Brexit discussion thread XIV (Please read OP before posting)

Sam Russell

CelticRambler wrote: »

Not necessarily easy or obvious, but the article refers to another chapter of Anglo-Irish tension - the Famine - during which we used wheat donated by an Arab prince to effect a long-term adjustment to our bread-making tradition.

It will be interesting to look back, in fifteen or twenty years' time, and see to what extent Brexit permanently shifted Irish consumer habits towards either the Continent, or indeed towards one or more of the emerging markets beloved of the Brexiters.

It was the lack of decent hard wheat following WW II that caused the creation of the Chorleywood loaf.

It was a process that allowed soft wheat and loads of yeast and much friction to produce the 'sliced pan' to be produced in a shorter time, and at lower cost using British wheat. Chorleywood bread adds preservatives that mean the bread goes mouldy before it goes stale due to its higher water content. (That is a common way to make food cheaper - add water). Because it was cheap, it became the staple, and the process was copied here and in other places, but not so much in Europe where they like their bread to taste like real bread.

It is awful stuff, and has little resemblance to real bread in taste, texture, or food value. We should move back to the old soda bread we used to make.

Soft wheat is used to make cakes and the likes where its high starch and low gluten allow cakes to be soft and melt in the mouth, while hard wheat is good for making bread as it is high in gluten which allows the bread to rise properly. Chorleywood bread has to be cooked in a tin as it cannot support itself while cooking owing to its lack of gluten.

Akrasia

yagan wrote: »

Actually joining Schengen doesn't nullify the CTA as the residency rights betwixt the UK and Ireland are independent pieces of domestic law.

As is we start sharing information via the Schengen Information System this month.

We can do this now because the NI border is in the Irish Sea, pre WA, it would have required a border on the island of Ireland which would have reached the GFA and brought the IRA out of storage pretty rapidly

strandroad

zell12 wrote: »

Indo leads today with bread and pizzas set to rise 9% due to Brexit 'rule of origin' tariffs, apparently nobody eats sliced pans on the continent
There is just one Irish flour mill, in Portarlington, Co Laois, which is run by Odlums and which produces ‘retail’ flour, or packets of flour, for consumers.
https://www.thejournal.ie/cost-of-bread-flour-5351803-Feb2021/

This article is quite opening in how it exposes entrenched attitudes. Apparently we need to import *pizza* flour from the UK or we are stuck. Just think about it for a minute.

strandroad

Sam Russell wrote: »

It was the lack of decent hard wheat following WW II that caused the creation of the Chorleywood loaf.

Excellent post, sliced pan is a highly processed food and the introduction of the industrial Chorleywood process is how the UK killed off its local bakeries, then Ireland followed. It's one of the main contributors to food waste also, since mould develops so quickly. If we get to see more soda and sourdough options as a result of Brexit surely it's a good thing?

Jizique

strandroad wrote: »

This article is quite opening in how it exposes entrenched attitudes. Apparently we need to import *pizza* flour from the UK or we are stuck. Just think about it for a minute.

I didn’t think it is possible under the new owners, but the indo is an even bigger rag than under Denis.

reslfj

yagan wrote: »

Actually joining Schengen doesn't nullify the CTA as the residency rights betwixt the UK and Ireland are independent pieces of domestic law.

The CTA has traditionally been based on a MoU between the UK and Ireland. Has this changed?

Lars


PS! Yes the CTA is a strange mix of travelling rights, residency rights, the right to work and more.

Fionn1952

strandroad wrote: »

This article is quite opening in how it exposes entrenched attitudes. Apparently we need to import *pizza* flour from the UK or we are stuck. Just think about it for a minute.

Considering I have two different brands of Italian Tipo 00 flour in my cupboard already, I suspect such fears around pizza flour may be overblown alright.

I'd imagine premade/processed bread products would be more impacted, at least in the short term.

rock22

looksee wrote: »

I don't want to go down an off-topic rabbit hole, but it isn't quite as simple as that. The kind of bread we prefer to eat depends on the type of flour used and North American wheat is quite different to Irish/European wheat - not better or worse but different when it comes to making the bread that Irish consumers prefer. There is an article here https://www.irishtimes.com/life-and-style/food-and-drink/our-daily-bread-ireland-s-grain-growers-and-millers-1.3612824

The point I am making is that there are not always easy and obvious solutions to problems that arise.

The article originally linked to makes clear that the bread we, and UK, prefer needs US wheat. That is the reason given for not importing from EU.

I am simply making the point that Brexit issues can be seen as a opportunity for someone to import direct, from whereever we want our wheat.

CelticRambler

Sam Russell wrote: »

Because it was cheap, it became the staple, and the process was copied here and in other places, but not so much in Europe where they like their bread to taste like real bread.

Hmmm ... if only life were as simple as that! :rolleyes: Here in the (self-proclaimed) culinary heart of the universe, the French have a great love of pain de mie - what we would call ... sliced pan. In this case, it was the Americans, based just up the road from where I live, who persuaded the French to industrialise their bread-making in exactly the same way as the British (and Irish) did. De Gaulle told the Americans to leave, and they did, but they left their bread behind. The result is that we now have, here in France, a disgustingly sweet American version of sliced pan sold in massive quantities in every supermarket; and (believe it or not) French tourists who rave about the superior quality of Irish white bread. :pac:

All of which is to say that a mixture of historical incidents, industrial evolution and bog-standard aggressive marketing can do much more to shift a nation's habits than any one political party's agenda. The Brits might well find that they have a taste for shellfish and offal, but chances are it'll be a European firm that spots the commercial opportunity and persuades them to try a continental recipe by smothering it with Union flags and lots of Britishy words.

BonnieSituation

CelticRambler wrote: »

Hmmm ... if only life were as simple as that! :rolleyes: Here in the (self-proclaimed) culinary heart of the universe, the French have a great love of pain de mie - what we would call ... sliced pan. In this case, it was the Americans, based just up the road from where I live, who persuaded the French to industrialise their bread-making in exactly the same way as the British (and Irish) did. De Gaulle told the Americans to leave, and they did, but they left their bread behind. The result is that we now have, here in France, a disgustingly sweet American version of sliced pan sold in massive quantities in every supermarket; and (believe it or not) French tourists who rave about the superior quality of Irish white bread. :pac:

All of which is to say that a mixture of historical incidents, industrial evolution and bog-standard aggressive marketing can do much more to shift a nation's habits than any one political party's agenda. The Brits might well find that they have a taste for shellfish and offal, but chances are it'll be a European firm that spots the commercial opportunity and persuades them to try a continental recipe by smothering it with Union flags and lots of Britishy words.

It is funny that for all its apparent horror, the sliced pan we have is so much better than the attempts elsewhere.

Plus you can't get batch. And that's criminal.

Sam Russell

CelticRambler wrote: »

Hmmm ... if only life were as simple as that! :rolleyes: Here in the (self-proclaimed) culinary heart of the universe, the French have a great love of pain de mie - what we would call ... sliced pan. In this case, it was the Americans, based just up the road from where I live, who persuaded the French to industrialise their bread-making in exactly the same way as the British (and Irish) did. De Gaulle told the Americans to leave, and they did, but they left their bread behind. The result is that we now have, here in France, a disgustingly sweet American version of sliced pan sold in massive quantities in every supermarket; and (believe it or not) French tourists who rave about the superior quality of Irish white bread. :pac:

All of which is to say that a mixture of historical incidents, industrial evolution and bog-standard aggressive marketing can do much more to shift a nation's habits than any one political party's agenda. The Brits might well find that they have a taste for shellfish and offal, but chances are it'll be a European firm that spots the commercial opportunity and persuades them to try a continental recipe by smothering it with Union flags and lots of Britishy words.

Chorleywood bread was launched in 1961. De Gaulle came later. But as you say, marketing is everything - well - after price. Make it cheap enough, and then marketing will make up the difference.

It is disgusting stuff, and may well account for the rise in obesity in the UK.

The British already have a taste for offal - they call the product the British sausage.

L1011

strandroad wrote: »

This article is quite opening in how it exposes entrenched attitudes. Apparently we need to import *pizza* flour from the UK or we are stuck. Just think about it for a minute.

Much of that pizza flour is likely used to make frozen pizza for re-export to the UK seeing as we make a huge % of all Europes frozen pizzas.

zell12

Indo article is up now
https://www.independent.ie/business/farming/agri-business/agri-food/bread-and-pizza-prices-now-set-for-a-price-rise-with-brexit-40165546.html

Ireland imports around 90% of its flour from UK, say Bord Bia. But some of that flour contains 45% Canadian wheat. And complex ‘rules of origin’ limits allow for a maximum of 15% grain from outside the EU or UK. Any amount above that threshold incurs a tariff of €172 per tonne.
“It’s not just as easy as switching the Canadian wheat for another. That takes a bit of time. What do bakers do in the meantime? Pay the tariff? That’s expensive. Switch the grist? Then you end up with a different product, which customers might not like.”

selectamatic

Kermit.de.frog wrote: »

For decades there was the mindset that we had to use the land bridge for some reason. I guess it was just embedded.

It's been exposed now that that was never the case (at least in the last 20 to 30 years). It was just something we did.

The hauliers won't go back to that now.

No the landbridge was the cheapest and quickest freight route to the continent. It also tied in perfectly on a logistics standpoint for hauliers that had operations both in Ireland and the uk.

Backloads, multiple delivery stops etc. Can all increase profitability and effectiveness.

It was something we did because it made sense however it no longer makes sense due to brexit and that's just the long and the short if it really.

Infini

_Puma_ wrote: »

This is the key bluff by the tory brexit Demagogues. Exploiting this is our only weapon against this type of "diplomacy" someone like Frost is going to bring to the table.

They are relying on us doing nothing. Time to get real by the Irish government in reacting to what brexit means for us and the future of our state.

Ireland should be focusing on explortitary talks with other European leaders about what can be implemented at our ports to ensure the integrity of the SM and implemented rapid. We should be looking at what kind checks can be carried out on a rolling "soft" boarder basis to avoid us breaching the GF agreement ourselves.

There is no other valid way out of this. The destruction of the good Friday agreement (by making it superflous) and the folding in of the ROI into a new British customs territory is their goal. Then they will begin real diplomacy with the European Union.

We will not be allowed to become casualties of brexit, the goodwill is there from our colleagues in Europe. To allow it to happen will be a failure on our part.

The Tory state should be made feel the ramifications both in the courts and in their international trade and diplomacy. Our soft diplomacy power should now be put to good use against them especially with the US.

MM and our government have performed very poorly so far since January with reacting to this new tory "diplomacy". The world cup nonsense, the non reaction to the statements by loyalist terrorists, even our statement on the "threat" of the article 16 invocation should have been handled better internally. It all played into this new Tory diplomacy.

Tony Connelly got it spot on this morning. "A worrying collapse in trust" but for those paying attention its just the outcome of this new diplomacy by the people in power in brexit Britain.

My honest opinion is these Tory feckers need to feel the hurt in order to realise that any provocation will ultimately come back to bite them. It's just going to be constant games and using NI as a pawn in all this as they ultimately don't give a damn about anyone on either side of the border but themselves.

We ultimately have the best hand right now though, we will always have EU support, the A16 issue was an unintentional mistake that happened with all the mess of covid going on but was quickly corrected. That happened because people here are listened too and told how it's being perceived. Biden is also quite friendly towards Ireland and actually likes the country and the democrats have a thin but workable majority in both houses for the next 2 years at least.

What needs to happen ultimately though is that the EU needs to basically make it clear that if they behave like this, breaking their word and undermining trust and even willing to undermine peace for their ideological delusions that there will be consequences. Hitting them by withdrawing derogations in key areas like finance for example would certainly put the Tories under pressure. They might be able to hide things behind covid at the moment but that wont last them long.

We should not bend to any sort of blackmail from Boris and his friends, if there's one thing this whole Brexit mess has made clear its that Tory Britain's word is worthless, they're charlatans, liars, deceivers and chancers. They're not worthy of capable of being trusted. They're also cowards when put under actual pressure and will cave when there's serious consequences because for all their bravado their positions are bluster and that's all they're capable of. Honestly I'd start by not giving them any derogations on the food stuffs, make it clear that while there's a consideration on the EU side and a willingness to be reasonable, if the Tories break their agreement and refuse to honour their commitments there will be no derogations purely on the grounds of trust. If they make threat's, take them to court. If they keep acting up make it clear that they risk the EU parliament declining to ratify the TCA and they suffer the immediate consequences of the Brexit Provisions all being null and void on May 1st.

The Withdrawal Agreement is separate from the TCA but we should basically get the US to put pressure on the UK by saying if the UK takes steps to undermine the GFA by refusing to honour it's commitments it will retaliate by hitting them with economic sanctions. It would most certainly be a shot across the bow they would be unable to ignore.

yagan

reslfj wrote: »

The CTA has traditionally been based on a MoU between the UK and Ireland. Has this changed?

Lars


PS! Yes the CTA is a strange mix of travelling rights, residency rights, the right to work and more.

It exists and acknowledged as existing parallel to but not legally binding like Schengen when the UK was part of the EU.

If either Ireland or the UK altered the current residency rights betwixt the two state it would undermine the Belfast Agreement, which is what the DUP was seeking to do in campaigning for Brexit.

As it was Britain that altered the foundations of the Belfast Agreement it had to implement the Irish Sea customs border in order to uphold it at the UN security council.

Strazdas

SNIP. No image dumps please.

I cannot link to the article about Lord Frost comments as it is hidden behind a paywall : only option was to post (not dump) the image.

Strazdas

Strazdas wrote: »

SNIP. No image dumps please.

I cannot link to the article about Lord Frost comments as it is hidden behind a paywall : only option was to post (not dump) the image.

What was the jist of it

Nate--IRL--

"Lord Frost tells EU to stop sulking over Brexit and make a success of it" was the gist.

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2021/03/06/lord-frost-tells-eu-stop-sulking-brexit-make-success/

Nate

BlitzKrieg

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2021/mar/06/food-scarcity-fears-prompt-plan-to-ease-post-brexit-checks-on-eu-imports

The Observer has been told by multiple industry sources that Boris Johnson’s new Brexit minister, Lord Frost, is considering allowing “lighter touch” controls on imports from 1 April than are currently planned, and scaling back plans for full customs checks, including physical inspections, which are due to begin on 1 July.

The UK is free to be as light touch or as heavy handed as they want to be with their import rules

but I am reminded that this 'light touch' not enforcing the available rules is the same route they took that led to the core issue they had with the EU to begin with (Immigration) so to me it feels like they're setting themselves up for another trip.

Also I'm not sure how almost schoolyard like negotiations of "Look I'm not following the rules and you shouldnt either" actually works in the real world.

The UK does have arguably the worst track record in Europe for screwing itself over because of lax adherence to the law (between mad cow disease and foot and mouth) so I doubt anyone else in Europe is going to follow a similar policy. It all just feels like some ticking bomb to me.

Strazdas

Nate--IRL-- wrote: »

"Lord Frost tells EU to stop sulking over Brexit and make a success of it" was the gist.

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2021/03/06/lord-frost-tells-eu-stop-sulking-brexit-make-success/

Nate

He also claims that Britain's successful vaccine rollout is down to Brexit. A complete falsehood, as the UK was free to sign its own unilateral contract with AstraZeneca outside of the EU procurement programme.

Jizique

Strazdas wrote: »

He also claims that Britain's successful vaccine rollout is down to Brexit. A complete falsehood, as the UK was free to sign its own unilateral contract with AstraZeneca outside of the EU procurement programme.

They have to maintain that narrative as it is all they have

Kermit.de.frog

I note Frost deliberately refers to "Ireland Protocol" and not "Northern Ireland Protocol". Interesting. Language is key and precise in these articles.

HalloweenJack

I've only seen a snippet of the text on Rte but I struggle to see how such a comment is anything other than ****-stirring. And if they claim it's not then their level of negotiating is disgraceful and they seem to be pupils of Donald Trump but we already knew this.

Akrasia

BlitzKrieg wrote: »

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2021/mar/06/food-scarcity-fears-prompt-plan-to-ease-post-brexit-checks-on-eu-imports



The UK is free to be as light touch or as heavy handed as they want to be with their import rules

but I am reminded that this 'light touch' not enforcing the available rules is the same route they took that led to the core issue they had with the EU to begin with (Immigration) so to me it feels like they're setting themselves up for another trip.

Also I'm not sure how almost schoolyard like negotiations of "Look I'm not following the rules and you shouldnt either" actually works in the real world.

The UK does have arguably the worst track record in Europe for screwing itself over because of lax adherence to the law (between mad cow disease and foot and mouth) so I doubt anyone else in Europe is going to follow a similar policy. It all just feels like some ticking bomb to me.

If the UK publicly eases controls on its imports, it means the EU has an even stronger motivation to enforce the UK/EU border because there is a greater risk that the EU could be flooded with substandard/illegal imports via the UK

Leroy42

Akrasia wrote: »

If the UK publicly eases controls on its imports, it means the EU has an even stronger motivation to enforce the UK/EU border because there is a greater risk that the EU could be flooded with substandard/illegal imports via the UK

And less incentive to give up anything as essentially the UK have no border controls. So exports to UK will remain unaffected.

Clearly, Frost is looking for a fight. The UK needs to drag this into an argument. EU need to stay calm and not rise to the bait.

They have a deal, they have might and right on their side. If going to reply simply ask what particular issues they have, how have they tried to solve them within the structure of the agreement and if not what their solution would be.

The deal is done, there is no need to work with the UK to achieve solutions, those solutions have already been agreed

murphaph

Akrasia wrote: »

If the UK publicly eases controls on its imports, it means the EU has an even stronger motivation to enforce the UK/EU border because there is a greater risk that the EU could be flooded with substandard/illegal imports via the UK

If the UK eases controls on imports from outside the EU and the NIP is being ignored to the point that dangerous goods might enter NI from GB then Ireland won't need too much encouragement from our EU partners at all to begin fairly rigorous checks along the land border. We won't want it getting into the republic, never mind the rest of the single market.

Several Chinese manufacturers put poisonous melamine in their baby formula not so long ago and 6 babies died and very many became seriously ill, developing agonising kidney stones. Many of us parents on this side of the world will remember the shortages of baby formula as the Chinese scrambled to buy stuff made mostly from trusted Irish milk and trusted Irish formula manufacturers.

CelticRambler

BlitzKrieg wrote: »

The UK is free to be as light touch or as heavy handed as they want to be with their import rules

but I am reminded that this 'light touch' not enforcing the available rules is the same route they took that led to the core issue they had with the EU to begin with (Immigration) so to me it feels like they're setting themselves up for another trip.

Leroy42 wrote: »

And less incentive to give up anything as essentially the UK have no border controls. So exports to UK will remain unaffected.

If the "light touch" reports are true, then not only are they signalling to the EU that the TCA isn't worth the paper it was written on, but combined with their unilateral reinterpretation of the NIP, they're also telling the rest of the world that there's no point in doing any kind of trade deal with the UK: sell any old crap to us, we're not going to check it; and don't bother asking us to promise anything for you, because we can't be trusted.

Zubeneschamali

murphaph wrote: »

If the UK eases controls on imports from outside the EU

And of course if the apply a light touch to EU imports but not China And the US, their pals at the WTO will have words.

Akrasia

The EU commission tweeted out today a reminder of how import controls protect EU citizens from dangerous unregulated products including fake Covid vaccines and dangerous children’s toys

https://ec.europa.eu/commission/presscorner/detail/en/ip_21_814

In 2020, authorities from the 31 participating countries of the Safety Gate network (EU Member States plus Norway, Iceland, Liechtenstein and the UK) exchanged a total of 2,253 alerts on measures taken against dangerous products through the system. They reacted with 5,377 follow-up actions. This represents an increase of more than 20% from the 2019 number of follow-ups.

The UK is a part of the ‘Safety gate’ initiative but if they refuse to enforce border controls on imports they will be less able to prevent their market from being flooded with these kinds of cheap, dangerous and toxic consumer goods