Brexit discussion thread XIV (Please read OP before posting)

murphaph

Somebody suggested to me that former remainers that have turned leavers might be suffering from a form of Stockholm syndrome.

Strazdas

murphaph wrote: »

Somebody suggested to me that former remainers that have turned leavers might be suffering from a form of Stockholm syndrome.

I'd guess that a lot of these waverers were probably influenced by the anti-EU propaganda over the years without even realising it. The fact that they could so easily 'switch sides' would suggest they were never fully committed to the idea of EU membership.

ancapailldorcha

murphaph wrote: »

Somebody suggested to me that former remainers that have turned leavers might be suffering from a form of Stockholm syndrome.

I'm not seeing it. Come 2017, the Remain-Leave axis had reset to business as usual. People went back quite quickly to their old voting habits, namely Conservative and Labour. The Liberal Democrats tried hoovering up the Remain vote but this failed for that reason.

I think that most people here in the UK who try to follow politics have found themselves deadened by what Michael Gove described as "Shock & Awe tactics" and this was all pre-covid. I think a lot of people just feel powerless in the face of the mandate Johnson won with less than half the vote in December 2019. You look at some of the absolute, utter nonsense being parrotted by some of these people such as Priti Patel's obsession with Ascension Island, Matt Hancock begging for thanks or the fact that raping a woman is a lesser sin than damaging a hunk of plaster.

It no longer bothers me that the public voted to Leave. What bothers me is that it all seems to be for nothing. Vast, vast reserves of soft power and influence just discarded in favour of posturing about nonsense. Johnson is effectively fiddling while parts of the country burn. More and more, I get the vibe that wasting inordinate amounts of time on trifles as the current government are doing is redolent of the corruption I read about in history books dealing with the fall of the Roman, Mughal or Ottoman empires. There's so much facing this country and a lot of that was completely invented by a man who was just that desperate to become PM so he could... what, exactly? Outsource himself to Dominic Cummings?

Some of the remain demographic might have latched onto the vaccine thing but I don't know. I think it's just that years and years of defeat and media blitzkrieg have finally taken a toll and there's just no fight left. A year ago, I decided to hunker down as we entered the initial lockdown. I'm now fully convinced that this country deserves the catastrophe that it willingly and unnecessarily foisted upon itself and that the only way to prevent it is for the Conservatives to overreach and mess up to the extent that it does immediate and massive damage. That might wake the country up but I'm not seeing it.

Strazdas

ancapailldorcha wrote: »

I'm not seeing it. Come 2017, the Remain-Leave axis had reset to business as usual. People went back quite quickly to their old voting habits, namely Conservative and Labour. The Liberal Democrats tried hoovering up the Remain vote but this failed for that reason.

I think that most people here in the UK who try to follow politics have found themselves deadened by what Michael Gove described as "Shock & Awe tactics" and this was all pre-covid. I think a lot of people just feel powerless in the face of the mandate Johnson won with less than half the vote in December 2019. You look at some of the absolute, utter nonsense being parrotted by some of these people such as Priti Patel's obsession with Ascension Island, Matt Hancock begging for thanks or the fact that raping a woman is a lesser sin than damaging a hunk of plaster.

It no longer bothers me that the public voted to Leave. What bothers me is that it all seems to be for nothing. Vast, vast reserves of soft power and influence just discarded in favour of posturing about nonsense. Johnson is effectively fiddling while parts of the country burn. More and more, I get the vibe that wasting inordinate amounts of time on trifles as the current government are doing is redolent of the corruption I read about in history books dealing with the fall of the Roman, Mughal or Ottoman empires. There's so much facing this country and a lot of that was completely invented by a man who was just that desperate to become PM so he could... what, exactly? Outsource himself to Dominic Cummings?

Some of the remain demographic might have latched onto the vaccine thing but I don't know. I think it's just that years and years of defeat and media blitzkrieg have finally taken a toll and there's just no fight left. A year ago, I decided to hunker down as we entered the initial lockdown. I'm now fully convinced that this country deserves the catastrophe that it willingly and unnecessarily foisted upon itself and that the only way to prevent it is for the Conservatives to overreach and mess up to the extent that it does immediate and massive damage. That might wake the country up but I'm not seeing it.

One thing that worries me a bit is that the UK might be going the East Germany / North Korea route. A rogue authoritarian government convinces the population that they alone are the noble and high minded ones and that they are surrounded by a load of horrible and degenerate neighbouring states. I saw English posters confidently state on social media this week that anyone supporting the EU on the vaccines issue is "existing inside their own bubble" and "echo chamber" whilst the UK is 100% in the right.

So we're into the absurd situation of the under siege Brexiteers thinking they have right and justice on their side, whilst the 440m EU citizens are brainwashed and propping up a corrupt political union. Psychological projection to the max.

murphaph

A depressing picture is emerging. I see a long period of animosity between the EU and UK ahead of us.

ancapailldorcha

Strazdas wrote: »

One thing that worries me a bit is that the UK might be going the East Germany / North Korea route. A rogue authoritarian government convinces the population that they alone are the noble and high minded ones and that they are surrounded by a load of horrible and degenerate neighbouring states. I saw English posters confidently state on social media this week that anyone supporting the EU on the vaccines issue is "existing inside their own bubble" and "echo chamber" whilst the UK is 100% in the right.

So we're into the absurd situation of the under siege Brexiteers thinking they have right and justice on their side, whilst the 440m EU citizens are brainwashed and propping up a corrupt political union. Psychological projection to the max.

I don't. Newspapers have been selling less and less as time has went on. Social media is hardly an improvement but at least the lefties have their own echo chambers now whereas most of the media is quite right wing.

I'd stick to my previous statement that most people here are just fed up and exhausted. On top of that, Johnson wields untrammelled power because of the voting system, not because the public here are in love with him.

I naively thought that Brexit would be done and he might even have started "levelling up" at this point pre-covid but that was never the point.

murphaph wrote: »

A depressing picture is emerging. I see a long period of animosity between the EU and UK ahead of us.

Exactly. Conservatism is no longer powered by ideas. It's powered by division and conflict. The Tory party is going to make this the new norm here because they simply have nothing else. There are no great thinkers in today's British right. They've been eschewed for the real life equivalents of culture warriors from the internet and it's working.

20silkcut

murphaph wrote: »

A depressing picture is emerging. I see a long period of animosity between the EU and UK ahead of us.

Ireland needs to get to grips with where it stands on this. In fairness I have been following this thread since the referendum in 2016 and when it comes to predicting the behaviour of the British government this thread has been spot on. Particularly post Johnson appointment.
Far more than what you read in mainstream papers or even general political discussion among friends and acquaintances. And it seems our Taoiseach is also in the camp of no way could the British government be that bad or malevolent.

Strazdas

ancapailldorcha wrote: »

I don't. Newspapers have been selling less and less as time has went on. Social media is hardly an improvement but at least the lefties have their own echo chambers now whereas most of the media is quite right wing.

I'd stick to my previous statement that most people here are just fed up and exhausted. On top of that, Johnson wields untrammelled power because of the voting system, not because the public here are in love with him.

I naively thought that Brexit would be done and he might even have started "levelling up" at this point pre-covid but that was never the point.

But if even half or 40% of the population believe this - that the UK is noble and high minded and surrounded by horrible, corrupt countries - then Britain is in big, big trouble. Most democracies don't live in a state of total paranoia about their near neighbours.

ancapailldorcha

Strazdas wrote: »

But if even half or 40% of the population believe this - that the UK is noble and high minded and surrounded by horrible, corrupt countries - then Britain is in big, big trouble. Most democracies don't live in a state of total paranoia about their near neighbours.

I don't know if they do though. A lot of people just vote Tory or Labour based on how their parents voted, how much wealth they have, what part of the country they live in, etc... Each side sees their party as the lesser of two evils IME. Tory voters are sceptical of Labour overspending and Corbyn while Labour voters see the Tory party as a vehicle of institutional racism and classism not to mention being the party of the 1%.

And as for total paranoia, are you sure? I mean, I doubt the Luxembourgers are too worried about migration and you're probably right about most democracies but there are those that do such as the US and Hungary. I don't think it's healthy to keep a population afraid of the foreigner in the long term but it's been a goldmine for populists and demagogues.

yagan

ancapailldorcha wrote: »

I don't. Newspapers have been selling less and less as time has went on. Social media is hardly an improvement but at least the lefties have their own echo chambers now whereas most of the media is quite right wing.

I think the biggest problem is that the Tory's have read the demographics precisely and with half of the eligible electorate over the age of 55 they reckon they can tell as many whoppers to the befuddled as long as messages are heavily infused with lashings of jingoistic nostalgia for a misremembered past.

The number one priority of any government is reelection and having looked at the Brexit voter age profile they correctly reckoned they were onto a sure thing to trash the UKs relationship with the EU when the core of their vote only watches the BBC and whose international travel is a few weeks each year in some Brit centric enclave in Spain/Portugal.

The Tory's number priority for the rest of the term is to keep tension with the EU simmering, although having won a thumping majority to "just get Brexit done" I wonder if the gerontocracy have another revolt in them.

Strazdas

ancapailldorcha wrote: »

I don't know if they do though. A lot of people just vote Tory or Labour based on how their parents voted, how much wealth they have, what part of the country they live in, etc... Each side sees their party as the lesser of two evils IME. Tory voters are sceptical of Labour overspending and Corbyn while Labour voters see the Tory party as a vehicle of institutional racism and classism not to mention being the party of the 1%.

And as for total paranoia, are you sure? I mean, I doubt the Luxembourgers are too worried about migration and you're probably right about most democracies but there are those that do such as the US and Hungary. I don't think it's healthy to keep a population afraid of the foreigner in the long term but it's been a goldmine for populists and demagogues.

What really worries me is that Britain has 27 neighbours (near and not so near), but somehow thinks a strategy of having an antagonistic and strained relationship with these neighbours for the next few years is the way to go. This is normally the way tinpot dictatorships conduct themselves.

The whole vaccine thing and the EU being portrayed as an enemy is hideous to watch. The so called "win" of the vaccine rollout is going to come at a terrible cost....the country deliberately going down the route of isolation and protectionism, a la De Valera in the 1940s and 1950s.

Professor Moriarty

yagan wrote: »

I think the biggest problem is that the Tory's have read the demographics precisely and with half of the eligible electorate over the age of 55 they reckon they can tell as many whoppers to the befuddled as long as messages are heavily infused with lashings of jingoistic nostalgia for a misremembered past.

The number one priority of any government is reelection and having looked at the Brexit voter age profile they correctly reckoned they were onto a sure thing to trash the UKs relationship with the EU when the core of their vote only watches the BBC and whose international travel is a few weeks each year in some Brit centric enclave in Spain/Portugal.

The Tory's number priority for the rest of the term is to keep tension with the EU simmering, although having won a thumping majority to "just get Brexit done" I wonder if the gerontocracy have another revolt in them.

Interestingly, the Tory press is incessantly attacking the BBC for being anti-Tory. The Telegraph, in particular, has daily op-ed pieces highlighting how its Remainer and Woke biases must be curtailed and new management installed.

rock22

20silkcut wrote: »

Ireland needs to get to grips with where it stands on this.....

And it seems our Taoiseach is also in the camp of no way could the British government be that bad or malevolent.

German media reporting on this seem supportive of the export ban. I am also reading this as the EU 'have' imposed the ban.

RTE are reporting that Taoiseach and three other countries are opposing the ban but also say there will be no vote on this at the virtual summit today.

Does the Council have to approve the ban or can the Commission impose the ban?

It seems a strange position for MM to take , prioritising BJ and the Uk over Irish and EU deaths.

CelticRambler

rock22 wrote: »

It seems a strange position for MM to take , prioritising BJ and the Uk over Irish and EU deaths.

Are you back to this again? :rolleyes: What is wrong with MM expressing his opposition to a measure that will restrict constructive collaboration with Switzerland and Norway?

rock22

CelticRambler wrote: »

Are you back to this again? :rolleyes: What is wrong with MM expressing his opposition to a measure that will restrict constructive collaboration with Switzerland and Norway?

I am not back to it, the EU Commission is back to it.

In what way does it limit constructive collaboration with Norway or Switzerland'?
'
Or limit constructive collaboration with any country for that matter.

The Commission intend to add ' the principles of "proportionality and reciprocity" into the transparency mechanism that was introduced at the end of January and will assess "case by case" the export requests from pharmaceutical companies.'

On the basis of these criteria "The Commission will then issue an opinion and the national body will decide whether or not to grant the export authorisation."

Nothing about collaboration, and nothing about Norway or Switzerland. It is about ensuring a proportionate supply for EU citizens when AstraZeneca have consistently exported vaccine from the EU to the UK despite having entered into a contract to supply the Eu and refusing to ship any vaccine from UK to EU because of an a hidden arrangement with the UK.

So yes, I find it curious that Mm would oppose this enhancing of the procedure for export of the vaccine.

CelticRambler

rock22 wrote: »

In what way does it limit constructive collaboration with Norway or Switzerland'?

The export restrictions apply to all non-EU countries, including EEA countries. From euronews.com

Another important update is the suspension of the exemption for countries on the fringes of the EU, which were not covered by January's proposal. The ones now subject to scrutiny are: Albania, Armenia, Azerbaijan, Belarus, Bosnia and Herzegovina, Georgia, Israel, Jordan, Iceland, Lebanon, Libya, Liechtenstein, Montenegro, Norway, North Macedonia, Serbia and Switzerland.

Like the Brexiters and their obsession with the EU, you seem determined to twist every word uttered by MM into some kind of pro-Johnson alliance. There are other (third) countries in the world, besides GB. Not everything is about them!

J Mysterio

In comparison to his predecessor, Michael Martin has been weak on Brexit, no doubt about it. He is trying to walk this fine line where one boot stays in the EU camp, while the other flirts with the UK. It's the wrong approach. He wants to avoid antagonising the UK, but the UK have behaved dispicably for years, and we owe them little, if anything in the way of nicey nicey. Everytime Martin is asked about Brexit he engages in hand wringing and whataboutery.

I was much happier with the Varadkar approach, and - strangely - Fine Gael were much more firm with the UK. McEntee was good, but Coveney has undoubtedly been our strongest politician on Brexit. It's great he remained as minister for foreign affairs, but would like to hear more from him and less from Martin.

Even the pandemic was better handled during the FG administration. Martin and FF haven't impressed at all

ancapailldorcha

My colleague just told me about this.

Ministers have ordered the union flag to be flown every day on all UK government buildings in Britain under new guidance that also states planning permission will be needed to fly an EU flag.

Currently, union flags are only required to be flown on designated days, but new guidance will ask for it to be flown all the time as a “proud reminder of our history and the ties that bind us”.

The government has also “cut red tape” to allow “dual flagging” – where two flags can be flown on one pole. Where organisations have two flag poles, they can fly the union flag alongside another flag.

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/union-jack-flag-eu-buildings-b1822026.html

There's a very strong whiff of a desperate government trying to cover up the decline they brought about with flag waving. I'm genuinely wondering how much credibility the UK has left abroad, especially in Washington, Bejing & Brussels.

dogbert27

ancapailldorcha wrote: »

My colleague just told me about this.



https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/union-jack-flag-eu-buildings-b1822026.html

There's a very strong whiff of a desperate government trying to cover up the decline they brought about with flag waving. I'm genuinely wondering how much credibility the UK has left abroad, especially in Washington, Bejing & Brussels.

I don't think it's for Brexit but it's mainly a dig a the SNP and Scottish Independence to remind them they are trapped in the Union.

Seth Brundle

They have been pushing this flag thing for about a week now. Apparently all interviews with government politicians must have the union flag behind the politician. This has been widely mocked on twitter e.g.
https://twitter.com/BorisJohnson_MP/status/1374835964657426436

The Raging Bile Duct

What happens if Scotland leaves. Will the Union Jack have to be redesigned?

ancapailldorcha

The Raging Bile Duct wrote: »

What happens if Scotland leaves. Will the Union Jack have to be redesigned?

Doubt it. St. Patrick's Saltire is still represented despite Ireland seceding from the UK. The Welsh are not represented on the Union flag at all.

fiveleavesleft

Seth Brundle wrote: »

They have been pushing this flag thing for about a week now. Apparently all interviews with government politicians must have the union flag behind the politician. This has been widely mocked on twitter e.g.
https://twitter.com/BorisJohnson_MP/status/1374835964657426436

Starmer has them on the run. He was wrapping himself in flags weeks ago.

murphaph

ancapailldorcha wrote: »

Doubt it. St. Patrick's Saltire is still represented despite Ireland seceding from the UK. The Welsh are not represented on the Union flag at all.

NI reapplied immediately though, so I guess the St. Patrick's saltire is still just about appropriate.

schmoo2k

rock22 wrote: »

German media reporting on this seem supportive of the export ban. I am also reading this as the EU 'have' imposed the ban.

RTE are reporting that Taoiseach and three other countries are opposing the ban but also say there will be no vote on this at the virtual summit today.

Does the Council have to approve the ban or can the Commission impose the ban?

It seems a strange position for MM to take , prioritising BJ and the Uk over Irish and EU deaths.

Ethically a lot of folks would be anti-vaccine nationalism (myself included), plus its hard to take moral high ground against the US and UK if we go down this road (depending on how restrictive we go).

IMO I would like to see the majority of the EU vaccinated before October / Winter comes around (based on last years Covid trends), without limiting exports (not sure its possible).

The fact that Israel / USA / UK are ahead is not relevant to my ethics.

Larry Bee

ancapailldorcha wrote: »

My colleague just told me about this.

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/union-jack-flag-eu-buildings-b1822026.html

There's a very strong whiff of a desperate government trying to cover up the decline they brought about with flag waving. I'm genuinely wondering how much credibility the UK has left abroad, especially in Washington, Bejing & Brussels.

The DUP are dusting off their Union Jack flags already.

ArmaniJeanss

J Mysterio wrote: »

I was much happier with the Varadkar approach, and - strangely - Fine Gael were much more firm with the UK. McEntee was good, but Coveney has undoubtedly been our strongest politician on Brexit. It's great he remained as minister for foreign affairs, but would like to hear more from him and less from Martin.

Could argue LeoV threw Johnson too large a bone re the NI protocol in October 2019 at a time when it looked like all options were still possible (government of national unity with Corbyn/Swinson/SNP, possible 2nd ref).

Johnson managed to twist these small changes into being a new deal and get a stonking majority under 'over ready deal' & 'get Brexit done'.

Varadkar arguably has a sizeable responsibility for where we are now - late 2019 was a time for doing nothing and letting the Tories hang themselves further.

ancapailldorcha

ArmaniJeanss wrote: »

Could argue LeoV threw Johnson too large a bone re the NI protocol in October 2019 at a time when it looked like all options were still possible (government of national unity with Corbyn/Swinson/SNP, possible 2nd ref).

Johnson managed to twist these small changes into being a new deal and get a stonking majority under 'over ready deal' & 'get Brexit done'.

Varadkar arguably has a sizeable responsibility for where we are now - late 2019 was a time for doing nothing and letting the Tories hang themselves further.

I don't really have an issue with what was agreed. The problem is the UK constantly looking to deviate after ratifying the agreement.

Igotadose

ArmaniJeanss wrote: »

Could argue LeoV threw Johnson too large a bone re the NI protocol in October 2019 at a time when it looked like all options were still possible (government of national unity with Corbyn/Swinson/SNP, possible 2nd ref).

Johnson managed to twist these small changes into being a new deal and get a stonking majority under 'over ready deal' & 'get Brexit done'.

Varadkar arguably has a sizeable responsibility for where we are now - late 2019 was a time for doing nothing and letting the Tories hang themselves further.

You'd prefer they'd have devolved to "WTO rules" and a hard border?

I don't think the UK or it's pols deserve any slack for the state they're in. They wanted it, they got it.

CelticRambler

ancapailldorcha wrote: »

Doubt it. St. Patrick's Saltire is still represented despite Ireland seceding from the UK. The Welsh are not represented on the Union flag at all.

St. Patrick was Welsh, so it could be argued that his saltire serves a dual purpose! :cool:

On the one hand, this whole flag-waving carry-on makes it look like the DUP have infected the Tory leadership to a far greater extent than we previously thought ... but on the other, here in France, there's a French tricolour on just about every government building, half the schools, a host of national monuments and no end of lamp-posts. Some people hang duvets out their windows, some people hang flags. Small beer in the grand scheme of things, regardless of who's doing it.