Brexit discussion thread XIV (Please read OP before posting)

Leroy42

And if they want another 6 months, and another and....


The UK wants to be treated as a sovereign state, yet expect everyone to treat them with kid gloves and bend the rules because poor old UK are finding things difficult.

It would make some sense if they had asked for more time (which I think the EU would have accepted) to deal with the issues, but they are showing no signs of dealing with the issues and instead seem to be simply kicking the can down the road.

What solutions have they offered? Have they set out clearly that red tape is here to stay? That NI will face continued border in the Irish Sea?

No, they are still pedalling that everything will be fine, that this is all the EUs fault and Frost is going to sort it all out.

View

ujjjjjjjjj wrote: »

Yup absolutely agree the EU as it stands isn't a federal state - but perceptions of more power moving to the centre and control of areas national governments always had (currency, standards etc etc) can give a perception of creeping federalism and this can be leveraged by nationalist groups etc etc. I don't think anyone will say that there hasn't been a move towards the EU having more power/control/influence (and of course this is by agreement) than it did say 25 years ago - simple examples being the single currency, environmental matters and many standards. So it is federal no but it's easy to portray it as a move towards federalism.

So it's something to be carefully looked at or there is always the risk of rising anti EU sentiment especially in times of economic problems.

The EU isn’t a federal organisation therefore any “perception” of “creeping federalism” is a false perception. You can’t plan or act based on peoples’ false perceptions.

I have seen Brexiters argue that the EU is Marxist and “Lexiters” simultaneously arguing that the EU is Neo-Liberal within the same conversation. Clearly either their perceptions are wrong or, more likely, they don’t give a sh&t and are just united in their hatred of the EU.

Peregrinus

ujjjjjjjjj wrote: »

Slow down a bit.

To try and understand things here it helps to look at it from a British perspective.

The Northern Ireland situation is a total pain in the rear end ? Because where there should be a border there can't be a border...... (the GFA, NI peace etc etc means it can't be there..)

The entire thing is a fudge (an entirely necessary fudge) but it is a fudge and the only fudge that was dreamt up that kinda worked was a border in the Irish Sea for trade.

Gotta point out that the EU (with enthusiastic support of IRL) negotiated and signed a Brexit deal that didn’t involve an NI/RoI border or an NI/GB border. It was the UK that, having negotiated and signed that, refused to ratify it.

So when you say “the only fudge that kinda worked” what you actually mean is “the only fudge that was acceptable to hard Brexiters on the right of the Tory party, including Johnson, B”. This matters because, when we ask ourselves if it’s reasonable to expect the UK to operate the fudge, it’s relevant that they are the reason we have the fudge in the first place; they demanded it; they cooked it up; they refused to accept a Brexit that didn’t include the fudge.

ujjjjjjjjj wrote: »

On Jan 1 the Brits and NI just weren't ready even close to being ready to deal with this and chaos ensued hence the suspension and another fudge. They were never going to have any of it in place preemptively as even in late 2020 no one really knew which way it was going to go.

The NIP was negotiated and signed in 2019 and ratified by the UK in January 2020. They knew about it a year before it took effect.

You could argue that, yeah, they knew what was in the NIP but they didn’t know was to what extent the impact of the NIP might be alleviated by the terms of the TCA, when negotiated and signed. But I’d say that argument is pretty bogus. Early in 2020 the UK tore up the Political Declaration they had signed in lated 2019 and announced that they wanted a “Canada-style” TCA. They knew that they couldn’t have a closer TCA imposed on them; such a thing could only happen if they changed their minds and agreed to a closer TCA. And they knew exactly what a “Canada-style” TCA would and wouldn’t do to alleviate the impact of the NIP. And, of course, they got their Canada-style TCA.

So the NIP is operating pretty much in the way the UK decided, early in 2020, that they wanted it to operate. They’ve had a year to prepare for this.

ujjjjjjjjj wrote: »

Writing it down and talking about it means little in reality. You have to remember Boris got elected effectively by saying he would get a deal and get Brexit done, oven ready etc etc and he won a huge majority. So he is gonna sell it, talk it up even if the reality behind the scenes was that nothing was in place.

But he was lying, and everybody knew he was lying. And it doesn’t matter, because Johnson’s superpower is that people will forgive him for lying.

The fact that he was lying about there being no need for GB:NI border controls need not have prevented him from preparing for the GB:NI border controls that he was, at the very same time, demanding.

ujjjjjjjjj wrote: »

I suspect ( it's not about trust as I could be on here all night telling you why I don't trust the Irish government let alone the British one....) that in six months they will have enough processes in place to fudge this thing through and keep trade moving seamlessly enough between the NI and mainland UK.

They are buying time to get things in place.

They had time to get things in place; they didn’t use it. So why would we expect that, given more time, they would use it to get things in place? What has changed that we should expect different behaviour in the future?

If anything, the UK is furiously signalling that, given more time, it will not put things in place. It is actively seeking confrontation with the EU, e.g. by announcing unilateral and illegal grace period extensions, rather than by invoking the mechanisms they negotiated and signed up to by which grace period extensions could be legally agreed. This seems to be part of a wider campaign of deliberately picking fights with the EU in order to secure domestic political advantage. And it would be entirely consistent with that campaign to be still not ready to implement the NIP even after the more time that the UK has granted itself.

fash

Gerry T wrote: »

What your grasping at is the EU mentioning but not triggering ART16 and within Hrs apologising for the miscommunication, hardly the same thing.

Here is Wikipedia's description - which I think rather helpful:
"British Prime Minister Boris Johnson first threatened to invoke Article 16 of the Protocol in a speech to Parliament on 13 January 2021,[40] and again on 3 February.[41]

The Von der Leyen Commission threatened to advise the European Council to invoke Article 16 of the Northern Ireland Protocol on 30 January 2021 over a dispute with AstraZeneca on the contractual details of COVID-19 vaccine and whether the Anglo-Swedish manufacturer was or was not providing its "best efforts" to supply the EU with its product.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Northern_Ireland_Protocol#Article_16


... Threatened to advise the EU commission that they should consider triggering article 16. Honestly.

McGiver

ujjjjjjjjj wrote:

On Jan 1 the Brits and NI just weren't ready even close to being ready to deal with this and chaos ensued hence the suspension and another fudge. They were never going to have any of it in place preemptively as even in late 2020 no one really knew which way it was going to go.

Writing it down and talking about it means little in reality. You have to remember Boris got elected effectively by saying he would get a deal and get Brexit done, oven ready etc etc and he won a huge majority. So he is gonna sell it, talk it up even if the reality behind the scenes was that nothing was in place.

No. They had 1 whole year to get ready as per the WA signed 1 Dec 2019. There was no unknown unlike you say.

They aren't ready because they made no effort towards being ready. And we suspect that it's intentional. Or total incompetence at best.

You can't sign international treaties and then simply don't implement them. Well, unless you're Libya, Russia or Turkey.

McGiver

View wrote:

The EU isn't a federal organisation therefore any perception of creeping federalism is a false perception. You can't plan or act based on peoples false perceptions.

Federal aspirations are inbuilt to the treaty of Rome, 1957. But the actual implementation of the aspirations is a completely different thing, it is up to the member states via the EU structures to decide how and when they want go about that aspiration if at all.

All member states agreed to all EU treaties so far so there's no creeping element whatsoever. Any other treaty changes will be implemented only with full support of all member states.

So far in 64 years, the EU has progressed the original aspiration only towards a confederation of sovereign states. There is a long way to go to federalism.

View wrote:

I have seen Brexiters argue that the EU is Marxist and Lexiters simultaneously arguing that the EU is Neo-Liberal within the same conversation. Clearly either their perceptions are wrong or, more likely, they don't give a sh&t and are just united in their hatred of the EU.

Yes, the Europhobe's Schroedinger's EU. The universal boogeyman. The EU is multifaceted and heterogenous, hence you can attack it almost from every possible side. Doesn't make the attacks valid, of course.

Another universal boogeyman in Europhobe's mind is Germany. Especially in the UK, but, being of partial albeit not large German descent, I'm really shocked it is used by various Eurosceptics in Ireland as well. Especially since Ireland had historically nothing to do with Germany.

rock22

Peregrinus wrote: »

...



But he was lying, and everybody knew he was lying. And it doesn’t matter, because Johnson’s superpower is that people will forgive him for lying.

...

It really needs to be repeated and repeated.

Akrasia

Seth Brundle wrote: »

Tony Connelly is reporting that the EU will launch their legal action today.
Will things get even more messy now or will the UK begin to sit up straight? (Personally I think the UK want this to help drive their anti-EU nonsense campaign which they think will somehow give them a moral upper hand or something)

https://twitter.com/tconnellyRTE/status/1371366928393109504

https://twitter.com/tconnellyRTE/status/1371366933732462594

The Russian troll farms are already using this as an opportunity to further stoke up public opinion and introduce the concept that there could be an actual war between th EU and UK

2nd comment from that thread

Ha ha ha ha - EU threatening Europe’s only military superpower with a pea shooter -suspect EU trying to hide its vaccine failure -EU need to start behaving, we did not tolerate bad behaviour from EU predecessors, Soviet & NAZI Europe and we won’t tolerate it from the failing EU.

yagan

Akrasia wrote: »

The Russian troll farms are already using this as an opportunity to further stoke up public opinion and introduce the concept that there could be an actual war between th EU and UK

2nd comment from that thread

Doesn't France spend more on defence than Russia?

It sounds more like a Brit bot.

ambro25

yagan wrote: »

Doesn't France spend more on defence than Russia?

I don’t think the armaments spend matters as much, as France’s long-standing and by now deep military enmeshment with Germany on its eastern side and the UK on its western side, both within and outside of NATO frameworks.

I am unaware of Brexit having any particular incidence in that respect, whether good or bad: the matter lies outside the EU’s purview.

So unless there is Putin’s long-term method behind Johnson’s recent military-building madness (assuming those noises have substance instead of being just more jingoistic gaslighting), that “risk” still looks safe to ignore.

PokeHerKing

Two articles i read recently were Johnson's protesting ban law thats going through the commons and that Britain have reversed their decision to decommission a percentage of their nuclear arsenal due to geopolitical risks.

I reckon they're well on their way to fascism and a war with somebody in the next 10/20 years.

Akrasia

HalfAndHalf wrote: »

How exactly does extending transition periods for certain aspects of the NI protocol break the GFA?

Surely if those transitions being extended break the GFA then by their very definition they break it by their existence.

The closest we’ve come to breaking the GFA since Brexit that I’m aware of was the non-event short lived border the EC flirted with with article 16.

Seems to be a lot of one sided/eyed opinions here again.

They will cause a breach the GFA by breaching the agreement with the EU that allows the island of Ireland to operate as a single customs in full alignment with the Single Market, therefore not requiring a hard border between the Ireland and NI

By the UK breaking the NI protocol they are tearing down the border between the UK and the EU that would necessitate the erection of a border in Ireland

Akrasia

PokeHerKing wrote: »

Two articles i read recently were Johnson's protesting ban law thats going through the commons and that Britain have reversed their decision to decommission a percentage of their nuclear arsenal due to geopolitical risks.

I reckon they're well on their way to fascism and a war with somebody in the next 10/20 years.

The protest ban certainly is a hugely worrying step in that direction

If they were in the EU that law would be challenged in the ECHR

ancapailldorcha

PokeHerKing wrote: »

Two articles i read recently were Johnson's protesting ban law thats going through the commons and that Britain have reversed their decision to decommission a percentage of their nuclear arsenal due to geopolitical risks.

I reckon they're well on their way to fascism and a war with somebody in the next 10/20 years.

I don't think it's about gearing up for war, I think it's about trading Britain's previously colossal reserves of influence and soft power for hard power to project what they think is strength. Of course, there'll be no conversation about how we pay for these glorious new weapons while we give nurses a real terms pay cut.

Leonard Hofstadter

murphaph wrote: »

The AfD's losses in the State elections in Germany over the weekend would tend to support this view. Vigilance is still required but right wing populists have been found out in most places they've gained real power.

While it's good news that the AfD didn't do well, I thought the CDU and SDP did particularly badly as well as the public are getting frustrated at the pace of the vaccine roll out?

ujjjjjjjjj

Peregrinus wrote: »

Gotta point out that the EU (with enthusiastic support of IRL) negotiated and signed a Brexit deal that didn’t involve an NI/RoI border or an NI/GB border. It was the UK that, having negotiated and signed that, refused to ratify it.

So when you say “the only fudge that kinda worked” what you actually mean is “the only fudge that was acceptable to hard Brexiters on the right of the Tory party, including Johnson, B”. This matters because, when we ask ourselves if it’s reasonable to expect the UK to operate the fudge, it’s relevant that they are the reason we have the fudge in the first place; they demanded it; they cooked it up; they refused to accept a Brexit that didn’t include the fudge.


The NIP was negotiated and signed in 2019 and ratified by the UK in January 2020. They knew about it a year before it took effect.

You could argue that, yeah, they knew what was in the NIP but they didn’t know was to what extent the impact of the NIP might be alleviated by the terms of the TCA, when negotiated and signed. But I’d say that argument is pretty bogus. Early in 2020 the UK tore up the Political Declaration they had signed in lated 2019 and announced that they wanted a “Canada-style” TCA. They knew that they couldn’t have a closer TCA imposed on them; such a thing could only happen if they changed their minds and agreed to a closer TCA. And they knew exactly what a “Canada-style” TCA would and wouldn’t do to alleviate the impact of the NIP. And, of course, they got their Canada-style TCA.

So the NIP is operating pretty much in the way the UK decided, early in 2020, that they wanted it to operate. They’ve had a year to prepare for this.


But he was lying, and everybody knew he was lying. And it doesn’t matter, because Johnson’s superpower is that people will forgive him for lying.

The fact that he was lying about there being no need for GB:NI border controls need not have prevented him from preparing for the GB:NI border controls that he was, at the very same time, demanding.


They had time to get things in place; they didn’t use it. So why would we expect that, given more time, they would use it to get things in place? What has changed that we should expect different behaviour in the future?

If anything, the UK is furiously signalling that, given more time, it will not put things in place. It is actively seeking confrontation with the EU, e.g. by announcing unilateral and illegal grace period extensions, rather than by invoking the mechanisms they negotiated and signed up to by which grace period extensions could be legally agreed. This seems to be part of a wider campaign of deliberately picking fights with the EU in order to secure domestic political advantage. And it would be entirely consistent with that campaign to be still not ready to implement the NIP even after the more time that the UK has granted itself.

Lots of good stuff in your post but my fundamental belief is that often when we go looking for nefarious or deliberate actions in politics the reality is really just broad governmental incompetence.

We live in a country where incompetence be it building two luas lines that don't meet in the middle, inability to build a children's hospital, inability to staff a health service, voting machines, inadequate financial regulation etc etc etc is just part of the woodwork and we are all totally used to it.

I am not so sure the UK is wildly different, better no doubt in some areas and as bad in others.

Any solution for the North of Ireland with Brexit was always going to have to be a fudge as really when the push comes to the shove the only logical (if totally impossible poiltically) place to put the border is on the border between the UK and Ireland I.e at Newry etc. I.E at the spot where the EU meets this third country.

Yes the Brits had a solution to have a Brexit which keep them effectively as part of the single market but they couldn't sell that internally and needed a fuller Brexit for lack of a better way of describing it.

Am I surprised they didn't have processes in place to smooth trade over the trade border down the Irish Sea, not really as incompetence is often there.

To come from Ireland and act all surprised and shocked that another government might be incompetent is a bit of an odd one.

If you think it's some plot to keep the EU v GB war of words going that is fine, I don't, it is just general incompetence and in time I suspect we will have the Protocol in place with some kind of trade border down the Irish Sea.

I do realise it's more fun to have the nefarious Brexiteers up to more mischief, I get that....just not sure the fun gets us anywhere.....

ujjjjjjjjj

PokeHerKing wrote: »

Two articles i read recently were Johnson's protesting ban law thats going through the commons and that Britain have reversed their decision to decommission a percentage of their nuclear arsenal due to geopolitical risks.

I reckon they're well on their way to fascism and a war with somebody in the next 10/20 years.

Wow !!

Are they going to nuke China ? Invade Poland ? Send the Royal Navy to Russia ?

What's next Boris Johnson sets up camps to re-educate non believers in Brexit ?

ujjjjjjjjj

Leonard Hofstadter wrote: »

While it's good news that the AfD didn't do well, I thought the CDU and SDP did particularly badly as well as the public are getting frustrated at the pace of the vaccine roll out?

Haven't seen the results but if the AFD ain't doing well in this environment it bodes well as you'd expect them to do well with a general displeasure towards mainstream governmental parties with a slow vaccine roleout.

Silent Running

ujjjjjjjjj wrote: »

I suspect we will have the Protocol in place with some kind of trade border down the Irish Sea.

Bearing in mind that this is already agreed to, signed and sealed by the British Government, is it too much to ask that they implement it as agreed such a short time ago?

ujjjjjjjjj

Silent Running wrote: »

Bearing in mind that this is already agreed to, signed and sealed by the British Government, is it too much to ask that they implement it as agreed such a short time ago?

No of course not but I first always look to general incompetence rather than nefarious alterior motives and I'm not often surprised...........

Gerry T

HalfAndHalf wrote: »

I’m not grasping at anything, you can see from my quoted post that I stated non-event and short lived.

The rest of what you’ve said has nothing to do with the question I’m asking and have asked a number of times.

How does it break the GFA. It’s being flung around an awful lot why can’t anyone answer this simple question? Or is it that it doesn’t but it makes for some good cannon fodder and bashing?

The GFA gives the people the right to decide to stay in the UK or a united Ireland (if the ROI agrees). Anyone born in NI has by birth an entitlement to be part of the Irish nation or the UK or BOTH, this is written into UK and Irish law. NI is not like any other part of the UK.
The GFA wasn't specifically written to deal with NI leaving the EU and creating a barrier between the people of NI and ROI, hence the NI Protocol which does deal with it, an international recognised agreement. The UK signed up to this and hence why there's a border in the Irish Sea.

Your creating a strawman, there is no question about the UK breaking the GFA, there is a question of the UK consistently breaking it's agreements.

It's not bashing to point out where the UK is acting dishonourably.

Capt'n Midnight

McGiver wrote: »

No. They had 1 whole year to get ready as per the WA signed 1 Dec 2019. There was no unknown unlike you say.

And they could have asked for extensions.

And they knew they needed an extension because the systems weren't close to being ready.



HMG doesn't do software projects well. There is no evidence to suggest that they can do software on time, on budget. It's the usual companies who consistently fail to deliver on one side and the changes in management and specs on the other.

Look at the history on this one. Delayed UK digital border system was only stable enough to be used by 4% of intended users, MPs say

Leroy42

ujjjjjjjjj wrote: »

Lots of good stuff in your post but my fundamental belief is that often when we go looking for nefarious or deliberate actions in politics the reality is really just broad governmental incompetence.

We live in a country where incompetence be it building two luas lines that don't meet in the middle, inability to build a children's hospital, inability to staff a health service, voting machines, inadequate financial regulation etc etc etc is just part of the woodwork and we are all totally used to it.

I am not so sure the UK is wildly different, better no doubt in some areas and as bad in others.

Any solution for the North of Ireland with Brexit was always going to have to be a fudge as really when the push comes to the shove the only logical (if totally impossible poiltically) place to put the border is on the border between the UK and Ireland I.e at Newry etc. I.E at the spot where the EU meets this third country.

Yes the Brits had a solution to have a Brexit which keep them effectively as part of the single market but they couldn't sell that internally and needed a fuller Brexit for lack of a better way of describing it.

Am I surprised they didn't have processes in place to smooth trade over the trade border down the Irish Sea, not really as incompetence is often there.

To come from Ireland and act all surprised and shocked that another government might be incompetent is a bit of an odd one.

If you think it's some plot to keep the EU v GB war of words going that is fine, I don't, it is just general incompetence and in time I suspect we will have the Protocol in place with some kind of trade border down the Irish Sea.

I do realise it's more fun to have the nefarious Brexiteers up to more mischief, I get that....just not sure the fun gets us anywhere.....

So what are they doing to remedy this? Have they set out the new reality for NI? Have they explained the impact of the trade deal with economic analysis? Have they told the likes of the DUP that the deal is done, no going back and this is the democratically voted deal?

No. They continue to blame the EU. They have been warned of these issues for 5 years, yet continually refuse to accept the reality.
What should the EU do in light of this incompetence as you claim it to be?

Give another 6 months, a year, 2 years?

The UK were super quick to jump on EU incompetence in regards to their handling of AZ vaccine rollout, but seemingly the EU need to simply accept the UK are incompetent and do whatever it takes to save them from themselves.

fly_agaric

ujjjjjjjjj wrote: »

Am I surprised they didn't have processes in place to smooth trade over the trade border down the Irish Sea, not really as incompetence is often there.

To come from Ireland and act all surprised and shocked that another government might be incompetent is a bit of an odd one.

If you think it's some plot to keep the EU v GB war of words going that is fine, I don't, it is just general incompetence and in time I suspect we will have the Protocol in place with some kind of trade border down the Irish Sea.

I do realise it's more fun to have the nefarious Brexiteers up to more mischief, I get that....just not sure the fun gets us anywhere.....

In fairness it is not a conspiracy theory, or trying to see ill intent where there is just incompetence. High level Conservatives have stated the NI protocol should be scrapped, or perhaps never have been signed at all.
The Tory house papers & journals publish articles advising the government to break it. The PM and Gove were breathtakingly quick off the mark looking to gut it completely & demand a mad 2 year extension to these "grace periods" (on top of the 1 year they had already and extra months negotiated at end of last year) the minute the EU Commission slipped up with Article 16. Taking unilateral action (as they've done since of course) is never a sign that people want to work something out amically.

I think there's a belief there that the UK is in the stronger position here. It can very rapidly twist and bend the NI protocol whatever way it wants before the EU can retaliate via slower, legalistic & consensual mechanisms (as is its wont). As I + others have said before fighting with the EU is just what these people in power in the UK do and what they have built their whole political careers on - they won't stop just because UK has finally left now.

Better EU-UK relations and better UK-Ireland relations that you hope for are I think going to have to wait for a completely new broom in the Tories + them letting go of their obsessions with the EU (very unlikely) or change of UK government etc.

...on that sour note Happy St. Patricks Day!

ujjjjjjjjj

Leroy42 wrote: »

So what are they doing to remedy this? Have they set out the new reality for NI? Have they explained the impact of the trade deal with economic analysis? Have they told the likes of the DUP that the deal is done, no going back and this is the democratically voted deal?

No. They continue to blame the EU. They have been warned of these issues for 5 years, yet continually refuse to accept the reality.
What should the EU do in light of this incompetence as you claim it to be?

Give another 6 months, a year, 2 years?

The UK were super quick to jump on EU incompetence in regards to their handling of AZ vaccine rollout, but seemingly the EU need to simply accept the UK are incompetent and do whatever it takes to save them from themselves.

I don't know why don't you ask them !! Look I'm being flippant but seriously try asking the Irish Government how much the childrens hospital is gonna cost and you'll get a load of guff back when we all know it's insanely expensive and in the wrong place. British government doesn't really want the border down the Irish Sea but it also knows there was no way to get any kinda deal across the line with a border at Newry so it's fecking around.....am I surprised not really. So they are muddling along and weren't prepared for it.

RE the DUP - end game will be simple - cash and jobs and a bit of time for it to all heal....Arlene will already be making lists.

EU will take legal action and it time it will settle down, suspect after this extension.

Yes of course they would have a crack at the EU re vaccine roleout as no matter what anyone can say about the UK they have a pretty spectacular job of rolling out the vaccine. Do you seriously expect the British just to ignore it ? In reverse we've been happy to point out the high death toll in the UK etc etc. It's all stupid stuff.

schmoo2k

ujjjjjjjjj wrote: »

No of course not but I first always look to general incompetence rather than nefarious alterior motives and I'm not often surprised...........

I was confused about the Nuclear announcement and came to the conclusion that its more a "how do we decommission the old ones" issue...

IMO all new defence spending should be in cyber and not physical (maybe some crossover for drones etc.)?

ujjjjjjjjj

fly_agaric wrote: »

In fairness it is not a conspiracy theory, or trying to see ill intent where there is just incompetence. High level Conservatives have stated the NI protocol should be scrapped, or perhaps never have been signed at all.
The Tory house papers & journals publish articles advising the government to break it. The PM and Gove were breathtakingly quick off the mark looking to gut it completely & demand a mad 2 year extension to these "grace periods" (on top of the 1 year they had already and extra months negotiated at end of last year) the minute the EU Commission slipped up with Article 16. Taking unilateral action (as they've done since of course) is never a sign that people want to work something out amically.

I think there's a belief there that the UK is in the stronger position here. It can very rapidly twist and bend the NI protocol whatever way it wants before the EU can retaliate via slower, legalistic & consensual mechanisms (as is its wont). As I + others have said before fighting with the EU is just what these people in power in the UK do and what they have built their whole political careers on - they won't stop just because UK has finally left now.

Better EU-UK relations and better UK-Ireland relations that you hope for are I think going to have to wait for a completely new broom in the Tories + them letting go of their obsessions with the EU (very unlikely) or change of UK government etc.

...on that sour note Happy St. Patricks Day!

Happy Paddy's Day too !!

Look at one end of the ERG lot you have the Hard Brexit lot so of course they will rattle on about getting rid of the NI Protocol but it's there now. Is it ideal that the Brits have this extension in place, of course not. Is it a nefarious game, I don't think so. Is it a sign of general incompetence / unpreparedness I think so....and the DUP will be looking for a pound of flesh....

Time will tell.

Suspect it will be sometime before Labour can get their act together in the UK - if I was a betting man I'd say the Tories will get back in again - post vaccine success and some economic lift post Covid but again time will tell.

Entire Brexit thing has been a unpleasant period and here's hoping to things improving in Anglo-Irish relations.

Leroy42

ujjjjjjjjj wrote: »

I don't know why don't you ask them !! Look I'm being flippant but seriously try asking the Irish Government how much the childrens hospital is gonna cost and you'll get a load of guff back when we all know it's insanely expensive and in the wrong place. British government doesn't really want the border down the Irish Sea but it also knows there was no way to get any kinda deal across the line with a border at Newry so it's fecking around.....am I surprised not really. So they are muddling along and weren't prepared for it.

RE the DUP - end game will be simple - cash and jobs and a bit of time for it to all heal....Arlene will already be making lists.

EU will take legal action and it time it will settle down, suspect after this extension.

Yes of course they would have a crack at the EU re vaccine roleout as no matter what anyone can say about the UK they have a pretty spectacular job of rolling out the vaccine. Do you seriously expect the British just to ignore it ? In reverse we've been happy to point out the high death toll in the UK etc etc. It's all stupid stuff.

You are the one claiming it is all just a bit of incompetence and will eventually be sorted. Yet there is no evidence to backup that theory.

As for the UK crowing about vaccine, the point was that you were claiming incompetence by UK over NIP should be accepted and helped with yet the UK itself is not showing the same values.

As throughout this whole debacle, UK want to be treated as an exception, uniquely different and everyone should bend to their requirements.

ujjjjjjjjj

Leroy42 wrote: »

You are the one claiming it is all just a bit of incompetence and will eventually be sorted. Yet there is no evidence to backup that theory.

As for the UK crowing about vaccine, the point was that you were claiming incompetence by UK over NIP should be accepted and helped with yet the UK itself is not showing the same values.

As throughout this whole debacle, UK want to be treated as an exception, uniquely different and everyone should bend to their requirements.

What evidence is there to suggest anything else is going on ? Really do any of us know what is going on ?

What about our crowing over the UK making a horlicks out of Covid and laughing at Boris re herd immunity etc etc. Nice values there too.

None of it is particularly edifying.

Capt'n Midnight

PokeHerKing wrote: »

Two articles i read recently were Johnson's protesting ban law thats going through the commons and that Britain have reversed their decision to decommission a percentage of their nuclear arsenal due to geopolitical risks.

I reckon they're well on their way to fascism and a war with somebody in the next 10/20 years.

Fighting a war would be difficult . The army is being reduced to 70,000. They needed 27,000 troops in NI. And smuggling was rife.

Then again they gave the contract to recruit to Capita so they'll likely get to that figure through incompetence in hiring, unless the economy tanks.