Brexit discussion thread XIV (Please read OP before posting)

Kermit.de.frog

Journo with Irish Times suggesting Johnson offer us vaccines to "muddy opinion" toward the EU

https://twitter.com/NaomiOhReally/status/1367817070008799235

Kermit.de.frog

Seth Brundle wrote: »

Personally, I think that he rushed through the current agreement without too much thought.
Now that he realises it doesn't suit him, by getting some or all of the EU to not ratify it, he will try and negotiate for a new agreement (which he hopes will be more favoourable for him).

Or he wants the EU not to ratify and that's no deal by the back door essentially.

As long as it's not his government pulling the trigger.

It would bring massive consequences for the UK though.

Enzokk

Kermit.de.frog wrote: »

Journo with Irish Times suggesting Johnson offer us vaccines to "muddy opinion" toward the EU

https://twitter.com/NaomiOhReally/status/1367817070008799235

I know this is not your opinion but there is no way we should accept vaccines from the UK while they are trying to pull us out of the EU against our will. It will be like offering someone a chocolate as you are robbing in front of their eyes.

We will receive our vaccines when we get them, even if it takes a month or two longer. But the damage Johnson and the UK is threatening to us will take decades to reverse if they get their way and we are either out of the EU or we have a border on this island.

Enzokk

Kermit.de.frog wrote: »

Or he wants the EU not to ratify and that's no deal by the back door essentially.

As long as it's not his government pulling the trigger.

It would bring massive consequences for the UK though.

Still has the WA which has the NI Protocol that is causing all the problems, already signed and in operation. No FTA deal would just put more barriers between NI and UK and UK and EU and do nothing to alleviate the current problems NI business are having. It will also make a US deal impossible for the next 4 years, so not sure what they are doing other than just being difficult.

Jizique

Kermit.de.frog wrote: »

Journo with Irish Times suggesting Johnson offer us vaccines to "muddy opinion" toward the EU

https://twitter.com/NaomiOhReally/status/1367817070008799235

He has already offered us a role in “their” World Cup, and we fell for it, hook, line and sinker

ancapailldorcha

Kermit.de.frog wrote: »

Journo with Irish Times suggesting Johnson offer us vaccines to "muddy opinion" toward the EU

https://twitter.com/NaomiOhReally/status/1367817070008799235

Why would opinion be muddied?

There is no reason for Ireland to leave the EU. No benefit whatsoever based on how Brexit is going.

When you look at how Scotland, Wales and the regions have fared, anything that remotely resembles any sort of alignment with London over Brussels just looks ridiculous. It stinks of Imperialism that London thinks that Dublin will just eat out of the palm of their hand because vaccines.

Kermit.de.frog

ancapailldorcha wrote: »

Why would opinion be muddied?

There is no reason for Ireland to leave the EU. No benefit whatsoever based on how Brexit is going.

When you look at how Scotland, Wales and the regions have fared, anything that remotely resembles any sort of alignment with London over Brussels just looks ridiculous. It stinks of Imperialism that London thinks that Dublin will just eat out of the palm of their hand because vaccines.

I agree and I'm critical of that tweet.

If we were to take vaccines our position on Brexit would be hopelessly undermined.

And I was against the nonsense about the world cup this week on the same basis.

Johnson phoned the Taoiseach before that and never mentioned their intention to violate agreements.

Leroy42

Kermit, you seem to inhabit the same world that Brexiteers do. In that either everything is great or everything is terrible. I think most Irish people can separate the issues.

Vaccines or not the one and only thing about the EU, and we can appreciate that even if we were not aligned to the EU, would be not be faring any better as history tells us that our government is largely useless at things like this.

The WC bid is just that, a nice little distraction, something that if we get it would be a nice sideshow, but won't make much difference to the vast majority of people. People don't see the UK as the enemy, so having us work together is not some movement away from the EU.

The Raging Bile Duct

ancapailldorcha wrote: »

Why would opinion be muddied?

There is no reason for Ireland to leave the EU. No benefit whatsoever based on how Brexit is going.

When you look at how Scotland, Wales and the regions have fared, anything that remotely resembles any sort of alignment with London over Brussels just looks ridiculous. It stinks of Imperialism that London thinks that Dublin will just eat out of the palm of their hand because vaccines.

You've a lot of vaccine envy being stoked up in Ireland and how the EU are making a hames of it compared to the UK by the likes of Ciara Kelly on Newstalk. A gesture like that unfortunately would probably get a lot of positive coverage over here.

johnnyskeleton

Irelands specific and stated policy is that it isnt breaking ranks with the EU over vaccines. They said this in relation to other European Countries getting vaccines from China and Russia.

If we were inclined to break such ranks, id imagine that we would get the Chinese vaccine. Its cheaper, more readily available and we enjoy reasonably good relations with China.

Also, the UK needs vaccines. I appreciate that some journalists these days dont actually look behind the headlines, but if she did she would realise that the UK has so far administered 20m of approximate 120m doses required.

yagan

The IT journalist who tweeted that is overtly promoting a political anti EU agenda in Ireland far removed from the impartiality to report.

Does she have form?

ancapailldorcha

Kermit.de.frog wrote: »

I agree and I'm critical of that tweet.

If we were to take vaccines our position on Brexit would be hopelessly undermined.

And I was against the nonsense about the world cup this week on the same basis.

Johnson phoned the Taoiseach before that and never mentioned their intention to violate agreements.

Well, unless there's been a confirmed offer of vaccines from London to Dublin, I don't see the point of worrying about anything being muddied or undermined.

There's no way the current insular nationalist government presiding here will be exporting any vaccines before the vast majority of people here are vaccinated. It's senseless and it'll attract the same sort of ire that some people reserved for the foreign aid budget. Moreso, in fact as it'll be to an EU member state and that it'll be Ireland of all countries.

If vaccines are offered as a gift, I see no issue in accepting them but otherwise the British should be treated as the bad actors they've proven themselves to be.

yagan

ancapailldorcha wrote: »

If vaccines are offered as a gift, I see no issue in accepting them but otherwise the British should be treated as the bad actors they've proven themselves to be.

All very principled but we're talking about a Fianna Fail led government. The last time that happened they boasted about the cheapest bank bailout in history (in a very bojo swagger I must add) and then when it went tits up they stabbed the EU in the back by saying "the EU made us do it" and blamed the nation with the "we all partied" slock.

I don't trust Martin to see beyond his dwindling twitchy voter base who have zero qualms about selling children.

The Raging Bile Duct

johnnyskeleton wrote: »

Also, the UK needs vaccines. I appreciate that some journalists these days dont actually look behind the headlines, but if she did she would realise that the UK has so far administered 20m of approximate 120m doses required.

I don't know if I've seen any journalists here looking behind the headlines. The reporting on vaccines has been very unbalanced and for the most part completely unhinged.

The Raging Bile Duct

yagan wrote: »

All very principled but we're talking about a Fianna Fail led government. The last time that happened they boasted about the cheapest bank bailout in history (in a very bojo swagger I must add) and then when it went tits up they stabbed the EU in the back by saying "the EU made us do it" and blamed the nation with the "we all partied" slock.

I don't trust Martin to see beyond his dwindling twitchy voter base who have zero qualms about selling children.

Was it not Kenny that came out with the 'we all lost the run of ourselves' line?

BlitzKrieg

Kermit.de.frog wrote: »

Journo with Irish Times suggesting Johnson offer us vaccines to "muddy opinion" toward the EU

https://twitter.com/NaomiOhReally/status/1367817070008799235

This would require Boris Johnson caring about anything outside of England (and yes I specifically said England)

Hurrache

Kermit.de.frog wrote: »

Journo with Irish Times suggesting Johnson offer us vaccines to "muddy opinion" toward the EU

https://twitter.com/NaomiOhReally/status/1367817070008799235

It's a pretty wild take on it anyway, I'll give her that.

ancapailldorcha

yagan wrote: »

All very principled but we're talking about a Fianna Fail led government. The last time that happened they boasted about the cheapest bank bailout in history (in a very bojo swagger I must add) and then when it went tits up they stabbed the EU in the back by saying "the EU made us do it" and blamed the nation with the "we all partied" slock.

I don't trust Martin to see beyond his dwindling twitchy voter base who have zero qualms about selling children.

That doesn't compare with the leader of the party of business saying "F*ck business" and then blaming business for being caught short because Brexit wasn't defined until the eleventh hour.

I'll be the first to admit my knowledge of Martin is lacking but he's not going to do anything too stupid. Ireland will recover as time goes on and more and more vaccines become available. We have no idea how badly the hit to the recovery here in the UK will be.

yagan

The Raging Bile Duct wrote: »

Was it not Kenny that came out with the 'we all lost the run of ourselves' line?

I emigrated before the FG/Lb government came in and I distinctly remember that phrase being bandied about by FFers trying to deflect blame when the IMF bailout happened. Another chestnut Lenehan Jr used a lot was "no one could have seen Lehman's coming!"

Martin had to correct his assertion that there wasn't a bank bailout only recently. They haven't changed, all spin, zero substance. The SD were lucky to lose Donnelly to them.

Fianna Fail are a national liability. As like Johnson they only care about their core me fein voter base, which is actually smaller now thanks to Covid.

Hurrache

Jizique wrote: »

He has already offered us a role in “their” World Cup, and we fell for it, hook, line and sinker

"We" didn't. I'm sure many think it's a nonsense.

CelticRambler

Kermit.de.frog wrote: »

Journo with Irish Times suggesting Johnson offer us vaccines to "muddy opinion" toward the EU

D'you mean out of the stock of vaccines that the UK has to import from India because they don't have enough for themselves? :rolleyes:

I'd say Ireland could quite easily get the French or the Germans or the Belgians to send over their thousands of unused doses of the AZ vaccine if there was any great demand for them in Ireland.

yagan

ancapailldorcha wrote: »

That doesn't compare with the leader of the party of business saying "F*ck business" and then blaming business for being caught short because Brexit wasn't defined until the eleventh hour.

I strongly disagree.

Only in the last few months Martin had to correct his assertion in the Dail that there wasn't a bank bailout. If he had a majority like Bojo he'd have us believe the IMF bailout never happened.

Bertie with his "cribbing and moaning" jibe and Lenehan Jr with his "cheapest bailout in history" are pure Brexit fantasy land thinking.

Lenehen Jr actually said there couldn't be an asset flight as Ireland was an island, pure Bojo donkey balls.

ancapailldorcha

BlitzKrieg wrote: »

This would require Boris Johnson caring about anything outside of England (and yes I specifically said England)

I don't think it's England at all.

I think that it's a combination of consistently choosing the path of least resistance in the short term without regard for the long term implications that may be involved and pandering to an increasingly right wing nationalist base.

On the first, they took whatever deal they could get done for that reason. It got done. Then of course came the long term consequences the solution to which is apparently to try and undermine said agreement. Of course, this is merely future Britain's problem but nobody seems to be bothered by that. The Unionists are but they're happy to align themselves with the Lions eating Unionists party yet again and no doubt they'll somehow manage to be surprised when they see large cats vomiting up sashes down the line.

On the second, it's all become quite tedious. The vaccine nationalism, the English exceptionalism and the simple pettiness of pretending to care about NI as a response to something the European Commission nearly did. With each passing day, more and more people are immunised and the "We have vaccines but they don't" argument loses a tiny bit more of its appeal.

ancapailldorcha

yagan wrote: »

I strongly disagree.

Only in the last few months Martin had to correct his assertion in the Dail that there wasn't a bank bailout. If he had a majority like Bojo he'd have us believe the IMF bailout never happened.

Bertie with his "cribbing and moaning" jibe and Lenehan Jr with his "cheapest bailout in history" are pure Brexit fantasy land thinking.

Lenehen Jr actually said there couldn't be an asset flight as Ireland was an island, pure Bojo donkey balls.

Would you mind taking this to a different thread, please as this is getting a bit off topic. Thanks.

yagan

ancapailldorcha wrote: »

Would you mind taking this to a different thread, please as this is getting a bit off topic. Thanks.

Fine. Just a reminder that you were the one who started the comparison when you mentioned Johnson's "**** business" line.

On topic I still think Fianna Fail are a national liability and the more Brexit can be left to Coveney the better. The last election was still FFs second worse result so I will concede they do lack their former swagger.

I don't trust Martin an inch with Brexit and I was proved right when he turned on our EU allies in defence of Britain.

CelticRambler

Hurrache wrote: »

I think the reality is that Johnson used the agreement to win an election and play to his base, didn't realise WTF was actually in it, they didn't allow a debate in parliament, and now realise how awful Brexit is and trying to provoke the EU in returning to the negotiating table as they don't have the courage to hold their hands up to how much of a mess they're in.

That may be the strategy, but it's not going to work, because just about all of the supposed problems with the NI Protocol are a direct result of the Johnson administration not being ready (and/or able) to do what they said they could and would do.

So every single time they try to get the EU to come back to the negotiating table, the EU will smile politely and say, "we'll think about it ... just as soon as you've demonstrated to our satisfaction that you can handle the trade across your internal border in line with what we've already agreed."

Every unilateral breach of the NIP is an implicit admission by the UK that they are either incompetent or insincere (or both). The domestic voter might not care about this, but all players on the international stage will be paying attention and making notes.

I read an article earlier today suggesting that the curious strengthening of GBP in recent weeks is due to the Chinese (whose economy is "suffering" a post-Covid boom) buying Sterling instead of dollars, so as not to upset the Americans at a time of delicate rebalancing or relations. That's the kind of thing that this amateurish administration wouldn't notice or do anything about, but would certainly take credit for and spin it as some kind of validation of Brexit.

Brussels Sprout

yagan wrote: »

The IT journalist who tweeted that is overtly promoting a political anti EU agenda in Ireland far removed from the impartiality to report.

Does she have form?

No. She's the Irish Times European correspondent. It was a strange tweet but she certainly does not have an anti-EU agenda.

Strazdas

Kermit.de.frog wrote: »

Journo with Irish Times suggesting Johnson offer us vaccines to "muddy opinion" toward the EU

https://twitter.com/NaomiOhReally/status/1367817070008799235

One of the tweeters points out underneath that the UK probably has no surplus vaccines to give. Despite giving the impression they are awash with vaccines, over 30m Britons have yet to receive their second dose.

yagan

Strazdas wrote: »

One of the tweeters points out underneath that the UK probably has no surplus vaccines to give. Despite giving the impression they are awash with vaccines, over 30m Britons have yet to receive their second dose.

I can't remember if I read it here or on another thread that a couple of weeks ago UK GP group tweeted a letter stating that the second dose of Pfizer was going to delayed beyond the 12 week gap.

BonnieSituation

The Raging Bile Duct wrote: »

Was it not Kenny that came out with the 'we all lost the run of ourselves' line?

But sure "we all partied":

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YK7w6fXoYxo

And that neatly leads us to what worries me most about the vaccine "issue"...

---

The IT reporter throwing out nonsense like that is just seeking to start a story. That's not reporting, that's newsmaking, and it's wholly inappropriate.

It will gain traction over the next few days and then MM will be asked about accepting vaccines if they were offered and lo and behold we have a story about MM rejecting/accepting vaccines from the UK and that will inevitably develop into a "'Big Bad EU' wouldn't let plucky Ireland take the Great British offer of vaccines."

You can see it a mile off how this 'story' will be pushed.

As stated above by others re the quality of FF in power, we unfortunately have a Taoiseach who has all the political nous and patience of a toddler with a rattle and he worries me whenever he has to make a statement or pronouncement so anything like this is unwelcome in the extreme.

It's worrisome that he is so easily led as seen during the A16 meltdown. So this will not inspire confidence.