Let's take a moment to talk about taxation

Bubbaclaus

sameoldname wrote: »

People view it as double taxation even though it isn't. I don't know anyone who favours 100% mind.

What these people fail to realise is that the double taxation argument could be used on absolutely any tax.

Eric Cartman

sameoldname wrote: »

People view it as double taxation even though it isn't. I don't know anyone who favours 100% mind.

Its not double taxation as its a transfer to a different individual , however I do believe the threshold should be up to 5 million tax free and 25% thereafter, with a complete exemption for 1 singular property in a families portfolio (e.g a historic castle etc..)

However a 25% CAT should absolutely apply to all gambling winnings.

ELM327

Bubbaclaus wrote: »

What these people fail to realise is that the double taxation argument could be used on absolutely any tax.

All taxation is at least double (unless you're buying something nefarious like heroin).


You pay income tax, then you pay VAT on purchases with that taxed money.
If you buy alcohol you pay vat and duty (so thats triple tax)
If you dare put petrol or diesel in your car you then pay VAT, duty, excise and carbon tax, along with motor tax to drive on the road, and a VAT charge as well as a levy on your insurance premium.

sameoldname

ELM327 wrote: »

Except those that fund it.

Everybody funds it, that's the whole point. Everybody who works pays something unlike here where we like to take large groups of people out of the tax net thus allowing people to complain that high and middle class earners "pay for everything".

Idbatterim

I wish they reformed the welfare wonderland last recession, will never happen here. Aherne throwing billions a year ontop of the welfare budget at a time of full employment was a disgrace. A two billion a year rise for example is an extra 2 billion permanently,every year and it was compounded for what? Nearly a decade ?

Those days are long gone even before covid even with the recent boom, couldn't even offer tax deductions or welfare increases in a pre election budget. After covid? Lol!

Read the below. If the fiver on top of outrageous welfare each budget was mocked , you'll wish you had the extra fiver now lads. There is no way there is money for welfare, pay increases or tax cuts, in any meaningful way if at all for years... and years... that had started pre covid. The magic money pools are drying up!

Woefully mismanaged state finances, spending, taxation system. Chickens coming home to roost !

Pandemic Unemployment Payment claimants reach almost 460,000, highest figure since June

https://www.thejournal.ie/pup-claimants-january-5328295-Jan2021/

blanch152

Eric Cartman wrote: »

Its not double taxation as its a transfer to a different individual , however I do believe the threshold should be up to 5 million tax free and 25% thereafter, with a complete exemption for 1 singular property in a families portfolio (e.g a historic castle etc..)

However a 25% CAT should absolutely apply to all gambling winnings.

The threshold is currently €335,000 for a child. The average house price in Ireland was €269,000 last quarter, enough tax-free inheritance to buy an average house.

https://www.thejournal.ie/average-house-prices-ireland-report-5303447-Dec2020/#:~:text=Support%20The%20Journal-,Average%20listed%20price%20of%20a%20home%20in%20Ireland%20was%20%E2%82%AC,of%207.4%25%20on%20last%20year

I don't see why the amount you can inherit tax-free should be much bigger than the cost of an average house. You could argue for a small increase because of the cost of housing in Dublin, but certainly not €5m. As for the rates, the current rate of 33% is high after the threshold, and I would prefer a tiered system as with income tax, with the initial rate lower at 25%, rising to 45% above €5m, with a step of 35% somewhere in-between.

ELM327

sameoldname wrote: »

Everybody funds it, that's the whole point. Everybody who works pays something unlike here where we like to take large groups of people out of the tax net thus allowing people to complain that high and middle class earners "pay for everything".

The reality is that the upper 5-10% pay for everything. And within that 10 percentage point cohort, the upper 5-10% of that cohort pay for most.


But it doesnt change the reality that the highest tax band is too low here, its £50k in the UK and €35k here

Idbatterim wrote: »

I wish they reformed the welfare wonderland last recession, will never happen here. Aherne throwing billions a year o tobthe welfare budget at a time of full employment was a disgrace. A two billion a year rise for example is an extra 2 billion permanently,every year and it was compounded for what? Nearly a decade ?

Those days are long gone even before covid even with the recent boom, couldn't even offer tax deductions or welfare increases in a pre election udget. After covid? Lol!

Read the below. If the fiver on top of outrageous welfare each budget was mocked , you'll wish you had the extra fiver now lads. There is no way there is money for welfare, pay increases or tax cuts, in any meaningful way if at all for years... and years... that had started ore covid. The magic money pools are drying up!

Woefully mismanaged state finances, spending, taxation system. Chickens coming home to roost !

Pandemic Unemployment Payment claimants reach almost 460,000, highest figure since June

https://www.thejournal.ie/pup-claimants-january-5328295-Jan2021/

+1million to all of that, can't agree more.

blanch152

ELM327 wrote: »

The reality is that the upper 5-10% pay for everything. And within that 10 percentage point cohort, the upper 5-10% of that cohort pay for most.


But it doesnt change the reality that the highest tax band is too low here, its £50k in the UK and €35k here




+1million to all of that, can't agree more.

The problem is that the tax-free threshold is too high, meaning vast numbers of people pay little or no income tax.

One way to address this would be to extend a 2 or 3% USC to all income. If this was accompanied by a 4% increase in the minimum wage, everyone would pay a little tax, but the minimum wage earners would actually see an increase in earnings.

ELM327

blanch152 wrote: »

The problem is that the tax-free threshold is too high, meaning vast numbers of people pay little or no income tax.

One way to address this would be to extend a 2 or 3% USC to all income. If this was accompanied by a 4% increase in the minimum wage, everyone would pay a little tax, but the minimum wage earners would actually see an increase in earnings.

I agree, and think USC should be extended and PAYE/PRSI abolished.


"Getting out of the tax net" was Bertie era celtic tiger nonsense. We couldnt (sustainably) afford it then and we can't afford it now.

Idbatterim

Here lies the dilemma , how do you reform the system, when 80 percent of the voters are huge beneficiaries of ten percent being robbed and probably another ten percent pay a reasonable overall tax burden. When everyones vote is equal and it's a popularity contest based primarily on bribes ?

That is the nub of it, the difference in this country is , the hard working accept far too much **** . Too conditioned by an entirely left wing media and government. Ah sure the poor homeless, poor this, poor that. Always the victims, never to blame...

Idbatterim

There is what should happen, but what do you think will happen lads ? My opinion is, its obvious. Borrow borrow borrow, tinker with a broken system. Do nothing unpopular unless forced too. When it comes to cuts or increases, throw crumbs to all voters anything else would be' unfair' and it's all about, only about, optics. Doesn't matter the worker is hammered to pay mortgage and pay for free luxury housing, the situation is just seen as , apply the same result to everyone right now = fair = least political backlash and focus from champion of the wasters but never workers in rte...

Like politicians, living on another planet..

Marcusm

ELM327 wrote: »

The reality is that the upper 5-10% pay for everything. And within that 10 percentage point cohort, the upper 5-10% of that cohort pay for most.


But it doesnt change the reality that the highest tax band is too low here, its £50k in the UK and €35k here

more.

You might want to look at those numbers again.

An Irish single person gets. 1,650 tax credit plus 1,650 PAYE credit.

In the aggregate, this means that the first 3,300 x 5 = 16,500 is tax free. The next 35,300 is taxed at 20% meaning that earnings have to be 51,800 before higher rate income tax is effectively paid in Ireland.

In the U.K., the personal allowance is 12,500 (but not available to those paid in excess of 100k) at nil rate then 10% then 20% on next 37,500 meaning that the 40% rate kicks in at 50k which is not that dramatically different from here under current FX conditions. The U.K. has a 45% rate above 150k and Scotland adds a further 1% onto basic rate.

USC/PRSI is higher here than U.K. NI/levies.

sameoldname

Idbatterim wrote: »

Always the victims, never to blame...

Is this a good time to remind you that you voted for Sinn Fein?

Marcusm

ELM327 wrote: »

I agree, and think USC should be extended and PAYE/PRSI abolished.


"Getting out of the tax net" was Bertie era celtic tiger nonsense. We couldnt (sustainably) afford it then and we can't afford it now.

This last point is the one I agree with most. I was still living in the U.K. then and it was a marvel to see the level of income/benefits which could be received from the Irish state before any net contribution was made. As can be seen in many of the more social democratic states (and I include Germany) is that the broadest possible tax base is necessary and that the rates can be very small but all but the poorest must contribute both to maintain the breadth of exchequer resources but also social solidarity.

One of the initiatives post-recession of the U.K. government was to introduce a “benefits cap” at the level of average (pre tax family earnings). Before that you had some ludicrous stories of 8k per month rentals being paid on the equivalent of HAP. Bad cases make bad rules but there has to be some level of solidarity between the average benefit claimant and the lower paid.

blanch152

ELM327 wrote: »

I agree, and think USC should be extended and PAYE/PRSI abolished.


"Getting out of the tax net" was Bertie era celtic tiger nonsense. We couldnt (sustainably) afford it then and we can't afford it now.

You could do that over time. Because USC is charged on a wider base of income, you could reduce tax rates by 3% and increase USC by only 2% and probably maintain overall budgetary income while creating a fairer system.

sameoldname

blanch152 wrote: »

You could do that over time. Because USC is charged on a wider base of income, you could reduce tax rates by 3% and increase USC by only 2% and probably maintain overall budgetary income while creating a fairer system.

Since the pandemic all hopes of tax cuts are gone for the foreseeable. Even without the pandemic, you'd be hard pushed to find a party that will be willing to be seen as increasing taxes on the lower paid and giving a tax break to the better off.

ELM327

Marcusm wrote: »

You might want to look at those numbers again.

An Irish single person gets. 1,650 tax credit plus 1,650 PAYE credit.

In the aggregate, this means that the first 3,300 x 5 = 16,500 is tax free. The next 35,300 is taxed at 20% meaning that earnings have to be 51,800 before higher rate income tax is effectively paid in Ireland.

In the U.K., the personal allowance is 12,500 (but not available to those paid in excess of 100k) at nil rate then 10% then 20% on next 37,500 meaning that the 40% rate kicks in at 50k which is not that dramatically different from here under current FX conditions. The U.K. has a 45% rate above 150k and Scotland adds a further 1% onto basic rate.

USC/PRSI is higher here than U.K. NI/levies.

You can aggregate out the tax credits to support your argument if you wish but the effective tax rates in Ireland (including USC and PRSI) are ~30% and ~50%, not 20 and 40.


It's muddling the numbers to say it's effectively the same here as in the uk. Especially when we have another income tax (USC) to add in.

Eric Cartman

It should really be a flat 20-25% income tax across the board. The idea that anyone is paying 50+% is barbaric

ELM327

I agree with that. It's why I like USC as it hits everyone fairly.

maccored

Deleted User wrote: »

Its awful hard to take any attempt at analysis seriously that states income tax as either the 20 or 40 % rates without an acknowledgement that neither rate kicks in until a certain threshold which is significantly above zero

Id start by rectifyin that if you want a serious discussion

40% kicks in at 35 grand a year - which is a bit high (the tax rate)

Marcusm

Eric Cartman wrote: »

It should really be a flat 20-25% income tax across the board. The idea that anyone is paying 50+% is barbaric

THere's been more barbarism than low rates int he recent past.

I started working at 17 in 1989:

Tax rates were 32% on first £6,100, 48% on next £3,100 and 58% on the balance. Standard person allowance + PAYE & PRSI allowance was £2,986 (ie income not taxable below that). PRSI/levies amounted to 7.75% IIRC.

I earned £9,000 that year and magically avoided being taxed at 48% on my marginal income!

It's not that long ago, the rates have dropped a lot more dramatically than the tax free limits.

Idbatterim

Eric Cartman wrote: »

It should really be a flat 20-25% income tax across the board. The idea that anyone is paying 50+% is barbaric

Ridiculous suggestion, not fair , not progressive! See rte etc think fair is the scandalous **** that goes on now, wolf of wall street taxes on peasant incomes...

Its simply not fair that you only pay extra e250 per thousand. You earn five k a year kire than someone else, you are relatively wealthy. You earn a entrance more, its u fair, you should be hammered for the gall of it !

Geuze

sameoldname wrote: »

People view it as double taxation even though it isn't. I don't know anyone who favours 100% mind.

"Why not fund the welfare state with a 100% inheritance tax?"
Abi Wilkinson

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2017/jul/24/utopian-thinking-fund-welfare-state-inheritance-tax


Why Do We Allow Inheritance at All?
MEGAN MCARDLE
JUNE 6, 2011

https://www.theatlantic.com/business/archive/2011/06/why-do-we-allow-inheritance-at-all/240004/


https://www.forbes.com/sites/danmatthews/2014/07/24/why-isnt-inheritance-tax-100-per-cent/

Geuze

Marcusm wrote: »

You might want to look at those numbers again.

An Irish single person gets. 1,650 tax credit plus 1,650 PAYE credit.

In the aggregate, this means that the first 3,300 x 5 = 16,500 is tax free. The next 35,300 is taxed at 20% meaning that earnings have to be 51,800 before higher rate income tax is effectively paid in Ireland.

This is misleading.

Your first 35,300 is taxed at 20%, then the tax credits are deducted.

You may be confusing tax-free allowances with tax credits.


After 35,300, any extra income faces 48.5% marginal tax rate.

ELM327

Geuze wrote: »

This is misleading.

Your first 35,300 is taxed at 20%, then the tax credits are deducted.

You may be confusing tax-free allowances with tax credits.


After 35,300, any extra income faces 48.5% marginal tax rate.

This is what I was alluding to earlier, he is fudging the numbers to suit his argument.

Geuze

Marcusm wrote: »

In the U.K., the personal allowance is 12,500 (but not available to those paid in excess of 100k) at nil rate then 10% then 20% on next 37,500 meaning that the 40% rate kicks in at 50k which is not that dramatically different from here under current FX conditions. The U.K. has a 45% rate above 150k and Scotland adds a further 1% onto basic rate.

The 48.5% tax+USC+PRSI starts here at 35,300.

That is GBP 31,500.

The 40% rate kicks in at GBP 50,000 in the UK.

"not dramatically different" - I dispute that statement.

31.5k is a good bit less than 50k

Idbatterim

Geuze wrote: »

The 48.5% tax+USC+PRSI starts here at 35,300.

That is GBP 31,500.

The 40% rate kicks in at GBP 50,000 in the UK.

"not dramatically different" - I dispute that statement.

31.5k is a good bit less than 50k

Exactly, how far does 50k sterling go there v 31.5I sterling here in rip off Island ? Great for all the massive net recipients to say, let the workers pay, its related to income, its equitable, lol!

I run a company, like I said, people wont work extra hours even on generous pay, because you are working for half pay. That's the fact! The marginal is insane, insulting and economically damaging!

Any new party here that firmed, that were centre , that wanted to sort these issues out, would be branded far right nazis! That's what you are up again here. I wish such a party would form. Forget the irish spineless political setup currently of being everything to every man. You want to make Inroads, you do t apologise for wanting to look after the working poor, the higher earning bogeymen.

You can have serious influence here even with a handful of seats, be kingmaker. 20-25% and you could be the biggest party...

Mad_maxx

Eric Cartman wrote: »

It should really be a flat 20-25% income tax across the board. The idea that anyone is paying 50+% is barbaric

politicians dont like flat taxes as they cant make promises to certain groups when everyone is working off the same principal

Idbatterim

sameoldname wrote: »

Is this a good time to remind you that you voted for Sinn Fein?

Thanks for the reminder. I previously voted for those fg liars that preside over the scandalous taxation here on mid to earners. The scandalous cost of housing . Dublin having a third world transport system. We have come out of a several year boom and nothing was done to address the farce. So I am afraid, that you might thi k voting fg majes more sense than sf. They arecspinekess they are left wing except when it comes to rip off property. I womt vote for them again and my many of my mates who voted fg eke ton before last, just didn't vote this time round. They are losing seats and power because they wont do what they said they would. More scared of being called out of touch by a career welfareist, on the globes most obscene all round welfare state ( free housing etc included) a person who would never vote fg ever desire the welfare wonderland they have presided over while screwing over hundreds of thousands who do vote for them. So the fg spies on here can go back to group headquarters and report back from the front line, why they are losing voters !

Mad_maxx

Idbatterim wrote: »

Exactly, how far does 50k sterling go there v 31.5I sterling here in rip off Island ? Great for all the massive net recipients to say, let the workers pay, its related to income, its equitable, lol!

I run a company, like I said, people wont work extra hours even on generous pay, because you are working for half pay. That's the fact! The marginal is insane, insulting and economically damaging!

Any new party here that firmed, that were centre , that wanted to sort these issues out, would be branded far right nazis! That's what you are up again here. I wish such a party would form. Forget the irish spineless political setup currently of being everything to every man. You want to make Inroads, you do t apologise for wanting to look after the working poor, the higher earning bogeymen.

You can have serious influence here even with a handful of seats, be kingmaker. 20-25% and you could be the biggest party...

the socialist media would rip apart any political party who espoused easing up on earners in the 40 k to 80 k bracket

engaging in pieties about " the most vulnerable " is a highly competitive sport in this country