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Brexit discussion thread XIV (Please read OP before posting)
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ujjjjjjjjj wrote: »What evidence is there to suggest anything else is going on ? Really do any of us know what is going on ?
What about our crowing over the UK making a horlicks out of Covid and laughing at Boris re herd immunity etc etc. Nice values there too.
None of it is particularly edifying.
Who was crowing? There's a bit of misconception on this thread. Saying somebody is making an arse of something is not crowing. You look at other countries and either emulate them or learn from their mistakes.
Saying Brexit is a disaster is not crowing either. There have been multiple examples given of why Brexit is crap. The counter argument seems to be itll be good in the future so just wait (months, years, its a date that seems to keep moving further into the future).
Maybe I'm wrong, could you give an example of anybody crowing over how the UK handled the pandemic.0 -
ujjjjjjjjj wrote: »What evidence is there to suggest anything else is going on ? Really do any of us know what is going on ?
What about our crowing over the UK making a horlicks out of Covid and laughing at Boris re herd immunity etc etc. Nice values there too.
None of it is particularly edifying.
The evidence is everywhere. They refused to extend transition, they threatened no deal and pushed the deal to the last minute to gain advantage, they claimed EU needs them more.
This has played out almost exactly as they planned, well in as much as they chose the options available to them.
They have been repeatedly warned, hell even their own reports (Yellowhammer) pointed to the risks.
Sure, it could all be complete incompetence, but they why are they putting Frost in charge of future relationship?
But let's just go with the incompetence angle. So what? What should the EU do with a sovereign nation that is incompetent? Should the EU suffer to save the UK from itself?0 -
Handily, that evidence is getting chronicled in near-enough real-time by the Digby Jones index.The evidence is everywhere.
(...)
But let's just go with the incompetence angle. So what? What should the EU do with a sovereign nation that is incompetent? Should the EU suffer to save the UK from itself?
Looking at it, I cannot buy into this “incompetence” line of argument, which I find reductive in the sense of waving the consequences away.
It is, for a first world economy following a self-selected course of action outside the context of a war or economic crisis, economic vandalism on an unprecedented scale.0 -
Who was crowing? There's a bit of misconception on this thread. Saying somebody is making an arse of something is not crowing. You look at other countries and either emulate them or learn from their mistakes.
Saying Brexit is a disaster is not crowing either. There have been multiple examples given of why Brexit is crap. The counter argument seems to be itll be good in the future so just wait (months, years, its a date that seems to keep moving further into the future).
Maybe I'm wrong, could you give an example of anybody crowing over how the UK handled the pandemic.
Grand then the UK isn't crowing about their vaccine roleout either.......you can't have it both ways.
Brexit has been a negative for Ireland as it reduces our ability to trade easily with the UK and causes obvious issues with the North.
Brexit for the UK is a negative for the UK as it creates barriers to trade with the EU but may allow them to trade more freely with other parts of the world.
Genuinely I don't know will Brexit be a good or bad thing for the UK in the next 10-20 years or longer. Will it cause issues now yes sure it will but sometimes you take short term pain for long-term gain.
I'm open to waiting and seeing. Do I like it for Ireland - no it's a pain especially with the North but that is an Irish perspective. Britain voted for Brexit so I respect that decision whether we or I or anyone likes it and my view is we have to make the best of it. It's done now.0 -
ujjjjjjjjj wrote: »It's done now.
But that is the problem. For the UK it is certainly not done. Everyone on here has accepted it, the EU accepted it. A deal was done, signed but now the UK want to go back on that deal.
We all thought Brexit, or at least the negotiation phase of it, was done but alas as the UK has been unable to face the reality of where it has found itself we are almost (not quite) back to square one.
They are back talking about fishing, and the NI border, anbd standards. All of this has been agreed.
The UK need to man up and face up to reality and deal with it. Stop wasting everyone's time and whinging that things are difficult. They want everyone else to solve their problems for them.
It is not for the EU to explain to NI how the border will work, how they will deal with food shortages etc. This is the UK government decision and it is on them to deal with it.0 -
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But that is the problem. For the UK it is certainly not done. Everyone on here has accepted it, the EU accepted it. A deal was done, signed but now the UK want to go back on that deal.
We all thought Brexit, or at least the negotiation phase of it, was done but alas as the UK has been unable to face the reality of where it has found itself we are almost (not quite) back to square one.
They are back talking about fishing, and the NI border, anbd standards. All of this has been agreed.
The UK need to man up and face up to reality and deal with it. Stop wasting everyone's time and whinging that things are difficult. They want everyone else to solve their problems for them.
It is not for the EU to explain to NI how the border will work, how they will deal with food shortages etc. This is the UK government decision and it is on them to deal with it.
Or they made an arse of it and the extension is buying sometime to sort it out.
What I can tell you is both sides need to start moving on in their relations. It's easy to find fault in the British end of things and yes I'd love it all to be plain sailing at the British end but the EU also needs to move on. This evening we have Ursula going on about restricting vaccine shipments to 'countries with a higher level of vaccination' - in short the UK.....this just adds fuel to the fire and no doubt flip over to the British media and they will be screaming about this. Hardly sensible or clever politics from the EU just like the recent brain fart from the EU re invoking article 16. Yes they u-turned quickly but it was a brain fart.
In short it takes two to tango and always has. I know because of our Irish perspective and history it is exceptionally easy to see everything in one direction. I just don't think things are always that simple.0 -
Leaving all that aside in favour of an entirely different tangent, this idea of Britain steaming off into the Indo-Pacific region in search of unicorns and boundless treasure might be more of an outside-chance gamble than even we sceptics were inclined to believe. For reasons entirely unrelated to Brexit, I was reading/watching a variety of articles and analyses of China's economy and future potential. If even half of what I read is reliable, all is not well with the Yellow Giant, and what we're seeing now is quite likely to be peak China.
Between the one-child policy creating a serious demographic imbalance (a huge number of currently productive workers heading rapidly towards unproductive retirement, with precious few children graduating into the workplace) and a domestic economy built on magic-money real-estate deals, the growth that we've seen in the last couple of decades is predicted to top out fairly soon, leaving China with exactly the same kind of stagnant economy as their Japanese neighbours.
Now some would argue that it doesn't matter, because the absolute numbers will make it more than worthwhile to go gallivanting off in search of great trade deals ... but the numbers aren't that great: the population of China is just less than twice that of Europe (as a whole) and falling, while Europe's population is rising; but more significantly, even the poorest regions of the EU and potential future members have GDP per capita higher than China.
Whatever growth there is in "emerging markets" is more likely to be in Africa rather than Asia - probably why the Chinese are already buying the continent for themselves - and the Brexit British will face a lot more competition from EU member states there than they will in the Far East. Chasing TPP membership could well be another expensive, ultimately futile, Johnsonian vanity project.0 -
Several of the UK cabinet have made a point in interviews of saying the percentage of UK vaccinations compared to EU vaccinations.ujjjjjjjjj wrote: »Grand then the UK isn't crowing about their vaccine roleout either.......you can't have it both ways.
But trading with the other side of the world will never be as successful as trading with your immediate neighbours.ujjjjjjjjj wrote: »Brexit for the UK is a negative for the UK as it creates barriers to trade with the EU but may allow them to trade more freely with other parts of the world.
Furthermore as a solo entity, they will never have as strong a hand in negotiations compared to a union of 500 million people.
Also, the idea that the UK have made a complete mess of the Brexit negotiations to date will make other countries wary of them.in any potential trade negotiations.
Short term pain? Roughly when do you think short term pain will end?ujjjjjjjjj wrote: »Genuinely I don't know will Brexit be a good or bad thing for the UK in the next 10-20 years or longer. Will it cause issues now yes sure it will but sometimes you take short term pain for long-term gain.
Half of the UK electorate voted for brexit. Of this, two countries voted against it. There is a strong likleihood that these two will look to leave the union in the next decade.ujjjjjjjjj wrote: »I'm open to waiting and seeing. Do I like it for Ireland - no it's a pain especially with the North but that is an Irish perspective. Britain voted for Brexit so I respect that decision whether we or I or anyone likes it and my view is we have to make the best of it. It's done now.
A proportion of those who voted to leave are now dead and the voting numbers replaced with young people whose future has been made more challenging by their government.
As for the vote itself, people voted for something that was never quantified. They were told things by their politicians which were either outright lies or they were promised things which were never delivered.
NI people are being abused by the actions of both Westminster and the DUP.
UK relations with Ireland have reached a low not seen in a long time.
British people are being screwed over by the Tories in so many ways.
How do you envisage us all making the best of it?0 -
ujjjjjjjjj wrote: »Or they made an arse of it and the extension is buying sometime to sort it out.
What I can tell you is both sides need to start moving on in their relations. It's easy to find fault in the British end of things and yes I'd love it all to be plain sailing at the British end but the EU also needs to move on. This evening we have Ursula going on about restricting vaccine shipments to 'countries with a higher level of vaccination' - in short the UK.....this just adds fuel to the fire and no doubt flip over to the British media and they will be screaming about this. Hardly sensible or clever politics from the EU just like the recent brain fart from the EU re invoking article 16. Yes they u-turned quickly but it was a brain fart.
In short it takes two to tango and always has. I know because of our Irish perspective and history it is exceptionally easy to see everything in one direction. I just don't think things are always that simple.
VdL is talking to her domestic audience. Why is it that the UK are allowed to say whatever they want and the EU is expected to simply accept it but VdL is held to a different standard?
I get what your saying, that long term all this needs to be sorted, but how much room to you give the UK and they keep pushing it?
The fact they have put Frost in charge of the relationship shows that they are more than happy with the way things are going. So why are you expecting anything different? Hope, it seems, is all you are basing it on.
But what if the UK unilaterally demand a further 6 months? Or drop food standards, or labour laws? Or GDPR rules? It there any point that you will look for them to stand up to their obligations?
The UK are clearly going on the salami principle (Yes Minister). Keep taking little slices, each of which are so small as to not warrant serious pushback.
What will your reaction be when Irish Exports to Europe are negatively impacted as the French etc look for custom declarations and testing due to the potential issues from NI?
It will take years to sort out, who is going to pay for that,and what about the potential loss of markets?
The EU have given them plenty of additional time. Originally they had the 2 years leaving period, then the extension period, then the implementation period and now the illegal period they just took for themselves.
Hope is all well and good, but the UK are showing no signs of wanting to change.0 -
If you were to ignore everything the UK says and concentrate just on their actions then in many respects they're failing at Brexit, even though the EU started treating the UK as a third party from 11pm on the last night of 2020.
The electorate gave them a very simple mandate, get Brexit done and generally continue making Britain great again.0 -
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Two significant developments today:
1. EU looking at blocking exports of the AZ vaccine to the UK as the UK is not exporting any of theirs to the EU
https://www.rte.ie/news/coronavirus/2021/0317/1204536-eu-vaccine/
2. UK deliveries for next month going to be massively down
https://www.itv.com/news/2021-03-17/covid-matt-hancock-coronavirus-press-conference-vaccines
In relation to 1, I can't understand what the hell the EU are waiting for (so long as it doesn't threaten the GFA or result in an Article 16 fiasco once again naturally), since AZ is miraculously able to deliver to the UK and US on target (despite the fact their vaccine still has not been approved by the FDA) but somehow unable or incapable of delivering to the EU. The UK is getting their vaccine from two UK plants and two EU plants but the EU is only getting the vaccine from the EU plants. The EU has already blocked the export of the vaccine to Australia after all.
In relation to 2, well that coupled with the fact that the EMA has already said the AZ vaccine is safe means we'll have well caught up on our vaccination programme by the end of April, we're getting massive deliveries at the end of the month and the single dose J&J vaccine (which hasn't been approved by the MRHA yet) is coming on stream next month as well.0 -
ujjjjjjjjj wrote: »Look at one end of the ERG lot you have the Hard Brexit lot so of course they will rattle on about getting rid of the NI Protocol but it's there now. Is it ideal that the Brits have this extension in place, of course not. Is it a nefarious game, I don't think so. Is it a sign of general incompetence / unpreparedness I think so....and the DUP will be looking for a pound of flesh....
Time will tell.
Suspect it will be sometime before Labour can get their act together in the UK - if I was a betting man I'd say the Tories will get back in again - post vaccine success and some economic lift post Covid but again time will tell.
Entire Brexit thing has been a unpleasant period and here's hoping to things improving in Anglo-Irish relations.
On the Tories, seems to me (as an Irish person relying on the UK media) for a long time now the members & voters have disliked the EU and would have preferred the UK left it.
They used in the past to have some prominent pro EU politicians of course and a lot of disagreement the about the UKs place in the EU project. They were first pushed to the fringe, and the people running the party became Eurosceptics (like Cameron himself), and as the "Brexiting" process has gone on and chewed up first him and then Theresa May, these in turn have been pushed to the margin and the harder types (when it comes to their views of the EU and UK policy towards it) make up the cabinet (headed up by the man who helped drive the "Leave" vote over the line).
There will be no improvement in relations between the UK and EU while that is the case and that is of course a massive problem for Ireland.
I'd agree it seems unlikely Labour can win the next election in the UK but who knows at this stage as the world is full of surprises.
As you say, time will tell.
I still cannot agree with you about this all being incompetence, there is a strategy in there and implications of that are not pleasant.
NI/Ireland and the border is very much a pressure point that I think the UK never fully exploited in the way it could have during negotiations to harm the EU. Probably because there's a big risk there of causing chaos in NI itself, which after all they have to govern, and it will also completely torpedo their relations with this country (as well as the rest of the EU) for the forseeable.
It may well be that UK will reverse gear and start attempting to do what it agreed again just at the point some sort of retaliation from the EU is (finally) about to hit them, or it may be that the UK govt. really mean what they say this time and we're headed for serious trouble (no pun intended!) for Ireland and NI.0 -
VdL is talking to her domestic audience. Why is it that the UK are allowed to say whatever they want and the EU is expected to simply accept it but VdL is held to a different standard?
I get what your saying, that long term all this needs to be sorted, but how much room to you give the UK and they keep pushing it?
The fact they have put Frost in charge of the relationship shows that they are more than happy with the way things are going. So why are you expecting anything different? Hope, it seems, is all you are basing it on.
But what if the UK unilaterally demand a further 6 months? Or drop food standards, or labour laws? Or GDPR rules? It there any point that you will look for them to stand up to their obligations?
The UK are clearly going on the salami principle (Yes Minister). Keep taking little slices, each of which are so small as to not warrant serious pushback.
What will your reaction be when Irish Exports to Europe are negatively impacted as the French etc look for custom declarations and testing due to the potential issues from NI?
It will take years to sort out, who is going to pay for that,and what about the potential loss of markets?
The EU have given them plenty of additional time. Originally they had the 2 years leaving period, then the extension period, then the implementation period and now the illegal period they just took for themselves.
Hope is all well and good, but the UK are showing no signs of wanting to change.
Suppose ultimately it's about always doing what is best for Ireland and if things deteriorate with the UK and something like your French example above happens there is only country that suffers and it's Ireland.
Ireland for me is a uniquely exposed position - if relations between the UK and the EU go absolutely pear shaped we will get caught in the crossfire.
I absolutely get and understand the annoyance about Brexit in Ireland but Brexit (regardless of the close vote, Scotland voting against it, The big bad Tory party, Boris or anything you can talk about) is done - it's history now and they have left the EU.
We continue to have escalating problems and agreements fall apart consequences for Ireland are serious.
That's really all I'm saying - it's great fun to keep heaping it onto the Brits and going nuts over the problems but do I believe with some accommodating diplomacy from both sides can we move on - yes !! I think we can. Can Ireland play an entirely selfish but significant peace broker role here - yes I think we can and to be honest if we can get people to stop shooting each other in the most bitter and protracted civil war in history up North we have skills and attributes that can help here.
If people want to take the 'we are all the EU and the Brits can go and sink' that is your choice and that's fine - I really genuinely don't think that can in anyway though be a positive for Ireland. That's really all I'm saying.
Would I like to see us move into the middle of this and effectively become a peace broker - yes I think it would be a good thing.
Feel free to disagree and I respect that but that is my view on it.0 -
fly_agaric wrote: »On the Tories, seems to me (as an Irish person relying on the UK media) for a long time now the members & voters have disliked the EU and would have preferred the UK left it.
They used in the past to have some prominent pro EU politicians of course and a lot of disagreement the about the UKs place in the EU project. They were first pushed to the fringe, and the people running the party became Eurosceptics (like Cameron himself), and as the "Brexiting" process has gone on and chewed up first him and then Theresa May, these in turn have been pushed to the margin and the harder types (when it comes to their views of the EU and UK policy towards it) make up the cabinet (headed up by the man who helped drive the "Leave" vote over the line).
There will be no improvement in relations between the UK and EU while that is the case and that is of course a massive problem for Ireland.
I'd agree it seems unlikely Labour can win the next election in the UK but who knows at this stage as the world is full of surprises.
As you say, time will tell.
I still cannot agree with you about this all being incompetence, there is a strategy in there and implications of that are not pleasant.
NI/Ireland and the border is very much a pressure point that I think the UK never fully exploited in the way it could have during negotiations to harm the EU. Probably because there's a big risk there of causing chaos in NI itself, which after all they have to govern, and it will also completely torpedo their relations with this country (as well as the rest of the EU) for the forseeable.
It may well be that UK will reverse gear and start attempting to do what it agreed again just at the point some sort of retaliation from the EU is (finally) about to hit them, or it may be that the UK govt. really mean what they say this time and we're headed for serious trouble (no pun intended!) for Ireland and NI.
Good post and I think if I had to have a bet that the agreement will eventually be honoured and much of what is going on is buying time to sort things out and yes of course some points scoring and manipulation. I hope it is as it's a major issue if it all goes south - and I mean a major issue for Ireland as we are uniquely exposed here.0 -
ujjjjjjjjj wrote:This evening we have Ursula going on about restricting vaccine shipments to 'countries with a higher level of vaccination' - in short the UK.....this just adds fuel to the fire and no doubt flip over to the British media and they will be screaming about this.
Was disturbed to read that. (Don't know full details...) but I don't think the EU should use such extreme measures on companies that are generally delivering on what they said they would, and not "shorting" the EU order while filling export orders in full when they run into production problems.
If they just use it on AZ if it tries to export large amounts produced in the EU (e.g. as when they tried to export vaccine from the EU to Australia), I have no problem with that really.
Yes its painful to see a lot of vaccine exported from the EU right now while there are shortages, but the EU/member states made their choice last year not to try and get a "deadlock" on production and reversing that now after being stung badly by AZs failure to deliver is not right IMO.
Anyway, it is all probably very bad news for future EU-UK relations after this is over. Everything is on a downward spiral.ujjjjjjjjj wrote: »Good post and I think if I had to have a bet that the agreement will eventually be honoured and much of what is going on is buying time to sort things out and yes of course some points scoring and manipulation. I hope it is as it's a major issue if it all goes south - and I mean a major issue for Ireland as we are uniquely exposed here.
I hope so. If not it will be a major issue alright + I hope the leadership/politicians here are up to the task and make the correct decisions.0 -
AstraZenaca shafted us with exporting vaccines that were meant for the EU, and then messing up vaccine rollouts with their constantly failing delivery schedule.fly_agaric wrote: »Was disturbed to read that. (Don't know full details...) but I don't think the EU should use such extreme measures on companies that are generally delivering on what they said they would, and not "shorting" the EU order while filling export orders in full when they run into production problems.
The UK didn't help, but they don't respect us.0 -
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They are blocking countries that refuse to export vaccines to the EU; that would be UK, USA & India as a side note that all have AZ sites and refuse to export it. EU has allowed 174 exports from when the ban was implemented and the ban does not cover the 94 poorest countries (they never needed an approval for export) and has exported over 34 million doses. Who did those doses go to?fly_agaric wrote: »Was disturbed to read that. (Don't know full details...) but I don't think the EU should use such extreme measures on companies that are generally delivering on what they said they would, and not "shorting" the EU order while filling export orders in full when they run into production problems.
So yea, let's be real here for a moment instead of bitching about EU blocking some exports. UK refuses to ship doses back to EU (or anywhere else) but EU has already sent them 9 million doses and they gloat about how good their vaccination run is going due to Brexit. If other countries that produce vaccine refuse to ship to EU but are happy to import them? F-k them. Oh and before someone comes up with some other cute "oh but that's unfair"; the vaccination ban has been invoked ONCE so far, that was Italy and the 250k doses to Australia, but EU bad for having the possibility to stop vaccine exports, UK good for not exporting any vaccines at all.Of the 34 million vaccine doses made in E.U.-based facilities that were exported between Feb. 1 and March 9, more than nine million doses went to Britain, according to the internal documents.
The second-largest recipient of E.U.-made vaccines was Canada, which received nearly four million doses last month, while the third-largest was Mexico, receiving 3.1 million vaccine doses.
The E.U. also shipped 954,000 vaccines to the United States since the start of February.0 -
So much for the "Special Relationship".
https://twitter.com/faisalislam/status/1372316282440327172
This turning quite grim from a reputational stand point for the British govt.0 -
ujjjjjjjjj wrote: »What evidence is there to suggest anything else is going on ? Really do any of us know what is going on ?
What about our crowing over the UK making a horlicks out of Covid and laughing at Boris re herd immunity etc etc. Nice values there too.
None of it is particularly edifying.
None of what is edifying?0 -
They are blocking countries that refuse to export vaccines to the EU; that would be UK, USA & India as a side note that all have AZ sites and refuse to export it. EU has allowed 174 exports from when the ban was implemented and the ban does not cover the 94 poorest countries (they never needed an approval for export) and has exported over 34 million doses. Who did those doses go to?
So yea, let's be real here for a moment instead of bitching about EU blocking some exports. UK refuses to ship doses back to EU (or anywhere else) but EU has already sent them 9 million doses and they gloat about how good their vaccination run is going due to Brexit. If other countries that produce vaccine refuse to ship to EU but are happy to import them? F-k them. Oh and before someone comes up with some other cute "oh but that's unfair"; the vaccination ban has been invoked ONCE so far, that was Italy and the 250k doses to Australia, but EU bad for having the possibility to stop vaccine exports, UK good for not exporting any vaccines at all.
Thanks for the clarification (on targetting countries that produce vaccine + do not export themselves). Don't think I was "bitching" about the EU there, but probably should not post without knowing full details.
I agree the whole UK media narrative of the nasty EU "vaccine nationalists" (around the export controls/Italy stopping AZ shipping vaccines to Australia) has been absurd given the reality of matters. The Pharma MNCs produce vaccine in the EU and export alot of it to others, they produce vaccine in the US/UK, and all of that goes into the local vaccination programmes until they are completed.
I suppose my initial thoughts on hearing about it were,- Would be disappointed to see the EU/member states have to backtrack and go down this more selfish route after it looks like they tried not to, and
- Other companies (i.e. not AstraZeneca) that had delivered on their commitments and worked better with the EU may now get caught in somewhat of a cross fire if the orders they have from other countries are disrupted by EU actions to prevent them exporting. There are many countries I think relying on these exports at the moment given that US production is locked off. In effect they would get collectively punished for AZs failure to deliver targets.
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ujjjjjjjjj wrote: »Genuinely I don't know will Brexit be a good or bad thing for the UK in the next 10-20 years or longer. Will it cause issues now yes sure it will but sometimes you take short term pain for long-term gain.
Would you mind explaining how it might benefit the UK long term?
The only benefit I have heard of is that people in the UK might feel they have more sovereignty somehow.0 -
Arlene Foster comes away from a meeting with the VP expressing full support for the protocol. You couldn't make it up.
https://twitter.com/DarranMarshall/status/1372320149877968896
Hard to know if it's a tragedy or a comedy at this stage.
DUP helped dig this grave.0 -
It’s Kafkaesque in its level of absurdity now, and even more so when Foster inevitably gives an interview pretending she opposes the NIP and always has0
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Seth Brundle wrote: »Several of the UK cabinet have made a point in interviews of saying the percentage of UK vaccinations compared to EU vaccinations.
But trading with the other side of the world will never be as successful as trading with your immediate neighbours.
Furthermore as a solo entity, they will never have as strong a hand in negotiations compared to a union of 500 million people.
Also, the idea that the UK have made a complete mess of the Brexit negotiations to date will make other countries wary of them.in any potential trade negotiations.
Short term pain? Roughly when do you think short term pain will end?
Half of the UK electorate voted for brexit. Of this, two countries voted against it. There is a strong likleihood that these two will look to leave the union in the next decade.
A proportion of those who voted to leave are now dead and the voting numbers replaced with young people whose future has been made more challenging by their government.
As for the vote itself, people voted for something that was never quantified. They were told things by their politicians which were either outright lies or they were promised things which were never delivered.
NI people are being abused by the actions of both Westminster and the DUP.
UK relations with Ireland have reached a low not seen in a long time.
British people are being screwed over by the Tories in so many ways.
How do you envisage us all making the best of it?
I found it quite telling the in the decade since we had Elizabeth Windsor in Dublin Castle uttering the words:
...I found it telling that for some reason a weird underbelly of pro-UK/anti-EU right wing nonsense has developed.QEII wrote:A Úachtaráin agus a chairde:Prince Philip and I are delighted to be here, and to experience at first hand Ireland’s world-famous hospitality.
Together we have much to celebrate: the ties between our people, the shared values, and the economic, business and cultural links that make us so much more than just neighbours, that make us firm friends and equal partners.
Madam President, speaking here in Dublin Castle it is impossible to ignore the weight of history, as it was yesterday when you and I laid wreaths at the Garden of Remembrance.
Indeed, so much of this visit reminds us of the complexity of our history, its many layers and traditions, but also the importance of forbearance and conciliation. Of being able to bow to the past, but not be bound by it....
Her visit was the peak of our relationship with Britain since our part of the country left the UK, we were told repeatedly that republicanism couldn't be trusted or that we should listen to unionist concerns and then her visit happen, and in the decade since, we're still listening to unionist concerns.
We got to December 2017 and thought we had a deal and the Westminster DUP scuppered it. And since then we have been trying to appease belligerent Unionism.
And because of this we've gotten to the point where the British government think that that appeasement is something they want to get in on at every 'roadblock'.
At a certain point you have to just give up.
And it's not a case of abandoning our citizens, but we're at the point where we just have to say no to Unionism and the British state. They'll never be happy. So stop the appeasement.0 -
But that’s the thing. I entirely agree that what’s needed is “some accommodating diplomacy from both sides”.ujjjjjjjjj wrote: »Suppose ultimately it's about always doing what is best for Ireland and if things deteriorate with the UK and something like your French example above happens there is only country that suffers and it's Ireland.
Ireland for me is a uniquely exposed position - if relations between the UK and the EU go absolutely pear shaped we will get caught in the crossfire.
I absolutely get and understand the annoyance about Brexit in Ireland but Brexit (regardless of the close vote, Scotland voting against it, The big bad Tory party, Boris or anything you can talk about) is done - it's history now and they have left the EU.
We continue to have escalating problems and agreements fall apart consequences for Ireland are serious.
That's really all I'm saying - it's great fun to keep heaping it onto the Brits and going nuts over the problems but do I believe with some accommodating diplomacy from both sides can we move on - yes !! I think we can. Can Ireland play an entirely selfish but significant peace broker role here - yes I think we can and to be honest if we can get people to stop shooting each other in the most bitter and protracted civil war in history up North we have skills and attributes that can help here.
If people want to take the 'we are all the EU and the Brits can go and sink' that is your choice and that's fine - I really genuinely don't think that can in anyway though be a positive for Ireland. That's really all I'm saying.
Would I like to see us move into the middle of this and effectively become a peace broker - yes I think it would be a good thing.
Feel free to disagree and I respect that but that is my view on it.
But what you’re overlooking is that the EU has consistently offered accommodating diplomacy - accepting the UK’s red lines and trying to craft a Brexit deal that accommodates them, seeking to reach a Brexit deal and granting the UK all the extensions it asked for that that purpose, sticking by the deals it makes, etc. Whereas the UK has consistently been rigid, inflexible, negative - honking about all the things it doesn’t want and refusing to say what it does; trousering all the concessions the EU makes and then treating that as a new baseline and complaining that the EU won’t make any concessions; agreeing terms and then declaring that they won’t be binding; agreeing declarations in December and repudiating them in January; reaching agreed resolutions of points in dispute and then repudiating the agreement; entering into treaties and then announcing that it will violate them.
We’re at the point now where there’s an agreed process, to which the UK is committed, for discussing and agreeing precisely the grace period extensions that the UK needs and wants. But the UK refuses to operate that process; they just unilaterally - and illegally - announce that they are granting themselves the extensions they want. How is the EU supposed to engage in accommodating diplomacy when the UK won’t engage in diplomacy at all?
In these circumstances, criticising the EU for not granting grace period extensions is like criticising a shopkeeper for not offering price discounts in relation to good that are being shoplifted.
I agree that we need accommodating diplomacy on both sides. But we already have it on one side. What needs to change, if we are to reach the happy ideal, is the behaviour of the other side.
And I agree that it’s very much in Ireland’s interest to be friends with the UK. Had the UK sought grace period extensions through the process they committed to, we would certainly have backed that request. As it is, we didn’t have the chance. And now, I think, though we are a friend to the UK, we’re in one of those awkward moments where the duty of a really good friend is to point out to you that you’re being a gobshîte.0 -
They are blocking countries that refuse to export vaccines to the EU; that would be UK, USA & India as a side note that all have AZ sites and refuse to export it. EU has allowed 174 exports from when the ban was implemented and the ban does not cover the 94 poorest countries (they never needed an approval for export) and has exported over 34 million doses. Who did those doses go to?
So yea, let's be real here for a moment instead of bitching about EU blocking some exports. UK refuses to ship doses back to EU (or anywhere else) but EU has already sent them 9 million doses and they gloat about how good their vaccination run is going due to Brexit. If other countries that produce vaccine refuse to ship to EU but are happy to import them? F-k them. Oh and before someone comes up with some other cute "oh but that's unfair"; the vaccination ban has been invoked ONCE so far, that was Italy and the 250k doses to Australia, but EU bad for having the possibility to stop vaccine exports, UK good for not exporting any vaccines at all.
Is it the UK blocking exports or is it AZ deciding who to prioritize?0 -
The UK are about to have the same issues with Astra Zeneca
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-9373987/UK-vaccine-rollout-hit-need-retest-batches.html
UK: We will have to pause the roll out to under 50's to use what we have to on the most vunerable who have not received the vaccine as there are production issues with AZ and supplying
AZ: No production issues here!
So just like the EU problem, which is it?0 -
1. UK law does allow the UK government to ban vaccine exports. But . . .Is it the UK blocking exports or is it AZ deciding who to prioritize?
2. So far, it has not issued any vaccine export bans.
3. The UK government has put in place export bans on numerous drugs used in the treatment of Covid-19. Presumably they wouldn' hesitate to put in place a vaccine export ban if they felt it was needed. But they don't feel that, because . . .
4. So far, there have been no vaccine exports from the UK. You have no need to ban things that aren't happening anyway. Vaccine exports aren't happening because . . .
5. The UK government has entered into contracts which AstraZenica, the only producer of vaccines in the UK, under which (in effect) AZ prioritises supplying the UK vaccination programme over other programmes. Thus the UK has secured by contract what amounts to a ban on the export of AZ vaccines, unless they are surplus to the UK's requirements. Since AZ's production of vaccines in the UK doesn't come anywhere near meeting the requirements of the UK vaccination programme - the programme depends on substantial imports, mostly from the EU - this has the same effect as an export ban.
For what it's worth, the position is pretty much the same in the US. There's no law in place banning exports, but the US has entered into contracts with producers which prevent the export of vaccines which are or might be required for the US vaccination programme and, as in the UK, the result is that not a single dose of vaccine has been exported from the US to any other country. We even have the absurd position that something like 10 million doses of the AZ vaccine are in storage in the US and can't be exported, even though right now they can't be used in the US vaccination programme because the necessary approvals aren't in place. Approval is expected at some point, so they might be used then, so they can't be exported.0 -
Peregrinus wrote: »1. UK law does allow the UK government to ban vaccine exports. But . . .
2. So far, it has not issued any vaccine export bans.
3. The UK government has put in place export bans on numerous drugs used in the treatment of Covid-19. Presumably they wouldn' hesitate to put in place a vaccine export ban if they felt it was needed. But they don't feel that, because . . .
4. So far, there have been no vaccine exports from the UK. You have no need to ban things that aren't happening anyway. Vaccine exports aren't happening because . . .
5. The UK government has entered into contracts which AstraZenica, the only producer of vaccines in the UK, under which (in effect) AZ prioritises supplying the UK vaccination programme over other programmes. Thus the UK has secured by contract what amounts to a ban on the export of AZ vaccines, unless they are surplus to the UK's requirements. Since AZ's production of vaccines in the UK doesn't come anywhere near meeting the requirements of the UK vaccination programme - the programme depends on substantial imports, mostly from the EU - this has the same effect as an export ban.
For what it's worth, the position is pretty much the same in the US. There's no law in place banning exports, but the US has entered into contracts with producers which prevent the export of vaccines which are or might be required for the US vaccination programme and, as in the UK, the result is that not a single dose of vaccine has been exported from the US to any other country. We even have the absurd position that something like 10 million doses of the AZ vaccine are in storage in the US and can't be exported, even though right now they can't be used in the US vaccination programme because the necessary approvals aren't in place. Approval is expected at some point, so they might be used then, so they can't be exported.
In which case it is a bit unfair to say (or allude that) the UK is banning exports as (to be fair) they were very quick to get contracts with many potential vaccine providers (they have ordered more than 350 million doses at a premium price point?), even before we knew which ones would be successful or not?
We don't slam the Israelis for their "testing" contract with Pfizzers.0 -
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What AZ has actually said is "Our UK domestic supply chain is not experiencing any disruption and there is no impact on our delivery schedule".The UK are about to have the same issues with Astra Zeneca
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-9373987/UK-vaccine-rollout-hit-need-retest-batches.html
UK: We will have to pause the roll out to under 50's to use what we have to on the most vunerable who have not received the vaccine as there are production issues with AZ and supplying
AZ: No production issues here!
So just like the EU problem, which is it?
The thing is, AZ's UK domestic supply chain is not sufficient to deliver the requirements of the UK's vaccination programme; the programme is reliant on a combination of domestic product and imports. And there are problems in AZ's production outside the UK - reportedly, in India - which will impact its delivery of vaccines to the UK.0
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