Brexit discussion thread XIV (Please read OP before posting)

wexfordman2

CelticRambler wrote: »

I think you're spending too much time reading British media. Here in continental Europe, no-one cares about Brexit any more. It's done, the Brits are "out" and there's definitely no destabilising happening. Our biggest concern with the vaccines is whether or not to use the AZ one (now restricted in France to the over 55s) and the spread of the Kent Covid variant.



To do what?

To ensure we display a united front for a start.

Seth Brundle

wexfordman2 wrote: »

To ensure we display a united front for a start.

Where is there not a united front?

CelticRambler

wexfordman2 wrote: »

To ensure we display a united front for a start.

The EU (of which Ireland is a part) has initiated legal proceedings against the UK in respect of its recent breaches of the NIP.

The EU (of which Ireland is a part) has indicated its intention to limit or ban the export of vaccines produced in the EU to countries that don't reciprocate (primarily the UK, even if it's not said out loud).

What other fronts do you want us to be united on? And on what fronts are we not united?

fly_agaric

wexfordman2 wrote: »

Martin doffing the cap again, Boris has even managed to recruit him:-



https://www.express.co.uk/news/politics/1412803/Boris-Johnson-news-vaccine-blockade-European-Union-allies-BBC-Andrew-Marr-Brussels-vn





"BORIS JOHNSON has recruited "key allies" inside the EU as Britain pushes back against Brussels' plan to block vaccine exports to the UK"

"But, Boris Johnson does seem to have done a good job in recruiting allies in Belgium, the Netherlands, Ireland - all of whom are much more reluctant to engage in this trade war."

Probably should not click...but as you'd expect I think they distort things for their audience.
Am sure there's many EU countries that believe blocking the export of the vaccines (to any country, incl. UK) made by companies that are more or less meeting all their EU order commitments & being fair + transparent when they have production issues is a bad idea. I've thought so myself.
That doesn't mean they are recruits of Boris Johnson or his catspaws inside the EU. Not everything is about Brexit & the UK.

I think it is AstraZeneca the EU/member states have had the problems with.
We've been told the UK is supplying itself as regards that vaccine now & not relying on EU imports, so there should be no worry/issue if the EU/member states stop AZ exports until they get closer to meeting their targets.

wexfordman2

CelticRambler wrote: »

The EU (of which Ireland is a part) has initiated legal proceedings against the UK in respect of its recent breaches of the NIP.

The EU (of which Ireland is a part) has indicated its intention to limit or ban the export of vaccines produced in the EU to countries that don't reciprocate (primarily the UK, even if it's not said out loud).

What other fronts do you want us to be united on? And on what fronts are we not united?

The EU has done so, and MM has said he does not approve of the export ban btw.

wexfordman2

fly_agaric wrote: »

Probably should not click...but as you'd expect I think they distort things for their audience.
Am sure there's many EU countries that believe blocking the export of the vaccines (to any country, incl. UK) made by companies that are more or less meeting all their EU order commitments & being fair + transparent when they have production issues is a bad idea. I've thought so myself.
That doesn't mean they are recruits of Boris Johnson or his catspaws inside the EU. Not everything is about Brexit & the UK.

I think it is AstraZeneca the EU/member states have had the problems with.
We've been told the UK is supplying itself as regards that vaccine now & not relying on EU imports, so there should be no worry/issue if the EU/member states stop AZ exports until they get closer to meeting their targets.

Absolutely they distort things for their audience, it's little more than a comic in news terms. To dismiss UK media however is a mistake, the UK media, by and large is now little more than a mouthpiece for UK government propaganda, it steers the narrative, stokes the divisions and sets the scene for current and future UK government policy, it should not be ignored or dismissed.

Hurrache

wexfordman2 wrote: »

I wouldn't pay much heed to the DE, but like I said, even a stopped watch is right twice a day. MM has in the very recent past made 2 hugely significant statements which pit Ireland alongside the UK against the EU, this being the second.

He hasn't though, and the Express is never right on anything EU related.

Kermit.de.frog

wexfordman2 wrote: »

Martin doffing the cap again, Boris has even managed to recruit him:-



https://www.express.co.uk/news/politics/1412803/Boris-Johnson-news-vaccine-blockade-European-Union-allies-BBC-Andrew-Marr-Brussels-vn

"BORIS JOHNSON has recruited "key allies" inside the EU as Britain pushes back against Brussels' plan to block vaccine exports to the UK"

"But, Boris Johnson does seem to have done a good job in recruiting allies in Belgium, the Netherlands, Ireland - all of whom are much more reluctant to engage in this trade war."

Well now that we have the view of the Daily Express...

What's the Dandys take on the situation?

The Daily Express is a mindless tabloid of the worst kind and I'm perplexed as to why it's considered a source recently.

It isn't. It's a propaganda paper for the lower rung Brexiter population who don't read beyond headlines.

CelticRambler

wexfordman2 wrote: »

the UK media, by and large is now little more than a mouthpiece for UK government propaganda, it steers the narrative, stokes the divisions and sets the scene for current and future UK government policy ...

Hang on a second. Let's get the perspective straight: it steers the narrative in the UK, stokes the divisions in the UK and sets the scene for current and future UK government policy Outside of the UK bubble, it's people like yourself who act as the mouthpiece, retweeting nonsense headlines, and trying to put them in context by making unsubstantiated allegations.

Here in the real-world EU, the only thing that matters is what the UK government does, not what it says its going to do or what a newspaper says it says its going to do, or what a Sky News commentator says a newspaper columnist says its going to do. As was pointed out several times over during the WA negotiations and during the TCA negotiations, we in the EU - even the non-English speaking countries - are perfectly well aware of what rubbish is printed and broadcast to the UK masses, and our strategy takes that into account when defining what we want from the deals. That's why, so far and in the limited experience of it that we've had to date, the EU always has the upper hand, and the UK has to fall in line.

wexfordman2

Kermit.de.frog wrote: »

Well now that we have the view of the Daily Express...

What's the Dandys take on the situation?

The Daily Express is a mindless tabloid of the worst kind and I'm perplexed as to why it's considered a source recently.

It isn't. It's a propaganda paper for the lower rung Brexiter population who don't read beyond headlines.

No argument on the gutter level of the DE, but my point still stands, and to be fair, the DE is usually in sync with the other daily british tabloids, but brexiteers lap it and the rest if them up, it is papers like these this type of media that fueled and delivered brexit in the first place.

Only a fool would dismiss or disregard them, they are a dangerous and potent tool and totally under the hand of the tory government.

wexfordman2

wexfordman2 wrote: »

Absolutely they distort things for their audience, it's little more than a comic in news terms. To dismiss UK media however is a mistake, the UK media, by and large is now little more than a mouthpiece for UK government propaganda, it steers the narrative, stokes the divisions and sets the scene for current and future UK government policy, it should not be ignored or dismissed.

A certain cohort in England really despise the EU now, if you go on the daily mail website every article on the EU has thousands and thousands of comments with 90% of the upvotes for comments rubbishing the EU.

I'm not sure how those people, likely hardened brexiteers can be reasoned with at the minute.

Seth Brundle

wexfordman2 wrote: »

Only a fool would dismiss or disregard them, they are a dangerous and potent tool and totally under the hand of the tory government.

There is a big difference between UK tabloids spouting their usual anti-EU nonsense and the potential political reaction from them and between one UK tabloid putting forwards claims that the Irish Taoiseach and other EU prime ministers are siding with the UK rather than the EU.
This is why the likes of the express should not be used as a news source - at all. Maybe their latest fairy tale will stoke up more anti-EU sentiment but what harm? They're no longer in the EU and they do actually need the EU a lot more that they claim to!
The UK has many problems, it's media being one of them. It will take a long time for them to change. However, the first change the UK needs is it's political system and this won't change for a long time; probably never!

Capt'n Midnight

Kermit.de.frog wrote: »

What's the Dandys take on the situation?

The Beano issued a cease-and-desist letter to MP Jacob Rees-Mogg claiming he has modelled himself on its character Walter the Softy.


https://ichef.bbci.co.uk/news/976/cpsprodpb/785A/production/_100701803_dz3iukvw0aaylp8.jpg

roosterman71

wexfordman2 wrote: »

Martin doffing the cap again, Boris has even managed to recruit him:-

https://www.express.co.uk/news/politics/1412803/Boris-Johnson-news-vaccine-blockade-European-Union-allies-BBC-Andrew-Marr-Brussels-vn

"BORIS JOHNSON has recruited "key allies" inside the EU as Britain pushes back against Brussels' plan to block vaccine exports to the UK"

"But, Boris Johnson does seem to have done a good job in recruiting allies in Belgium, the Netherlands, Ireland - all of whom are much more reluctant to engage in this trade war."

I'd class it as a recruitment failure by the looks of things
https://www.reuters.com/article/us-health-coronavirus-eu-uk/eu-rebuffs-uk-calls-to-ship-astrazeneca-covid-vaccines-from-europe-idUSKBN2BD0RZ?il=0

Interesting that the EU haven't approved the AZ site to supply vaccines but are yet going to stop it exporting.

wexfordman2

Hurrache wrote: »

He hasn't though, and the Express is never right on anything EU related.

Oh yes he has

https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/news/northern-ireland/martin-all-sides-need-to-dial-down-rhetoric-over-northern-ireland-protocol-40078944.html

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.thesun.ie/news/6718556/micheal-martin-covid-19-astrazeneca-ema-approval/amp/

"The EU Commission president has today threatened to restrict exports of Covid-19 vaccines to Britain today and said that it's in the "crisis of the century".

She warned that the EU could restrict exports of the Covid-19 vaccine outside of the EU if there is no mutual openness about when they will make vaccines available for Europeans.

Speaking on this, the Taoiseach said he knows there is "annoyance and angst" in the EU currently over more vaccines being exported from the EU to the UK than the other way around.

But he said he thinks there is a danger to banning exports and overall would be against the idea."

Hurrache

He's not in the pocket of Johnson, you can put that to bed now. Sure aren't we their enemies.
https://twitter.com/TelePolitics/status/1373401413389271044?s=19

ancapailldorcha

Deleted User wrote: »

A certain cohort in England really despise the EU now, if you go on the daily mail website every article on the EU has thousands and thousands of comments with 90% of the upvotes for comments rubbishing the EU.

I'm not sure how those people, likely hardened brexiteers can be reasoned with at the minute.

The comments sections of the Daily Mail's online articles is an appalling metric. You're just purposefully selecting for the most extreme opinion here and presenting it as reality.

I'd rather use something that's at least intended to be objective:



https://www.businessinsider.com/brexit-poll-most-british-people-want-to-rejoin-eu-2020-6?r=US&IR=T

You're never going to win over hardened Brexiters. You need to make a positive case for EU membership and do it consistently for years. The remian side lost. They need to learn why so they can evolve and move forward.

yagan

roosterman71 wrote: »

Interesting that the EU haven't approved the AZ site to supply vaccines but are yet going to stop it exporting.

The Dutch and German AstraZeneca factories have already be used for producing the EU and UK supply so which EU AstraZeneca factory isn't approved?

roosterman71

yagan wrote: »

The Dutch and German AstraZeneca factories have already be used for producing the EU and UK supply so which EU AstraZeneca factory isn't approved?

Reuters article wrote:

AstraZeneca has not yet sought approval in the EU for Halix, but the official and a second EU source said the request was on its way.

It's a sub-contractor for AZ

CelticRambler

wexfordman2 wrote: »

Oh yes he has

https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/news/northern-ireland/martin-all-sides-need-to-dial-down-rhetoric-over-northern-ireland-protocol-40078944.html

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.thesun.ie/news/6718556/micheal-martin-covid-19-astrazeneca-ema-approval/amp/

You referred to MM making "hugely significant" statements. By way of evidence, you again link to interviews reported in British publications, neither of which report any statement by MM of huge significance.

But, if you're going down that road of unreliable sources, did you miss the last paragraph in the Sun?

"I think there needs to be proper engagement between the UK and EU on this in terms of working out a resolution tot his because what has emerged essentially is, in terms of the supply of AstraZeneca, it's Europe that has lost out."

Sounds like MM is batting for our side there - so where's the lack of unity that you're criticising him (or the EU) for?

murphaph

yagan wrote: »

The Dutch and German AstraZeneca factories have already be used for producing the EU and UK supply so which EU AstraZeneca factory isn't approved?

AZ makes vaccine at only two facilities in the EU, in Belgium and this Halix subcontractor in the Netherlands. The vaccine is packaged into vials in two other plants in Germany and Italy.

IMO AZ intentionally delayed submitting the required paperwork to allow Halix to be certified by the EMA. They are absolute gangsters.

The UK needs to be careful here. They have a far greater reliance on AZ which is known to protect little against mild and moderate cases of the SA variant. It's unknown if it provides any protection against serious cases. The Biontech vaccine does provide protection against the SA variant (though it's less effective than against the earlier in strains).

The UK might need a lot of Biontech and fast if the SA variant takes hold there once their own variant dies back.

I believe the mRNA vaccines like Biontech Moderna and CureVac can be modified more quickly to tackle new variants too. Biontech and CureVac are German.

fly_agaric

wexfordman2 wrote: »

Oh yes he has

https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/news/northern-ireland/martin-all-sides-need-to-dial-down-rhetoric-over-northern-ireland-protocol-40078944.html

Agree that was very poor alright, was discussed here at the time.

wexfordman2 wrote: »

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.thesun.ie/news/6718556/micheal-martin-covid-19-astrazeneca-ema-approval/amp/

"The EU Commission president has today threatened to restrict exports of Covid-19 vaccines to Britain today and said that it's in the "crisis of the century".

She warned that the EU could restrict exports of the Covid-19 vaccine outside of the EU if there is no mutual openness about when they will make vaccines available for Europeans.

Speaking on this, the Taoiseach said he knows there is "annoyance and angst" in the EU currently over more vaccines being exported from the EU to the UK than the other way around.

But he said he thinks there is a danger to banning exports and overall would be against the idea."

There could be a confusion between blocking all sorts of vaccine exports from the EU to the UK or other countries, and the EU/member states taking measures against AZ specifically.

It must be fairly common knowledge now that the AZ EU order shortfall hobbled our vaccination programme so far.

If he opposes measures against AZ + tries to put a stop to it somehow at EU level + lets the company export millions more vaccines from the EU to the UK, I think he'll know the electorate here may not be best pleased with him (leaving aside what the other EU members will think of it!)

wexfordman2 wrote: »

To dismiss UK media however is a mistake, the UK media, by and large is now little more than a mouthpiece for UK government propaganda, it steers the narrative, stokes the divisions and sets the scene for current and future UK government policy, it should not be ignored or dismissed.

I don't dismiss them. Alot of the UK newspapers (like the Express) are awful and have been for many years.
They must have at least some effect on UK public opinion. If they had little or no impact, the owners would not funnel money into them + the government would not care what they print.
For that reason we here in Ireland should take what they say when it comes to Irish or EU politics (such as Micheál Martin's position on things) with a large grain of salt, and yes, try & ignore it.
If the likes of the Express or the Sun pay attention to us here at all, it's going to be distorted heavily + twisted to fit their readers' prejudices, or what they want their audience to believe at the moment.
In article you linked it seemed to be idea that the doughty UK has "allies" in its righteous battles against the evil vaccine thief EU.
(I'd imagine) every other leader + politician around the EU must be just so, so sick of the UK govt. now and wish they'd honour all the agreements they signed up to and then go píss off, leave us alone and be quiet for a while!
Would be very surprised if they have many queueing up to put the UK govt. position forward and go to bat for them in the EU.
Yes, our government is most likely to do that out of the 27, but it is obvious from other public comments by Coveney etc. that patience here is pretty much exhausted too.

murphaph

What Ireland should absolutely not do is take any UK donations without sharing them or insisting they be shared around the EU states that were part of the EU procurement deal.

While our EU partners might not notice people in border regions getting a sneaky jab (also benefits NI border regions of course) they certainly will notice us looking after ourselves and an awful lot of goodwill towards us will evaporate, right when we need it most over the NIP.

dogbert27

murphaph wrote: »

What Ireland should absolutely not do is take any UK donations without sharing them or insisting they be shared around the EU states that were part of the EU procurement deal.

While our EU partners might not notice people in border regions getting a sneaky jab (also benefits NI border regions of course) they certainly will notice us looking after ourselves and an awful lot of goodwill towards us will evaporate, right when we need it most over the NIP.

I don't see any other country making this vaccine issue a "them vs us" like the UK have.

It's a total distraction to the UK public of the problems being faced due to not being ready for Brexit and the fact that the UK has the highest death rate in Europe and while yes there numbers are now coming down their death figure for last week was still in the hundreds when for example the death rate of Finland is just over 800 for 12 months.

ongarite

UK trade with Ireland and EU in January down massively YOY.
Have to wait another month to see if there was a slight rebound.

https://twitter.com/adampayne26/status/1373974501998915585

rock22

CelticRambler wrote: »

You referred to MM making "hugely significant" statements. By way of evidence, you again link to interviews reported in British publications, neither of which report any statement by MM of huge significance.

But, if you're going down that road of unreliable sources, did you miss the last paragraph in the Sun?



Sounds like MM is batting for our side there - so where's the lack of unity that you're criticising him (or the EU) for?

MM , just now on RTE , confirming what Wexfordman2 has stated.
Clearly BJ has managed to get MM on side against the EU

CelticRambler

rock22 wrote: »

MM , just now on RTE , confirming what Wexfordman2 has stated.
Clearly BJ has managed to get MM on side against the EU

Nope. For those that haven't been living under Daily Mail/Express rocks for the last thirty years, there has always been a variety of opinions expressed within the EU about actions that the EU talks about taking. The fact that Johnson, Prime Minister of a third country, happens to have the same opinion as some EU politicians does not make a comment by Micheál Martin "hugely significant" and certainly does not indicate that he has recruited "allies" against the EU.

The only thing that's "hugely significant" about any of this is that some people - including some Irish - seem to forget that we civilised EUropeans govern by consensus and compromise, while many third countries are still stuck in a mediaeval, feudal, winner-takes-all, mindset.

rock22

CelticRambler wrote: »

Nope. For those that haven't been living under Daily Mail/Express rocks for the last thirty years, there has always been a variety of opinions expressed within the EU about actions that the EU talks about taking. The fact that Johnson, Prime Minister of a third country, happens to have the same opinion as some EU politicians does not make a comment by Micheál Martin "hugely significant" and certainly does not indicate that he has recruited "allies" against the EU.

The only thing that's "hugely significant" about any of this is that some people - including some Irish - seem to forget that we civilised EUropeans govern by consensus and compromise, while many third countries are still stuck in a mediaeval, feudal, winner-takes-all, mindset.

MM has been absolutely silent for the past three monts on the UK refusal to export any vaccine to EU, including Ireland. But now that the EU are considering retaining vaccine for the use of EU citizens , we have MM parroting the same line as Johnson that we need to compromise etc.
Do we really have to draw the lines?

Padre_Pio

rock22 wrote: »

MM has been absolutely silent for the past three monts on the UK refusal to export any vaccine to EU, including Ireland. But now that the EU are considering retaining vaccine for the use of EU citizens , we have MM parroting the same line as Johnson that we need to compromise etc.
Do we really have to draw the lines?

Well that's not true at all.

MM has not been silent on the issues of vaccine exports, a quick google will tell you that.
Also, he's right to suggest a compromise.

There's a severe Us vs. Them attitude going on between the UK and EU and this is not benefitting anyone. Vaccines shouldn't be a card to play in Brexit negotiations.

schmoo2k

rock22 wrote: »

MM has been absolutely silent for the past three monts on the UK refusal to export any vaccine to EU, including Ireland. But now that the EU are considering retaining vaccine for the use of EU citizens , we have MM parroting the same line as Johnson that we need to compromise etc.
Do we really have to draw the lines?

The UK hasn't refused to export any vaccines - AZ are prioritizing which products go where...