Public Consultation on a Micro-generation Support Scheme (MSS) in Ireland

graememk

mp3guy wrote: »

Seems like misinformation, just some random number pulled out of context from the full document.

All these extra conditions seem to be for the premium tariff.

Ie the more subsidied one.

Roll on the likes of octopus agile (and outgoing tariff)
Highly variable rates, (can go negative at times of high wind overnight). But expensive during 4-8pm peak.

The outgoing rate yesterday evening was 1.40 a unit,

I could discharge my battery to the grid and make a tenner! There's people in the uk using nodered and communication+control with their inverters to pick the best time to charge etc. But that's very hands on!

championc

minnow wrote: »

According to this tweet the maximum domestic system for FIT is only 3kW. That's very low.

https://twitter.com/EnergyInIreland/status/1349665295317815297?s=19

The interesting part here is Domestic and 3kW, because a "standard" domestic 12m² system would be closer to 2kW

unkel

graememk wrote: »

Roll on the likes of octopus agile (and outgoing tariff)
Highly variable rates, (can go negative at times of high wind overnight). But expensive during 4-8pm peak.

+1

I'm happy to pay the real costs of electricity. Anyone who doesn't want to / can't should in future pay a large premium for a flat daily rate, or even for a flattened (capped) 30 minute rate

idc

minnow wrote: »

According to this tweet the maximum domestic system for FIT is only 3kW. That's very low.

Don't know where they got that figure ? ESB Networks did state

the network can currently accommodate widespread micro-generation penetration at levels up to 3kWp (rural) and 4kWp (urban).

From this there could be an issue as Solar PV becomes more wide spread in that people may be limited to 3/4kWp systems or need to wait till ESB networks upgrade infrastructure.


For anyone hoping for Net Metering I don't see that happening. The list the following Capital grants, Feed in Tariff, Feed in Premium, Generation Tariff, Net Metering or Tax Rebate. But never make any mention of Net Metering or Tax Rabate again.

mp3guy

idc wrote: »

From this there could be an issue as Solar PV becomes more wide spread in that people may be limited to 3/4kWp systems or need to wait till ESB networks upgrade infrastructure.

This is what I took from it too. So, if you're planning to export more than 3/4kWp, sign up to do it sooner rather than later, otherwise all of the local capacity will be gone.

holdfast

This 3kw without battery is based based on it providing about 70% consumption by the user. The other is wasted or not usesd by the user in their simulations. other simulation of more or less pv mean more/less consumption by the user , but more/less benefit to the country. So the 3kW is the middle ground if you like. Reading the intent is to keep the user using most of the power and then provide a token payment to offset the amount he exports/loses . This will not be a money making exercise with figure of 7cent to 12c been in the region mentioned in the draft tech review.

Also in the 3kw and 4kw is the limitations on the grid. The eirgrid rightly does not really want PV on the grid that still requires a backup gen to be run. There is a happy medium between RE penetration/ grid capacity and backup generation needed.

I think for the guys with the battery already the saving will be the price mentioned above versus the cost they buy the electricity. So it will be still worth something to you.

Just to clarify I put in 3kw without battery over 18 months ago. Based on the above assumptions. I will be happy to get an extra 7c for the lost/exported power. This would give in the region of 370 euro a year and a payback of the region of 8 years.

DrPhilG

Maybe I'm being thick, but I have no clue what's in the pipeline.

I have 6.2kwp currently, with an eye in doubling that in a few years.

I have 4.8kWh batteries currently, but planning to go to 9kWh this year.

I have a B2 BER cert.

Am I likely to get any FiT or not?

graememk

DrPhilG wrote: »

Maybe I'm being thick, but I have no clue what's in the pipeline.

I have 6.2kwp currently, with an eye in doubling that in a few years.

I have 4.8kWh batteries currently, but planning to go to 9kWh this year.

I have a B2 BER cert.

Am I likely to get any FiT or not?

Still a consultation at the minute but by the looks of the doc they chat about a clean export guarantee rate - for existing installations.

then there is a Clean Export Premium Tariff for installs after the 30th june 2021. - it seems is that its this that the restrictions are under. BER, 30%, 3kwp,

The articles about it and all that has really confused everyone.

Batteries will have no effect on it other than less than you can export

idc

Been trying to figure out the 30% export limit and reading both docs it looks like they have worked out a form of average yearly usage for annual power demand (kWh) and also one for heat demand in kWh.

They have this for all the different sector use cases. For domestic it is 5220 kWh. 30% of this is 1566. So I'd expect this is how cap would work. Meaning all domestic users can export and be paid for max of 1566kWh before cap is applied.

unkel

idc wrote: »

Meaning all domestic users can export and be paid for max of 1566kWh before cap is applied.

Fantastic. At about 5c / kWh that means a total yearly FIT income of €78

Brilliant incentive. I bet every man, woman and dog in the country will go and plaster all their roofs with solar PV :rolleyes:

DrPhilG

graememk wrote: »

then there is a Clean Export Premium Tariff for installs after the 30th june 2021. - it seems is that its this that the restrictions are under. BER, 30%, 3kwp

So to get the more straightforward regulations, I'd be better to increase my panels before June rather than after?

mp3guy

DrPhilG wrote: »

So to get the more straightforward regulations, I'd be better to increase my panels before June rather than after?

You will have to have an inverter capable of limiting exported power to 6kW, or apply to the ESB with form NC5 to be a full blown microgenerator. That costs money.

idc

graememk wrote: »

then there is a Clean Export Premium Tariff for installs after the 30th june 2021. - it seems is that its this that the restrictions are under. BER, 30%, 3kwp,

Is the CEP basically a form of replacement for the current grants. Definitely the questions at the end of doc seem to mention the 30% in relation CEP tariff but earlier int the document its not clear!

unkel wrote: »

Fantastic. At about 5c / kWh that means a total yearly FIT income of €78

Brilliant incentive. I bet every man, woman and dog in the country will go and plaster all their roofs with solar PV :rolleyes:

Doh I never even worked out that figure but I cant see how else there are going to work out 30% other than some general average house figure.

championc

DrPhilG wrote: »

So to get the more straightforward regulations, I'd be better to increase my panels before June rather than after?

Why not just concentrate on meeting the needs of your house and EV . Are you seriously going to add extra panels and an extra inverter **, exceed the 6kW ESB limit, all for €78 ? Makes zero sense to me. Maybe I've missed something.

** You may have his the voltage threshold per string meaning you'd need another inverter

graememk

idc wrote: »

Is the CEP basically a form of replacement for the current grants. Definitely the questions at the end of doc seem to mention the 30% in relation CEP tariff but earlier int the document its not clear!

Looks that way.

Won't know for sure until the consultation is over, but the way it's being reported it's clear as mud.

KCross

graememk wrote: »

Still a consultation at the minute but by the looks of the doc they chat about a clean export guarantee rate - for existing installations.

then there is a Clean Export Premium Tariff for installs after the 30th june 2021. - it seems is that its this that the restrictions are under. BER, 30%, 3kwp,

The date you quoted is actually 2020 in the doc, not 2021.

KCross

idc wrote: »

Been trying to figure out the 30% export limit and reading both docs it looks like they have worked out a form of average yearly usage for annual power demand (kWh) and also one for heat demand in kWh.

They have this for all the different sector use cases. For domestic it is 5220 kWh. 30% of this is 1566. So I'd expect this is how cap would work. Meaning all domestic users can export and be paid for max of 1566kWh before cap is applied.

I didn’t read it that way. I think those tables were for illustration and cost estimation. I didn’t read it as being used to fix every generator to one fixed export limit.

That wouldn’t make much sense as the variation in household electricity usage is huge.

DrPhilG

championc wrote: »

Why not just concentrate on meeting the needs of your house and EV . Are you seriously going to add extra panels and an extra inverter **, exceed the 6kW ESB limit, all for €78 ? Makes zero sense to me. Maybe I've missed something.

** You may have his the voltage threshold per string meaning you'd need another inverter

You have missed something lol.

I didn't say I was doing all this just to qualify for €78 a year. I'm saying that I plan on increasing both panels and storage regardless. I know I will need another inverter.

I'm just asking if installing the panels before or after June will make a difference. I'll be adding them at some stage either way.

graememk

KCross wrote: »

The date you quoted is actually 2020 in the doc, not 2021.

Oh.. So i did, When did the last solar grant change?

Now that changes things. I must have seen 2020 and thought it was "this year" ie 2021..

How would they know when the install went in? the NC6 form? maybe.

only give the premium feed in tariff to grant applicants?

Was that wrote last year then covid hit and put on the back burner and nobody noticed?

Why even make the distinction - just pay for the electricity exported at a base rate and forgo any subsidised payment.

mp3guy

DrPhilG wrote: »

I'm just asking if installing the panels before or after June will make a difference. I'll be adding them at some stage either way.

That remains to be seen. Personally, I'm looking at finishing expansion before this new plan rolls out. Who knows where things might land.

holdfast

I think anyone can apply when the scheme is up and running. But the way this is been touted it primarily to meet the users with a little kick for the county. If you go bigger and export more my guess is you will not get paid more than the average kWh rate. The intent at this stage is for people to use as much as they can i.e best payback and then a little incentive to offset the losses. But who knows they may make a cash for ash scheme like the North.

I even think sizing your system to meet your ev and heat pump may be overkill. As the more demand we have the more wind energy we can put on the grid at night and or winter, when it is at its best output. This will happen more over the next few years so energy may become cheaper at these times. Versus a PV battery system which will have a low output in the winter and more costly. Just my reading of where we are going.

the_amazing_raisin

I think that 3kW limit seems pretty poor. I know some inverters let you limit the export and it's designed for self consumption, but there's going to be times when you're outputting more and can't consume it all

I get that there has to be limits, but I can't see any reason why they can't give an export limit that same as your import limit (16kVA in my case). Even 50% of the import limit would go a long way

If they want to put limits on a microgeneration scheme, then it should be around the amount of kWh exported per year. In other words, below say 5000kWh per year you get a guaranteed rate, above that you get a lower rate per kWh.

the_amazing_raisin

Okay, having read as much as I could understand, maybe someone could make sure I'm not wandering wildly off track.

The proposal seems to be summarised below (I've added some paragraphs and emphasis):

Based on the assessment report, the recommended policy option is an option that includes a Clean Export Guarantee(CEG). The advantages of a Clean Export Guarantee is that it can be provided at near cost-neutrality as the rates are provided by suppliers based on wholesale electricity prices, which also aligns with the European objectives of the recast Renewable Energy Directive. Moreover, a CEG is inherently able to provide incentives for self-consumption, energy efficiency and avoids the risk of overcompensation, which are all objectives set under the Climate Action Plan.

The long-term objective is to have an arrangement that provides a market-based payment that incentivises export of electricity when the peak system demand occurs through optimising demand side time-of-use of appliances, so as to reduce the costs of supporting non-renewable back-up generation.

Suppliers would then be able to offer time-of use tariffs that vary for different periods of the day and this would optimise micro-generation for system demand. This requires a system of time-of use tariffs and a deployment of Smart Meters that is not available in the Irish electricity market today but should be planned for over the lifetime of the MSS.

In the interim,the CEG can be supported through an interim settlement arrangement based on a manual process, and therefore a minimum tariff is being proposed that reflects the average wholesale Day Ahead Market Price (DAM).

As the CEG will not be able to meet the viability gap for the lowest cost technologies in any sector until technology costs reduce further, it is recommended that the CEG is supplemented by a Clean Export Premium(CEP) in the first years to support deployment of new renewable micro-generation. In line with the CEG, a minimum tariff by sector based on the viability gap of the lowest cost technology is being proposed.

As the CEP is defined as bridging the difference between the viability gap and the CEG provided for new installations, and the technology costs are expected to reduce, there is also a planned phase-out of this subsidy over time, thereby reducing the risk of policy uncertainty or overcompensation.

And some explanation of the terms

CEG = SEG:
A Smart Export Guarantee (SEG), which is an obligation on licensed electricity suppliers of a specific size to offer an export tariff to renewable generators with eligible installations. The suppliers can decide the level of the export tariff as well as its type and length. This could mean there could be a variety of different SEG tariffs available and generators may consider switching to suppliers with the most favourable SEG

CEP = FIP:
Under a feed-in premium (FIP)scheme, generators receive a premium on top of the market price of their electricity production. Premiums can either be fixed (at a constant level independent of market prices) or sliding (with levels varying in line with wholesale electricity prices). Fixed FIP schemes are simpler in design but there is a risk of overcompensation in the case of high market prices or under-compensation when market prices are low. In the case of slidingFIP schemes, the regulator faces some risk in case electricity prices decrease, as support levels fluctuate with changes in electricity market prices. On the other hand, the regulator does not risk having to pay for overcompensation, as is the case under a fixed FIP scheme. The sliding FIP scheme does however make the scheme more complex, thereby adding additional administration costs.

So basically what they're saying is that electricity providers will be obliged to pay a rate for export defined by the CRU based on the market prices of electricity (CEG). This can be a fixed rate or an agile rate based on market prices, it's up to the supplier which they choose

Because there's some question marks over the viability of this model, there's be a premium rate paid over the market rate for a while until costs get lower

Am I reading that right?

idc

KCross wrote: »

I didn’t read it that way. I think those tables were for illustration and cost estimation. I didn’t read it as being used to fix every generator to one fixed export limit.

That wouldn’t make much sense as the variation in household electricity usage is huge.

How do you think they will monitor generation in that case?

Currently the only official meter is the one where electricity enters the premises. How will they monitor a multitude of different inverters/batteries inside each house. Realistically it would need to be monitoring of the dc cables. Monitoring electricity coming out of a combo battery/inverter is no good as you'd also need to account for people filling battery from mains.

Also am sure someone on one of the other PV threads mentioned how it would be easier to cheat the system if they had a meter at the fuse board inside the house for calculating pv generation!

KCross

idc wrote: »

How do you think they will monitor generation in that case?

Currently the only official meter is the one where electricity enters the premises. How will they monitor a multitude of different inverters/batteries inside each house. Realistically it would need to be monitoring of the dc cables. Monitoring electricity coming out of a combo battery/inverter is no good as you'd also need to account for people filling battery from mains.

Also am sure someone on one of the other PV threads mentioned how it would be easier to cheat the system if they had a meter at the fuse board inside the house for calculating pv generation!

No one knows but I presume you’ll need an export/smart meter and somehow register the size of your system.

They might realise it can’t really be policed and not enforce it at all. They could come up with anything!

graememk

The only place they can monitor is in the sealed smart meter.

There could maybe try to set limits.. or something. But the meter is the only place.

idc

I think my previous idea on 30% is slightly wrong as rereading i noticed the value I reported is actual annual demand as opposed to generation!

Given the variety of different use cases within a sector and the lack of available demand
data for these use cases, it was necessary to make several assumptions to determine the
demand which is detailed below. The following table summarises the annual demand
assumed across each sector.

But then after the table of sectors it also states

Using these annual demands, annual hourly demand profiles are determined to examine
supply vs demand and generate self-consumed and exported power proportions.

so the likelihood is the 30% cap will be derived off some value based on the above demand. So they'll come up with some formula to determine the average house with PV and how much it generates in a year!

Thats just my take on this!!!

championc

KCross wrote: »

No one knows but I presume you’ll need an export/smart meter and somehow register the size of your system.

They might realise it can’t really be policed and not enforce it at all. They could come up with anything!

They already know the size of people's systems, from the NC6 Form, which is tied to your MPRN

idc

championc wrote: »

They already know the size of people's systems, from the NC6 Form, which is tied to your MPRN

Not exactly it only reports the size of the inverter I think. Which isn't really the complete picture. I could install a 6kW inverter for future use while initially only attaching 1kWp worth of panels!
Or what about all the guys you add to there system. Do you send in a new NC6 Form?

KCross

graememk wrote: »

The only place they can monitor is in the sealed smart meter.

There could maybe try to set limits.. or something. But the meter is the only place.

championc wrote: »

They already know the size of people's systems, from the NC6 Form, which is tied to your MPRN

I'd agree. Realistically the export meter (smart or otherwise) is the only measure they can reliably use. Anything inside the premise will be wide open to abuse. Eirgrid wont go there.

idc wrote: »

Not exactly it only reports the size of the inverter I think. Which isn't really the complete picture. I could install a 6kW inverter for future use while initially only attaching 1kWp worth of panels!
Or what about all the guys you add to there system. Do you send in a new NC6 Form?

The NC6 has two elements...
- Inverter: Model and Rating (Max Mec)
- Panels: Max Generation Capacity (kVA)

They look for both but in any case it couldnt really be used for capping a FiT. You could have filled in an NC6 and then subsequently upgraded the inverter or added panels. How would they know? Unless its an offence to add panels without an NC6 update and they actually enforce that!

The export meter is the only real reliable measurement they can use but its still perplexing as to how they think they can detect whether you have breached the 30% export limit when they dont know how much you have generated.

I'm worried about this element of the scheme as they might come up with some mad system administered by SEAI which will just make the whole thing more cumbersome than it should be.