Donald Trump discussion Thread IX (threadbanned users listed in OP)

aloyisious

Judge Cannon decided that May 2024 will be fine for former president Trump's trial on charges of illegal retention of classified documents. It wasn't the date that Mr Trump and his legal team, nor the federal prosecution, wanted. It is during the period that persons seeking the presidential nomination start renewing party friendships but before the chosen one is named as the party nominee. Its close to the time that Mr Trump is due for trial in NY on charges related to "off the books" hush money payments to Stormy Daniels.

Odds on that Mr Trump legal team will seek adjournments of the Florida trial from Judge Cannon on the grounds of bias, if not downright jury disaffection due to the media.

Nody

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120854803#Comment_120854803

Oh hey what a surprise; Trump lost the appeals, who'd have thought...

Rjd2

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120923378#Comment_120923378

https://edition.cnn.com/2023/07/31/politics/trump-operation-spending-legal-troubles/index.html

An interesting talking point sent out to the surrogates basically saying " drop out the primary is over and unite behind Trump",,,,clearly he is feeling the pinch financially. I don't think it will stop him winning the primary but only so much naïve retirees can send him.

VinLieger

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120926701#Comment_120926701

Indeed hes burning through donations to fund his legal fight, his base will be tapped out when it comes time to actually campaign

Quin_Dub

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120926745#Comment_120926745

And his legal bills aren't going to get any smaller as the primaries or the election proper progresses,

$40M this year so far , can expect that his bills in the second half of the year will be higher as I would expect that his lawyers are going to be in court a LOT more.

aloyisious

I'm reading from the UK site "The Daily Digest" a story by Zeleb.es that relays: a healthy portion of Republicans now view Trump unfavourably, that his support has dropped 9 points since last year according to the Pew research Centre. I'm hoping that it's a true report and not a hopeful poll tale not to be relied on. The GOP polls say differently; then one would suppose they would in the info-wars situation he's landed the US in.

aloyisious

Indicted again.

amandstu

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120928035#Comment_120928035

And not just for anything.

The c*** tried to fraudulently overturn the result of a free and fair democratic general election.

pixelburp

Long time coming with that indictment but, of course, it won't shift the needle of the base. Trumpism is a cult and given the pre-existing narrative already spoke of conspiracy and corruption against Trump and his conservative acolytes, this will only serve to confirm their resting siege mentality the liberals are out to get them.

The question remains now: will the GOP publicly defend and back him? Broad support should be untenable as t this stage, but who knows? It's not like they have a better, more popular candidate given the dearth of electable human beings for 2024 - while what difference, if any, does Mitch McConnell's failing health make here? Trump isn't the only crisis ATM what with McConnell's very public stroke, or whatever that "pause" was.

Leroy42

Pence is a key witness in the case and some reports I have read claim Meadows has flipped.

So at the very least it was cause many in the GOP to pick a side. They can't, legitimately, claim its all a Biden conspiracy when some of their senior people are working in it.

Up to now the GOP have been able to stay united as they had a common enemy.

ancapailldorcha

Is there a reason this took so long? It's been the best part of 3 years now since the insurrection.

Nody

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120928639#Comment_120928639

While much of Trump’s plotting to overturn the election happened in the open in real time and was the subject of a presidential impeachment trial and major congressional probe, the new charges show the work prosecutors put into assembling a sprawling and sweeping case.For instance, the indictment appears to include witness testimony that they secured, sometimes after secretive legal fights over executive privilege, that was out of reach for other investigations.

Taken from CNN's article and bolded by me. Five of the six co-defendants have been identified:

Co-Conspirator 1 is former Trump lawyer Rudy Giuliani. Among other things, the indictment quotes from a voicemail that Co-Conspirator 1 left “for a United States Senator” on January 6, 2021. The quotes in the indictment match quotes from Giuliani’s call intended for GOP Sen. Tommy Tuberville, as reported by CNN and other outlets.

Co-Conspirator 2 is former Trump lawyer John Eastman. Among other things, the indictment says Co-Conspirator 2 “circulated a two-page memorandum” with a plan for Vice President Mike Pence to overturn the 2020 election while presiding over the Electoral College certification on January 6, 2021. The indictment quotes from the memo, and those quotes match a two-page memo that Eastman wrote, as reported and published by CNN.

Co-Conspirator 3 is former Trump lawyer Sidney Powell. Among other things, the indictment says Co-Conspirator 3 “filed a lawsuit against the Governor of Georgia” on November 25, 2020, alleging “massive election fraud” and that the lawsuit was “dismissed” on December 7, 2020. These dates and quotations match the federal lawsuit that Powell filed against Georgia Gov. Brian Kemp.

Co-Conspirator 4 is former Justice Department official Jeffrey Clark. The indictment identifies Co-Conspirator 4 as “a Justice Department official.” The indictment also quotes an email that a top Justice Department sent to Clark, rebutting Clark’s attempts to use the department to overturn the election. The quotes in that email directly match quotes in an email sent to Clark, according to a Senate report about how Trump tried to weaponize the Justice Department in 2020. 

Co-Conspirator 5 is pro-Trump lawyer Kenneth Chesebro. Among other things, the indictment references an “email memorandum” that Co-Conspirator 5 “sent” to Giuliani on December 13, 2020, about the fake electors plot. The email sender, recipient, date, and content are a direct match for an email that Chesebro sent to Giuliani, according to a copy of the email made public by the House select committee that investigated January 6. 

The identity of Co-Conspirator 6 is unclear. The indictment says they are “a political consultant who helped implement a plan to submit fraudulent slates of presidential electors to obstruct the certification proceeding.” The indictment also further ties this person to the fake elector slate in Pennsylvania.

pixelburp

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120928639#Comment_120928639

If I had to take a wild stab in the dark: the Cult of Trump, and the whole victim complex surrounding it, is so strong that only a water-tight case would suffice at this stage to change minds around its orbit. For the indictment to truly avoid the clamour of "political interference" or "witch-hunt", I imagine the decree from the Democrat brain-trust was that the evidence had to be as robust & air-tight as possible.

We know certain GOP politicians are all-in on Trump and won't be swayed by pesky details like reality or evidence - but it's (presumably) all about further eroding the middle-ground within and without the GOP.

Plus, perhaps more cynically, by delaying it this long it means the actual case will now run into the 2024 Presidential Campaign. Gonna be hard for Trump to bluster and wave away the problem when there'll be constant reminder to the American public he attempted a hillbilly coup.

EDit: I see @Nody also noted that the basic shoe-leather in getting testimony took a long while too.

salmocab

If I was a defendant and Rudi was on my side in the box I’d be extremely worried about what will scutter from his mouth. He is a moron

pixelburp

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120928689#Comment_120928689

I daresay Rudi was promised a lot of things that might happen if he cooperated, and things that would definitely happen if he deviated an iota from the truth. The man's reputation is tarnished beyond repair and IIRC there's plenty of noise to have his license to practise law revoked; at this stage he might best testifying then slinking into the shadows to enjoy his retirement.

ohnonotgmail

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120928703#Comment_120928703

a lot more than just noise

https://edition.cnn.com/2023/07/07/politics/dc-bar-rudy-giuliani/index.html

Flaneur OBrien

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120928639#Comment_120928639

There was a lot of “i’s” to dot and “t’s” to cross I imagine. This isn’t your ordinary average plaintiff. This is a former president of the United States, with huge support behind him still. If they didn’t do everything by the book, it could easily fuel a civil war, especially given how many guns the MAGA crowd would have.

It’s still up in the air as to what will happen. I see riots either way.

Leroy42

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120928639#Comment_120928639

My reading of it is that despite all the stuff that is known the case really revolves around whether Trump 'knew' that the claim he was making was false. Otherwise, as Guiliani claimed last night, it could be claimed that Trump was simply expressing free speech.

So the investigation hinges on getting those actually involved in the conspiracy to flip and that takes time. You are not simply going to get Pence to give up everything. You need to put them under pressure by obtaining other evidence. So while the case he essentially against Trump, it would involve investigating multiple parties and getting them to give a full picture of what was happening with Trump.

Those claims then need to be backed up by others.

And have others have said, this is a one-shot gun. Fail to land this and kiss goodbye to democracy. That is a pretty high-stakes game so everything needs to be on point. Everyone saw what happened on the day, everyone has heard Trump, and yet millions, and the GOP as a whole, continue to treat is as nothing more than a simple case of some people getting a bit carried away on a field trip!

aloyisious

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120928682#Comment_120928682

In order for the indictment to be approved by the Grand Jury, the prosecutor may have presented the 2-page Eastman memorandum [or a precis of it] to the jury. IMO, there'd be no point in Eastman creating it if the V/P, Mike Pence, was not on the mailing list.

Ditto the paperwork submitted by Powell when she sued to overturn the Georgia result AND separately the internal DOJ [paper]work Emails involving Clark and the other DOJ official. It'd be nice to know exactly how high up the chain of command in the DOJ the TOP official was. The documents would be prima facie evidence supporting the high crimes and misdemeanours indictment against Trump and the others.

If Rudy was convicted and locked up after trial of his peers before the other defendants were tried, it might well persuade them to a plea deal. It would break him being locked up. I don't know who is paying his lawyers fees since his NY lawyers licence was suspended and the Trump firm stopped playing his legal fees.

As for the lead conspirator, Trump, I think he could walk naked down 5th Avenue in the nude at mid-day and some of his supporters would still swear blind that he is wearing clothes.

duploelabs

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120928035#Comment_120928035

🎶You're once, twice, THREE times indicted🎶

ancapailldorcha

Thanks for the answers. That all adds up.

One thing I'll say for Trump is that he has exposed some glaring flaws and weaknesses in the heart of the American constitutional system. I can't see anything being done to address this sadly.

Quin_Dub

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120929169#Comment_120929169

Absolutely.

Not unlike Johnson in the UK with the proroguing of Parliament, Trump showed that a lot of the US rules were created with a baseline assumption that people would always act like "gentlemen" and not do obviously wrong things because of how bad it would look.

They never actually enacted laws to prevent a whole bunch of actions because 200+ years ago they couldn't envisage a scenario where such a complete an utter scum-bag with absolutely no ability to feel shame or embarrassment would hold high office, so they just assumed that people would always conform to the rules of basic human decency and decorum.

How wrong they were.

Rjd2

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120928463#Comment_120928463

Some of the also rans will criticise but the majority will back him. Tim Scott for example who some consider "moderate" was defending him last night on twitter.

It won't move the needle in the primary, heck it probably strengthens his support but someone outlined what could happen in the next few yeard for the GOP and its very bleak.

2024 He wins the primary easily but then loses to Biden and obviously will yet again scream electoral fraud. Many other GOP heavy hitters will roll their eyes privately but as they fear for their own career will play footsie with this rubbish.

2026 Trump will still be the most popular GOP politician, he will endorse stop the steal freaks and MAGA bots in the midterms and the GOP will under perform ala 2022 primary.

2028 He runs again because heh "if the dems didn't win fair last two times" why won't he? He'd not be as formidable as he is now but I'd still expect him to win a primary.

2028 Election,,,,Never trust the Dems not to mess anything up but facing Trump for the 4th time at 83 LOL.

Amusingly if Clinton had crushed him in 20216 then the movement would have somewhat gone away, Trump would have gone back to TV and ultimately Clinton would have governed from the centre and the world would not have ended for the GOP. Heck she would have been very vulnerable in 2020.

The GOP had their chance to impeach him in the aftermath of Jan 6th and as always with Trump they bottled it, yes their would have been short term pain when it comes to primaries but long term Trumpism which is a toxic would have been driven out of the party.

Rjd2

I know Powell was discussed above even Trump knew she was absolutely crazy.

https://www.axios.com/2021/01/17/trump-off-the-rails-descent-into-madness

[quote]

President Trump was sitting in the Oval Office one day in late November when a call came in from lawyer Sidney Powell. "Ugh, Sidney," he told the staff in the room before he picked up. "She's getting a little crazy, isn't she? She's really gotta tone it down. No one believes this stuff. It's just too much."

He put the call on speakerphone for the benefit of his audience. Powell was raving about a national security crisis involving the Iranians flipping votes in battleground states. Trump pressed mute and laughed mockingly.

"So what are we gonna do about it, Sidney?" Trump would say every few seconds, whipping Powell more and more into a frenzy. He was having fun with it. "She really is crazy, huh?" he said, again with his finger on the mute button.

It was clear that Trump recognized how unhinged his outside legal advisers were. But he was becoming increasingly desperate about losing to Joe Biden, and Powell and her crew were willing to keep feeding the grand lie that the election could be overturned.

They were selling Trump a seductive but delusional vision: a clear and achievable path to victory. The only catch: He'd have to stop listening to his government and campaign staffs, to cross the Rubicon and view them as liars, quitters and traitors.

[/quote]

Quin_Dub

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120931216#Comment_120931216

Sydney Powell - The idiots useful idiot.

aloyisious

I'd look forward to a period of seemingly normal politics if, for some reason, Trump himself was sidelined from GOP politics and another candidate [DeSantis or other] was/had to be chosen by the GOP as the party nominee. If DeSantis ran and won over Biden, I can see there'd be a sorting out of Trump family and fans from within the GOP by DeSantis to ensure he was seen to be the President of the US, and Trump history. There'd be a period while the air was full of dust then it would clear away, leaving politics back with the politicians. A GOP incumbent would need a White House chief of staff with a spine of steel to deal with the Trump hangers-on and House pass-holders.

Even if DeSantis ran and lost, he'd be obliged to toss Trump & Co from the party to the dump for his own safety and avoid being knifed in the back.

With a possible sudden retirement of Mitch McConnell on health grounds, there'd be a shuffling of chairs in the GOP senate seating arrangement. That, if it happened, would give a new president room to move and secure his position in office, in the GOP and in history afterwards. While it's useful for the GOP now to have idiots running loose in the House for the sake of electoral votes, no sane president or new leadership could continue to allow the village idiots to interfere with the day to day handling of politics. The day of the "he/she's our idiot" GOP kindness would have to pass, even if it took a decade or so.

There's comment/mutterings in the media today that the GOP House leader, Kevin McCarthy, has problems to solve where being called on to support Trump and stop him being prosecuted by initiating investigations, impeachment and legal moves against the serving President, Joe Biden. This smells of Trump-ism and the village idiots

The power of "outside" influencers would have to be smashed for the sake of the presidency, both parties and the US itself. no more Fox News or Cambridge Analytics behind the scenes pulling of levers. I don't think the Democrats would have as much to deal with or fear in that regard, compared to the GOP.

Podge_irl

DeSantis couldn't win against a wet paper bag, he is horrendous. The only hope he has of beating Trump in the first place is the latter being in jail.

Rjd2

DeSantis if he somehow was to beat Trump in a primary would have to promise Trump a pardon to keep him in line.

I'd imagine then they would kiss and make up because its in respective interests for Ron to win, because if Biden beats Ron in 2024 then Trump's legal issues get much much worse.

aloyisious

One thing that both parties might like, in so far as it could be applied to the other party's candidate, is a referendum to amend the section in the constitution on whom can stand for election to disbar persons with criminal conviction/s from running for the office of President. Slim chance that they actually would do it, though the thought could burn deep into those who would want to scupper the other party's candidate/s. It would stop Trump dead in his tracks without denying the voter the use of the ballot and give joy to the politicians in both parties.

duploelabs

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120933316#Comment_120933316

Is a referendum actually needed or can't the Senate pass constitutional changes with a 2/3s majority?