Brexit discussion thread XIV (Please read OP before posting)

fly_agaric

eoinbn wrote: »

Send a former member of a communist party and a self proclaimed marxist to talk to the US Congress. That will go well.
It is absolute insanity that the faith of Europe depends on the clowns that we send to the EU. The whole project needs to be completely rethought or scrapped.

I don't know the man's history or abilities (and this is offtopic, but only about as much as we already are!) but sending over "clowns" to the EU as Commissioners would be something that the member state governments are ultimately responsible for (if they make the mistake of treating their appointments to it like that).

At least in Ireland's case, I don't think we've generally sent clowns in that most (all?) of the Commissioners have been at least capable of doing their job even if politically radioactive at home.

Beechwoodspark

Would agree. Coveney is defintely the man for the job at the moment.

Glad he was retained as foreign minister and not some “newbie” parachuted in when the govt was formed.

Seth Brundle

Mod: three NI related posts have been moved to the Brexit & NI thread

Strazdas

Beechwoodspark wrote: »

Would agree. Coveney is defintely the man for the job at the moment.

Glad he was retained as foreign minister and not some “newbie” parachuted in when the govt was formed.

One thing that mightn't have been anticipated was just how sour relations would be between the UK and EU at present (mainly down to bad faith and eejitry from the Brexiteers). It's a good job Coveney is still in place, with these guys kicking off.

Sam Russell

If the UK were to offer vaccines to Ireland, it would make sense if it was done by allowing anyone living within say 10 km south of the border to attend clinics in NI to get the jab. This could be done without explicit sanction from either the UK or Ireland.

It would just be a public health initiative by the NI executive.

Hurrache

correct horse battery staple wrote: »

Was just told by someone of Brexiteer leaning from across pond that Ireland turned down vaccines offered so generously by UK

Funny how someone predicted this few pages back on this thread, tabloids just create their own reality over there.

Show them this, a massive amount of vaccines left the EU for the UK, with a fat 0 coming the other way. The UK gets the AZ vaccine from all 4 sites in the UK and the EU, but AZ are only supplying the EU from the 2 sites in the EU.

https://twitter.com/DaveKeating/status/1369600881742778371

https://twitter.com/DaveKeating/status/1369638267700846595

McGiver

Hurrache wrote:

Show them this, a massive amount of vaccines left the EU for the UK, with a fat 0 coming the other way. The UK gets the AZ vaccine from all 4 sites in the UK and the EU, but AZ are only supplying the EU from the 2 sites in the EU.

As I said. Totally discredited dodgy company. Medium size pharma company who can't deliver on their contracts. And succumbed to the political pressure from the BJ regime. And because they're not a large company (like JJ, Pfizer etc) under that pressure they can basically only deliver to the UK or smaller customers (Canada is some 25m people). The EU is too large of a customer for them. No way they can deliver vaccines on aglobal scale in timely manner.

Now, the whole AZ issue is all UK propaganda, because they like chest thumping and also need to cover up the 120k dead (and rising) and Brexit damage. They've nothing left so they spin and spin. And europhobes and Brexiter trolls, bots and fifth column expats in Ireland help to amplify the propaganda here. It's absolutely disgusting that the UK false narrative has taken hold in Irish media and public discourse. Constant comparison with the UK - UK good, EU bad.
The Republic should never have to compare itself with the UK in anything. The right comparison for Ireland is Wales (bar vaccines). And I think Ireland does very well well there!

I was listening Czech radio 1 (public radio equivalent of RTE 1) and it was plainly stated there - "... new developments in the EU-AZ dispute after the pharma company has failed to meet its contractual obligations... ". As it is. No spin, no Brexiter bollox.

Now, there's some Commission criticism in the German media but from a different flank - they're basically saying "if we went alone we would have had more supplies". That argument doesn't apply to maybe 24 out of EU27 countries. Certainly not to Ireland - if Ireland went alone, and others in the EU too, there'd certainly be fewer vaccines.

Note: although Covid related it all links to Brexit.

CelticRambler

Also somewhat in the "crossover" category: Johnson's supposedly world-class Test and Trace had no impact and was a colossal waste of money. £450m per week not given to the NHS, but handed to a variety of consultants and outsourcing companies, only some of which are tax domiciled in the UK.

This is an example of the disconnect between Johnson's grandiose waffling and the effect on the ground. Farage wittered on and on and on about the waste of money arising from the EU's periodic relocation from Brussels to Strasbourg, but where is his criticism now of Downing Street's profligacy? A regular argument by the Brexiters who passed through this forum back in the day was that the EU's accounts hadn't been fully audited and signed off as true and accurate; where are they now, when Johnson & Co. struggle to explain where the money went? And Grant Schapps is poking the zombie that is the GB-NI tunnel again this morning. :rolleyes:

McGiver

eoinbn wrote:

Send a former member of a communist party and a self proclaimed marxist to talk to the US Congress. That will go well.

He's a Social Democrat. He applied to the Slovak Communist Party only in May 1989, just few months before the Velvet Revolution in November 1989.
Opportunist at best. The imminent collapse of the regime was obvious to everyone back then.

Most of the post-1989 Czech and Slovak politicians were previously members of the Communist Party.
Even the Czech ex-PM and ex-president Klaus, self professed libertarian Conservative, who was instrumental in the transformation of the Czech state command economy to market economy, and who was a fan of Pinochet, Thatcher and Friedman policy and an economist of the Chicago school, was a member. So that itself means nothing.

Funnily enough, Šefčovič although being the EC VP, he'd be fairly eurosceptic both in the Slovak space as well as the European Socialist Party, as he opposes federalism etc. Furthermore, some of his social and fiscal positions would be more inline with the Conservative German CSU himself being a Christian. Christian Conservative Social Democrat Eusosceptic EU commission VP - Square this for me, but you can't really say he's a marxist. He'd have more in common with the US Republicans than with Fine Gael.

yagan

McGiver wrote: »

Funnily enough, Šefčovič although being the EC VP, he'd be fairly eurosceptic both in the Slovak space as well as the European Socialist Party, as he opposes federalism etc.

Not being a fan of federalism isn't Euroscepticism. In fact some of the loudest British self defined Eurosceptics berated the EU for not being federalised.

Then tended of the variety who wanted to rule Europe the same way they once ruled an empire. Their aloofness has only repelled their nearest allies.

An Claidheamh

correct horse battery staple wrote: »

Was just told by someone of Brexiteer leaning from across pond that Ireland turned down vaccines offered so generously by UK

Funny how someone predicted this few pages back on this thread, tabloids just create their own reality over there.

Looks like you smoked out a Daily Express reader

Brits always revert back to default nationalism, throw in some healthy, possibly genuine, ignorance and voila

I can never understand the lengths official Ireland go to in order to try and rationalise with their media, etc

McGiver

yagan wrote: »

Not being a fan of federalism isn't Euroscepticism. In fact some of the loudest British self defined Eurosceptics rebated the EU for not being federalised.

Then tended of the variety who wanted to rule Europe the same way they once ruled an empire. Their aloofness has only repelled their nearest allies.

Yes, but he is indeed a Eusosceptic in the Slovak space. I don't know if it's an opportunist position or not though. Looks Eurosceptic populist to me if you'd ask me - he says what Eurosceptics want to hear - superstate, migration, tax etc.

I've just listened to the interview he gave during the Slovak President run (he ran for president and lost in the second round).

He said that ALDE want to establish "a European superstate" where the Slovak budget would be decided in Brussels, the tax policy would be decided in Brussels etc. He said his red lines are - sovereignty, tax policy, family policy (he's anti LGBT) and migration policy.

This is all cliché Eurosceptic scaremongering stuff - especially the superstate, tax and migration.

Even if the EU was hypothetically federalised tomorrow, all of this is extremely unlikely, with perhaps the exception of the migration, but even that could be tackled.

Swiss cantons, Canadian provinces or even US states, have all their budgets, parliaments, tax policy, regulations. They just have federal budget, federal government and federal laws on top. It's very unlikely that the EU members would agree to anything deeper than the quite lean Swiss-style federation, where member states would keep their laws, traditions, languages, tax policy, state governments and parliaments and could carry on legislating their own laws within the constraints of the federal constitution. The federal government would just be doing monetary policy (common currency), foreign relations, defence and the Single Market. Just like in Switzerland.

Brussels Sprout

CelticRambler wrote: »

Also somewhat in the "crossover" category: Johnson's supposedly world-class Test and Trace had no impact and was a colossal waste of money. £450m per week not given to the NHS, but handed to a variety of consultants and outsourcing companies, only some of which are tax domiciled in the UK.

Those figures are mind-boggling. Given that the government here were absolutely slated (and continue to be so) over the overspending on the Children's Hospital I can only imagine the coverage that story would have gotten here.

The sleight of hand being shown by the majority of the british media at this time is flabbergasting. "Look over here, not over there". They're not even pretending to be objective in their reporting of anything. They're just glorified fanzines for the Tories.

liamog

McGiver wrote: »

Swiss cantons, Canadian provinces or even US states, have all their budgets, parliaments, tax policy, regulations. They just have federal budget, federal government and federal laws on top. It's very unlikely that the EU members would agree to anything deeper than the quite lean Swiss-style federation, where member states would keep their laws, traditions, languages, tax policy, state governments and parliaments and could carry on legislating their own laws within the constraints of the federal constitution. The federal government would just be doing monetary policy (common currency), foreign relations, defence and the Single Market. Just like in Switzerland.

I've heard it said that Switzerland will never join the EU, instead the EU will grow into Switzerland

kub

correct horse battery staple wrote: »

Was just told by someone of Brexiteer leaning from across pond that Ireland turned down vaccines offered so generously by UK

Funny how someone predicted this few pages back on this thread, tabloids just create their own reality over there.

I heard The Taoiseach earlier on the radio, he categorically said he was speaking with BJ and that BJ said he would love to supply some vaccine to us, but currently had none to spare.

McGiver

Brussels Sprout wrote:

Those figures are mind-boggling. Given that the government here were absolutely slated (and continue to be so) over the overspending on the Children's Hospital I can only imagine the coverage that story would have gotten here.

Yet nothing happens in the UK. They literally steal taxpayer's money en masse during the daytime without even trying to hide it and the response from the electorate is that BJ would be reelected with a larger majority today. And more chest thumping from the HMG loudly cheered by the very same electorate whose money is being stolen and the whole economic system rigged for the benefit of dodgy corporations and disbenefit of the citizens.

England is a political write-off. Democracy requires engaged, informed and educated electorate. If it's not there you quickly descend into populism, authoritarianism and fascism. We're in the populist phase now.

Professor Moriarty

McGiver wrote: »

Yet nothing happens in the UK. They literally steal taxpayer's money en masse during the daytime without even trying to hide it and the response from the electorate is that BJ would be reelected with a larger majority today. And more chest thumping from the HMG loudly cheered by the very same electorate whose money is being stolen and the whole economic system rigged for the benefit of dodgy corporations and disbenefit of the citizens.

England is a political write-off. Democracy requires engaged, informed and educated electorate. If it's not there you quickly descend into populism, authoritarianism and fascism. We're in the populist phase now.

Who is the leader of Labour again? Starman or something isn't it? Did he get Covid? Haven't heard a word from him for a long time. Mind you, he had nothing at all to say for himself when he did speak.

Seth Brundle

Professor Moriarty wrote: »

Who is the leader of Labour again? Starman or something isn't it? Did he get Covid? Haven't heard a word from him for a long time. Mind you, he had nothing at all to say for himself when he did speak.

What do you want him to say? It's not as if he can do or say much. If he highlights the vast covid based corruption or the mess that is Brexit, the dominant media outlets won't care: they're fully behind the mess.

Professor Moriarty

Seth Brundle wrote: »

What do you want him to say? It's not as if he can do or say much. If he highlights the vast covid based corruption or the mess that is Brexit, the dominant media outlets won't care: they're fully behind the mess.

He could say it though. He is leader of the opposition. If you ask me what I want him to say, I want him to point out the clusterfcuk that the Tories made of the UK's Covid response and why. Then I want him to point out the clusterfcuk that Brexit is becoming and why. Then I want him to point out every single lie that Johnson says on a daily basis. Then I want him to point out how corrupt the Tory party is and how it places its donors and friends above all else. But no. The best he came up with year this is "Brexit is done, let's move on". He truly is weak and pathetic. No wonder the Tories are flying in the polls.

Hurrache

kub wrote: »

BJ said he would love to supply some vaccine to us, but currently had none to spare.

Johnson would say mass if it made him look good.

McGiver

Seth Brundle wrote:

What do you want him to say? It's not as if he can do or say much. If he highlights the vast covid based corruption or the mess that is Brexit, the dominant media outlets won't care: they're fully behind the mess.

I agree it's a rigged system. But if he just repeated the same stuff about Tories stealing ordinary people's tax money every day, day by day, it would eventually work.
This is all what he needs to say - they're stealing your money.

rock22

Seth Brundle wrote: »

What do you want him to say? It's not as if he can do or say much. If he highlights the vast covid based corruption or the mess that is Brexit, the dominant media outlets won't care: they're fully behind the mess.

At the moment Starmer and Labour, are spending their time fighting with the PM to get the record changed regarding a previous vote.

The row is over pass voting record regarding NHS. Obviously this is more important than Covid , Brexit, or NI to the labour leader. He can find his voice on these matters of records but cannot seem to speak on brexit or Eu or Covid or NI.

BonnieSituation

BonnieSituation wrote: »

[...]

And that neatly leads us to what worries me most about the vaccine "issue"...

---

The IT reporter throwing out nonsense like that is just seeking to start a story. That's not reporting, that's newsmaking, and it's wholly inappropriate.

It will gain traction over the next few days and then MM will be asked about accepting vaccines if they were offered and lo and behold we have a story about MM rejecting/accepting vaccines from the UK and that will inevitably develop into a "'Big Bad EU' wouldn't let plucky Ireland take the Great British offer of vaccines."

You can see it a mile off how this 'story' will be pushed.

As stated above by others re the quality of FF in power, we unfortunately have a Taoiseach who has all the political nous and patience of a toddler with a rattle and he worries me whenever he has to make a statement or pronouncement so anything like this is unwelcome in the extreme.

It's worrisome that he is so easily led as seen during the A16 meltdown. So this will not inspire confidence.

correct horse battery staple wrote: »

Was just told by someone of Brexiteer leaning from across pond that Ireland turned down vaccines offered so generously by UK

Funny how someone predicted this few pages back on this thread, tabloids just create their own reality over there.

Only took the 6 days to seep down.

Good to see the narrative take hold anyway. Tomorrow will be fun.

kub wrote: »

I heard The Taoiseach earlier on the radio, he categorically said he was speaking with BJ and that BJ said he would love to supply some vaccine to us, but currently had none to spare.

He's so bad at responding to these sorts of questions. Exactly how you'd've expected it to go. Awful.

Capt'n Midnight

The UK is a sovereign nation.

The UK has been found guilty by the European Court of Justice of “systematically and persistently” breaching air pollution limits.

Hurrache

Emily Maitlis called Wilson out with a great comment last night on how he found himself where he is. Must be the first time it's been pointed out on television anyway.


https://twitter.com/Zero_4/status/1369786148441239552

Seth Brundle

mod: a post has been removed. Don't just post a post to a blog

CelticRambler

McGiver wrote: »

They literally steal taxpayer's money en masse during the daytime without even trying to hide it and the response from the electorate is that BJ would be reelected with a larger majority today.

On that point of taxpayers' money, a link in the blog from the now-deleted post led me to this bit of news from a the end of February:

One of the UK’s biggest GP practice operators has quietly passed into the hands of the US health insurance group Centene Corporation, prompting calls for an official investigation into what campaigners claim is “privatisation of the NHS by stealth”.

The merger is expected to create the largest private supplier of GP services in the UK, with 58 practices covering half a million patients.

<snip>

The approval was granted by the North Central London clinical commissioning group (NCL CCG), a local NHS body that purchases health services from GPs, hospitals and others using taxpayer funds.

I'm sure the followers of the Big Red Bus will be delighted to know that their Brexit savings of £350m a week will be propping up the share price of an American health insurance company.

Oh, wait. I forgot to highlight the phrase "has quietly passed". We don't draw attention to this kind of sovereignty-hastag-take-back-control, do we? :rolleyes:

Seth Brundle

Following on from the newsnight snippet above, FG TD Neale Richmond does well to explain to Emily Maitis both the DUP's intransigent opposition to any solution and also the Irish position in terms of the UK's unilateral recent actions...

https://twitter.com/BBCNewsnight/status/1369789153790066691

Kermit.de.frog

The only way forward is for the UK to take ownership of the agreement it signed.

Now they act like they didn't know what they were signing.

They have to implement what they signed up to and within that make it work as efficiently as possible.

What the UK is doing is abusing NI and using it as a front for giving the impression it's standing up to the EU.

It shows how much the UK's whole attitude to the island of Ireland has not changed from 100 years a go.

Capt'n Midnight

The UK is continuing to diverge from the EU based citizens rights model.

"Victims who do give blanket consent to these digital interrogations are afforded no protections. All the data taken from their devices, which can even include their social media accounts, can be kept by the police for up to 100 years,"

Here's two job offers that show how much a priority justice is in the UK.

UK Space Agency will pay a new CEO £125,000 to run non-existent space programme


Fancy a £130k director of technology role with the UK's Ministry of Justice? All you need to do is 'fix the basics'

Among other things, the director of technology will be responsible for courtroom Wi-Fi, computing devices for 70,000 staff, overseeing contracts worth tens or even hundreds of millions of pounds, plus heading up a team of 400 staff and directly controlling a budget of £250m. Successful applicants might also need to keep a close eye on the ministry's contractors.

Creaking along in the background is the MoJ's oft-touted £1.2bn digital modernisation programme, which aimed to save money as part of a wider plan to sell off court buildings and digitise whatever was left.