Donald Trump discussion Thread IX (threadbanned users listed in OP)

LuckyLloyd

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119473948#Comment_119473948

The problem with most of the above is that it is incorrect.

LuckyLloyd

The fascinating bit is "why". Why would Trump and his handlers feel compelled to break the law around sensitive materials? Why would they double down on this when contacted by the relevant authorities up to and including the issuance of a subpoena?

One can only conclude that the intent was to pick this fight and further destabilize the societal discourse in the US. Trump is almost daring the DOJ to prosecute, hoping that the relevant laws themselves can be put on the table as political issues for a new Republican Congress. I would have said this is foolhardy, but we are talking about a President who actively tried to subvert the electoral process and agitated his supporters to violent protest when that didn't work. One could surmise that the aim all along has been to provoke a conflict and be the de facto leader of one side of that conflict. We are well beyond accidents or innocent mistakes here. This looks to have been the plan all along.

Podge_irl

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119474712#Comment_119474712

I think you are assigning Trump far too much agency and credit to be honest.

pixelburp

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119474712#Comment_119474712

I think the answer is quite simple: because the Trump administration was singularly devoid of intelligence or talent (and what talent was there, quickly left once Trump was shown to be inept, and hostile to democratic normalcy); between Trump's egomania and the sycophantic detritus installed to the Admin, nobody was left to stop or at least challenge Trump from taking those actions.

McFly85

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119474712#Comment_119474712

The only thing that we know is that there’s no good reason.

It could reasonably be to increase his personal wealth by selling the information on(and there has been suspect links between him and the Saudis via a $2 billion investment loan to Kushner)

It could have been a misguided attempt at collateral against the other lawsuits coming his way. I could see him believing he had a right to that information, and would plan to return it as part of any deal he could get. Unfortunately for him if that’s the case he’s shot himself in the foot.

Or as you say, it could easily be another attempt at political destabilisation. We already have his followers asking to repeal the espionage act.

In any case, the fact that the FBI have recovered these documents means a formal charge is inevitable, and the DOJ have a 98% conviction rate. It will be very interesting to see what happens next.

Quin_Dub

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119474712#Comment_119474712

I think a lot of the responses from Trump and some of the additional stories provide insight into the "why".

Trump believes that being President makes you God/King and that simply by a wave of a hand or a verbal pronouncement that things become law and real.

He also believes that because he was President that he ultimately owns everything related to the Federal Government , again like a King.

He took the documents because he wanted to , because he believed they were his to take and his to do with as he pleased.

Based on other reports he seemed to like to take "cool" stuff from meetings including Intelligence meetings - Spy Satellite photos , Reports of military operations , letters/correspondence that mentioned his name etc.

This is a man who has never been told no his entire life and who simply does not understand the concepts of rules, regulations and oversight.

The original removal of the documents from the WH to Florida may indeed have been something of an error caused by the rushed departure - He had done absolutely nothing to prepare to leave until after January 6th remember.

I can absolutely imagine a scenario where his Private Office and personal residence were littered with documents that absolutely should not have been lying around under any circumstances. I can also see where Trump in his post January 6th panic/rush might have waved at it all and said "Send all that stuff to Mar a Lago".

That sort of covers them leaving the WH , but given that the National Archive people have been back and forth with him ever since and have retrieved more and more stuff each time they've been to Florida that's where that "it was a mistake" defence falls asunder.

That is the real unknown question - Why did he continue to obfuscate, lie and delay the return of the documents?

Why, as is being reported did one of his multitude of lawyers sign a document stating that everything had been given back in June when they absolutely had not done so?

I mean they found another 10 boxes , it's not like they found a few loose sheets of paper down the back of a cabinet.

Why did he lie about having those specific boxes and what is in them??

Sam Russell

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119474972#Comment_119474972

That is the real unknown question - Why did he continue to obfuscate, lie and delay the return of the documents?

You have to remember the fable of the scorpion and the frog. The scorpion had to get to the other side of the river and got a frog to offer him a piggy back, but the frog got him to promise not to sting him. Halfway across the scorpion stung the frog who as they both died asked 'why?'. The scorpion replied - 'because that is what I do!'

Trump knows no other way but to lie and obfuscate, delay, distract, and then lie and obfuscate some more.

Have you heard of Bart Simpson?

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119474456#Comment_119474456

Yes you have, the link to that statute was first put out by Marc Elias a few days ago and he even qualifies the applicability of the law in his thread. The NYT recycled the same thing to gain a bit of traction.

https://twitter.com/marceelias/status/1556794749377454080?s=20&t=pCmk6bBLJpjJBcNpg4DK6Q

You're putting the cart before the horse.

As of now Trump has not been charged with any violations so he's presumed innocent.

The burden is on the government to prove he broke the law not for me or anyone else to prove an exemption.

McFly85

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119475507#Comment_119475507

Thats a different statute, Elias highlights it’s relevance because it means at the very least Trump will not be able to run in 2024.

But this is more sidestepping. You stated that the president cannot mishandle classified information. I gave you the law text, where there is no clause or exemption for a president or former president.

I’ll put it another way: should formal charges be brought, what law, clause or ruling does Trump present to support your claim, that it’s not possible for a president to mishandle classified information?

Timberrrrrrrr

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119475507#Comment_119475507

"As of now Trump has not been charged with any violations so he's presumed innocent."

Strange how Trump supporters say this now but still call for Clinton and Hunter Biden to be locked up, no presumption of innocence for them?

aloyisious

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119475507#Comment_119475507

The other way one can look at this is that some days after the AG made his statement that no one was above the law, it was followed by the document seizure as the only way left to get it into Trump's thick head that all bets are off. As this has long been a media battle by Trumps choice to get hold of the White House again over the past few years, a court case is not necessary when it's the public opinion battle for the hearts and minds of the electorate jury that is the target. Convincing them that Trump thinks nothing about the US when it comes to a choice between it and his own future is what is going on right now.

Trump was on his own platform last night demanding the return of the documents claiming executive privilege and Attorney/client privilege over them. It's all about keeping the voters riled up against whatever and whomever is his target of the day. He's stopped targeting the GOP lately as he needs it's title to stake a claim for a putative candidacy.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119475649#Comment_119475649

Again, the onus is on you to prove what law he broke, not for me to prove a negative.

You can scour the internet trying to shoe horn different pieces of statue to suit your argument but it doesn't matter because the piece of legislation you keep regurgitating doesn't apply to the office of President. Federal statute does not supersede the constitution.

Please don't come back and say "ooh point me the reference where it says it doesn't apply etc etc etc". I'm not here to do your work for you and to prove Trumps innocence. The onus is on you to come up with the goods, not recycle what you picked up off twitter.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119475649#Comment_119475649

Actually, the very first sentence in this post gives it away because we all know that the objective in all of this is to prevent Trump from running again in 2024, nothing to do with National Archives. Political persecution.

Why not make "being Donald Trump" a crime an be done with it.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119475749#Comment_119475749

Well unless the FBI have found something of epic proportions they have just handed Trump the 2024 election.

Leroy42

Bren, we all know that a law exists. You have claimed that Trump is above that law by dint of him being POTUS. You have been asked to provide evidence, in law, for that assertion.

There is no need to prove that handling classified information is illegal, we have plenty of real-world convictions on that very issue. You are claiming that the law doesn't apply in this case and posters are asking for your reason for this belief.

Do you actually know it to be the case, and can put your hand on the legislation? Are you assuming it based on your interpretation of previous POTUS behaviour? Are you taking the word of Trump?

ancapailldorcha

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119475786#Comment_119475786

Sounds like you're trying to convince yourself here. The first president in history to have his home raided by law enforcement. How low a bar is that? And even Trump couldn't step over it.

He isn't getting back in. I'm all for his base desperately clinging to this because it proves they have no ideas and care about nothing but owning the libs.

None of this is even surprising. I'm expecting the announcement of the discovery of a cache of envelopes addressed to one "Mr. V. Putin, Moscow" any day now.

McFly85

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119475752#Comment_119475752

I’m not trying to prove his guilt, just that his office is not exempt from the rule of law. And I’m not scouring the internet either, just referencing the law that was detailed in the FBI warrant.

It’s funny you knew I was going to ask you to point me to the documentation that proves the law in question doesn’t apply to the office of the president! I see you reference the constitution though, so here’s the full text:

https://constitutioncenter.org/interactive-constitution/full-text

Section II details the office of the President, and says nothing about the exemption of law.

Leroy42

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119475786#Comment_119475786

You think even if Trump is found to have done nothing wrong that people will vote for him that didn't last time? On what basis? People vote for themselves, they aren't going to care that a massively wealthy individual feels hard done by.

He has been driving the witch-hunt narrative since he got the POTUS gig, yet he still lost the last election.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119475752#Comment_119475752

Your don't have to scour the internet, you just have to look at the statutes noted in the warrant

18 U.S. Code §2071 — Concealment, removal or mutilation

18 U.S. Code § 793 — Gathering, transmitting or losing defense information

18 U.S. Code § 1519 — Destruction, alteration or falsification of records in Federal investigations

None of those statutes are limited to classified material.

uptherebels

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119465953#Comment_119465953

He screamed at Germany/the EU because he wanted them to buy American LNG instead. Being energy dependent on trump would probably be as bad as energy dependent on Putin.

You will have to provide a breakdown of all these lethal arms "he" flooded Ukraine with. You can leave out the assistance package he withheld to try and coerce zelensky

Podge_irl

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119475752#Comment_119475752

the piece of legislation you keep regurgitating doesn't apply to the office of President

Trump isn't President.

Quin_Dub

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119475786#Comment_119475786

Do you honestly think that there are voters in the US who would not have already voted for Trump in 2024 that on the basis of the last few days of news are now going to think "You know what , I'm voting for Donald Trump" ?

Not a single mind will be changed based on what has happened so far.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119476207#Comment_119476207

Trump against what alternative? If he runs in against Biden he's a shoe in. Also, Democrats won't be able to rely on mail in ballots which helped Biden in the last election.

duploelabs

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119476521#Comment_119476521

He didn't beat Biden last time, in fact by trump's own metric Biden won by a landslide

Quin_Dub

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119476521#Comment_119476521

The point is that no one that was going to vote Democrat is now going to vote for Trump/GOP because of this.

The fact that the GOP are doing everything they possibly can to gerrymander the hell out of the next Election is entirely secondary to the question of whether "This has handed 2024 to Trump".

"This" has changed nothing in terms of the 2024 landscape so far.

ArmaniJeanss

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119476711#Comment_119476711

Technically it may energise the 'don't always vote coz i'm too lazy, voted for Trump last time, wasn't going to bother next time' people.

And if they vote, and the equivalents on the Dem side don't, then Trump only needs to repeat his figures from 2020 to win. So he doesn't necessarily need the Dem -> GOP swaps you referred to.

aloyisious

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119475786#Comment_119475786

Proviso of "unless" noted. It's likely that the GOP will be the winner at the ballot and not Trump [if he chooses to actually stand for office right up to and after the ballot boxes are closed. If he does run, it'll be another spur in the side of the democratic party voters to turn out and WHA.

Most people involved here would have already seen this. I took it from a Daily Mail article. It's worth noting the clauses on it instructing the officer serving the warrant to give a copy of the warrant AND a receipt for the property taken to the person from whom the property was taken, or leave the copy and receipt at the place where the property was taken. So some-one acting for Trump was served with a copy of the warrant and a receipt for property taken. As they have cast doubt on it's legality, this means Trumps lawyers will have to make court challenges to the warrant ASAP. If they don't it'll mean they accept the warrant and any evidence taken is usable in a trial of Trump in federal court.

If he was tried and convicted, it raises an intriguing question: would he ask Biden for a presidential pardon?

Akrasia

"If he was tried and convicted, it raises an intriguing question: would he ask Biden for a presidential pardon?"

He almost certainly would and Biden would probably grant it using the Nixon pardon as the precedent

Quin_Dub

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119476863#Comment_119476863

That's fair , there's definitely a possibility that it drives increased participation , but I'd also say that the effect would be pretty equal on both sides so that might be a wash in the end.

Quin_Dub

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119477110#Comment_119477110

Nixon was pardoned without ever standing trial (or even being charged) - It was a way of avoiding the trial process entirely.

That shipped has sailed for Trump - No way he gets a "preemptive" pardon from Biden. Trump would spin it as a victory and that it was a sham all along and they never had the evidence etc.

At best he might get a commuted sentence were he to get actual jail time.