide non rip off social housing solutions, actually collect a proper lpt. But no, just rob the mid to high income earners and rob them on property costs too!

It might take fg to get in and potential carnage to get a new party to represent the taxpayer to form. Fg sure as hello are not that party, that was clear a few years back !

jcon1913

sameoldname wrote: »

To be fair, our GDP figures are meaningless due to the multinationals. You really need to use GNI* as a base to get some meaningful stats and even then it's debatable how accurate that is.

€59.3 bn tax 2019 source Irish Independent
€213.7 bn modified GNI 2019 source CSO
Rate 27.8 %

PommieBast

Having some real fun watching the thread on TWSS tax bills. Maybe people getting paid gross salary and then receiving a tax bill, like they do in Hong Kong, will change some minds about Irish tax levels..

sameoldname

Idbatterim wrote: »

Actually charge them some rent, actually collect the rent actually provide non rip off social housing solutions, actually collect a proper lpt. But no, just rob the mid to high income earners and rob them on property costs too!

It might take fg to get in and potential carnage to get a new party to represent the taxpayer to form. Fg sure as hello are not that party, that was clear a few years back !

Why do you keep on complaining about something that you actually went out and voted for? It's mind boggling.

Geuze

jcon1913 wrote: »

€59.3 bn tax 2019 source Irish Independent
€213.7 bn modified GNI 2019 source CSO
Rate 27.8 %

Let us do our own work...........

https://www.cso.ie/en/statistics/governmentaccounts/

https://www.cso.ie/en/releasesandpublications/er/gfsa/governmentfinancestatisticsoctober2020/

2019 GG revenue = 89,135m

of which

2019 taxes and soc conts = 80,471m

of which 2019 tax = 64,625m

Paper never refused ink, do your own research.


2019 GNI* = 213,708

https://www.cso.ie/en/statistics/nationalaccounts/nationalincomeandexpenditureannualresults/


Note that (tax+PRSI) / GNI* is not necessarily the best measure of taxation

80,471 / 213,708 = 37.65%

Idbatterim

https://m.independent.ie/irish-news/news/finance-minister-urged-to-axe-covid-related-tax-bills-as-revenue-seeks-458m-in-unpaid-tax-39976296.html

Eric Cartman

Idbatterim wrote: »

https://m.independent.ie/irish-news/news/finance-minister-urged-to-axe-covid-related-tax-bills-as-revenue-seeks-458m-in-unpaid-tax-39976296.html

Can I have my tax bill scrapped too as a self employed person, shocked labour are calling for scrapping tax, they normally love a good tax

sameoldname

Eric Cartman wrote: »

Can I have my tax bill scrapped too as a self employed person, shocked labour are calling for scrapping tax, they normally love a good tax

Hire a decent accountant, you'd be amazed how much they can save you.

Have you worked out those figures for us yet?

Eric Cartman

sameoldname wrote: »

Hire a decent accountant, you'd be amazed how much they can save you.

Have you worked out those figures for us yet?

https://www.oecd.org/tax/revenue-statistics-ireland.pdf


Irelands income and corporate taxes are much higher than the OECD average.
for 2018 we took in 22.9 billion in personal income tax alone plus another 12 billion in PRSI & USC (USC makes up 4 billion of this from : https://www.irishtimes.com/business/economy/plan-to-merge-usc-and-prsi-could-shrink-tax-revenue-by-1bn-plus-report-warns-1.4044322). If we halved income tax receipts (working that out to a higher threshold percentage etc.. isn't going to happen, there would be hours of work in calculating that so we're just going to half the take) and we're going to abolish USC

so thats 11.5 billion in income tax and 4 billion of USC evaporated , 15.5 billion in tax revenues gone back to the people who earned it.

now for savings :
also taking 2018 to make sure everything lines up, only talking about what we'd cut, by categories on the site :

Social Protection :
Working aged income supports -
JSA - 1.84 billion - abolish it completely saving 1.84 billion
One Parent family allowance - half saving 250 million
Working age employment supports - Community employment program - 353 million
Disability allowance - solve the fraud which we'll estimate at 25% - 400 million
Child benefit - convert to a tax credit which is factored for in the reduction - 2.1 billion
Rent supplement - 175 million
free travel - no more working aged non disabled - 87 million halved to save 43.5 million

Savings so far : 5.16 billion

Health :
Admin Sallaries- 30 million , based on that 4 health boards were made 1 we'll assume its overstaffed by 66% so we cut out 2/3rds - 20 million
We spend 10.7 billion on the HSE, it doesn't break it down too well but lets assume we can make a 10% saving and get a cool billion out - 1 billion

Savings so far : 6.18 billion

Justice :
456 million on 'justice and equality' most of the crap in there is nothing to do with justice - save 300 million

Savings so far : 6.48 billion

Agriculture
Policy and strategy - 370 million of which most of it is grants and hogwash - 300 million savings

Savings so far : 6.78 billion

Debt Servicing and EU payments :

2.58 billion to the EU - Half it saving 1.28 billion
1.41 billion in non voted expenditure - cut 1 billion of it

Savings so far : 9.06 billion

Transport :

Public service provision payment - 296 million - cut it all
Tourism Ireland - 15 million - cut it all let failte do it

Savings so far : 9.38 billion

Other :

Foreign affairs - 743 million of which 50 million is relevant to irelands economic growth - saving 693 million
Broadcasting - 253 million , I think thats all for RTE, cull it all.
culture, heratige and Gaeltacht - cut 50 million out of all those quangos
Housing - 1.98 billion , drop it to 1 billion
Finance - collection of taxes and duties - 425 mil, half it, 212.5 million

savings : 12.33 billion total.

so we could scrap USC completely and get most of the way to halfing our income tax take , making the working people of Ireland much happier, and making us a better nation.

sameoldname

Eric Cartman wrote: »

savings : 12.33 billion total.

so we could scrap USC completely and get most of the way to halfing our income tax take , making the working people of Ireland much happier, and making us a better nation.

So, 10's of thousands homeless, 10's of thousands out of work, €12 billion in domestic spending gone so the country is in recession and we've been kicked out of the EU so no more multinationals to drag us back out...

Well, you'll get your cheap housing anyway that's for sure.

Eric Cartman

sameoldname wrote: »

So, 10's of thousands homeless, 10's of thousands out of work, €12 billion in domestic spending gone so the country is in recession and we've been kicked out of the EU so no more multinationals to drag us back out...

Well, you'll get your cheap housing anyway that's for sure.

you should get an olympic medal for that jump to conclusions.

Back up your numbers as to how many additional homeless people we'd have, job losses and how we'd be kicked out of the EU ?

Also you forget completely that we're putting 12 billion back into taxpayers pockets... are all of them going to just shove it all in a savings account and do nothing with it ? not a chance. They'd spur a much larger spend and boost the economy.

sameoldname

Eric Cartman wrote: »

you should get an olympic medal for that jump to conclusions.

Back up your numbers as to how many additional homeless people we'd have, job losses and how we'd be kicked out of the EU ?

Also you forget completely that we're putting 12 billion back into taxpayers pockets... are all of them going to just shove it all in a savings account and do nothing with it ? not a chance. They'd spur a much larger spend and boost the economy.

Unless you've found a new method of economics where taking away money from the poor, who have to spend basically all of their income to live and instead, giving it to the rich who (might) spend it on discretionary items, will lead to more spending in the overall economy, I'd say that you're talking nonsense.

Never mind the public service cuts which make up about 60% of your "figures". You took 5 billion from welfare and 7 billion from other services. Let's say only half that figure is wages (it's likely more like 80% in the PS) at an average of €60,000 a year for an average employee, to save 3.5 billion a year is around 58,000 staff. They can't afford their mortgages or rent anymore, where are they supposed to find work quickly when there's that many of them competing against each other in the labour market? Along with the few hundred million you took out of rent supplement it's easily 10's of thousands in jobs and homeless.

You said you'd halve our EU contributions unilaterally (more scrounging unsurprisingly), that's not an option the other 26 are going to allow hence no more EU membership.

Eric Cartman

sameoldname wrote: »

Unless you've found a new method of economics where taking away money from the poor, who have to spend basically all of their income to live and instead, giving it to the rich who (might) spend it on discretionary items, will lead to more spending in the overall economy, I'd say that you're talking nonsense.

Never mind the public service cuts which make up about 60% of your "figures". You took 5 billion from welfare and 7 billion from other services. Let's say only half that figure is wages (it's likely more like 80% in the PS) at an average of €60,000 a year for an average employee, to save 3.5 billion a year is around 58,000 staff. They can't afford their mortgages or rent anymore, where are they supposed to find work quickly when there's that many of them competing against each other in the labour market? Along with the few hundred million you took out of rent supplement it's easily 10's of thousands in jobs and homeless.

You said you'd halve our EU contributions unilaterally (more scrounging unsurprisingly), that's not an option the other 26 are going to allow hence no more EU membership.

people on welfare even spending 'all their money' are still detractors from the economy, giving that money back to every tax payer in the form of income tax cuts would absolutely lead to more spending, its not like living pay check to pay check just magically dissapears at 30k, we'd enable more people to make investments, to become landlords , to start companies, create jobs etc.. theres probably a balance in there between your doomsday prediction and my bright shiny new world prediction but there is definitely a lot to be said for putting money back in the hands of the working poor (<30k) the middle classes (30-250k) and the rich (250k + )

every euro you give them back probably has more than a 50/50 chance of generating a job or growing the economy , every euro extra you give the welfare classes and the civil service just drowns that money out of the economy.

sameoldname

Eric Cartman wrote: »

people on welfare even spending 'all their money' are still detractors from the economy, giving that money back to every tax payer in the form of income tax cuts would absolutely lead to more spending, its not like living pay check to pay check just magically dissapears at 30k, we'd enable more people to make investments, to become landlords , to start companies, create jobs etc.. theres probably a balance in there between your doomsday prediction and my bright shiny new world prediction but there is definitely a lot to be said for putting money back in the hands of the working poor (<30k) the middle classes (30-250k) and the rich (250k + )

every euro you give them back probably has more than a 50/50 chance of generating a job or growing the economy , every euro extra you give the welfare classes and the civil service just drowns that money out of the economy.

Halfway between those 2 extremes is basically the United States. You might want to look into how the middle class has been doing over there for the past few decades. You might also want to check when the middle class was at its most prosperous and what the highest rate of tax was at that time. It's enlightening.

Eric Cartman

sameoldname wrote: »

Halfway between those 2 extremes is basically the United States. You might want to look into how the middle class has been doing over there for the past few decades. You might also want to check when the middle class was at its most prosperous and what the highest rate of tax was at that time. It's enlightening.

I knew eventually somebody would blame/bring up America.

Ronald Raegans america was its greatest time, deregulation and low taxation.

Ireland would do well to be more like america than Sweden anyway thats for sure. Not that it should be like either.