Brexit discussion thread XIV (Please read OP before posting)

ArmaniJeanss

ancapailldorcha wrote: »

I don't really have an issue with what was agreed. The problem is the UK constantly looking to deviate after ratifying the agreement.

I'd agree that the substance of what was agreed wasn't particularly objectionable.
But it did give Johnson a huge 'out' to label it as a better deal that he'd negotiated and to run with the election-winning 'oven ready deal' etc.

Now that's not necessarily Varadkars fault so much as it's the inability of the Corbyn and Swinson campaign teams to come up with a coherent rebuttal.

But ultimately the facts are that for no great reason, Varadkar agreed a concession/rewording that led to a clever PM being able to rid the party of all Europhiles, hasten Brexit and likely destroy Labour/LibDem as an electoral force for the rest of the decade. And as you say, they still try to deviate from this agreement at every opportunity.

It's not exactly a shining moment for Varadkar.

BonnieSituation

ancapailldorcha wrote: »

Doubt it. St. Patrick's Saltire is still represented despite Ireland seceding from the UK. The Welsh are not represented on the Union flag at all.

Part of Ireland is still in the UK. Hence the Saltire remains.

ancapailldorcha

CelticRambler wrote: »

St. Patrick was Welsh, so it could be argued that his saltire serves a dual purpose! :cool:

On the one hand, this whole flag-waving carry-on makes it look like the DUP have infected the Tory leadership to a far greater extent than we previously thought ... but on the other, here in France, there's a French tricolour on just about every government building, half the schools, a host of national monuments and no end of lamp-posts. Some people hang duvets out their windows, some people hang flags. Small beer in the grand scheme of things, regardless of who's doing it.

I prefer the old fleur-de-lis variants myself but there's nothing wrong with a good tricolour.

I don't think it's DUP contamination. That ascribes far too much importance to them in my opinion. I think that it's the Tory party trying to use a post-culture war patriots vs Britain haters narrative to try and unite their voting base and shore it up. It's the same explanation for the recent draconian legislation on statues.

ancapailldorcha

BonnieSituation wrote: »

Part of Ireland is still in the UK. Hence the Saltire remains.

I'm not so sure. NI's flag is a St. George's cross with a red hand of Ulster superimposed on its centre. I doubt anyone in the 1920's was going to make a new flag just a few years after the disaster that was the First World War.

yagan

BonnieSituation wrote: »

Part of Ireland is still in the UK. Hence the Saltire remains.

Actually neither parts of Ireland retained the Saltaire after partition, so with two separate parliaments in Dublin and Belfast neither part of the Island were in direct union with Britain.

Stormont even had the right to refuse a British catholic moving over for work and there was nothing London could do about it.

There was a cost analysis done back in the 1920s about changing the UJ to reflect the new situation but it was thought not worth the cost or effort to change every UJ in the empire.

Edit to add there was a book out about a decade ago called Vanished Kingdoms by historian Norman Davies in which he concluded that the UK was a demerging union since the Easter Rising and his prediction then was that the English euroskeptic urge would be the spark that would finish the job. I'm looking at that book on my shelf right now, might have a reread of that particular chapter if it rains.

BlitzKrieg

I did see some pushing by unionist individuals during paddy's day on twitter on using the Saltaire (and by extension Union Jack) to celebrate Paddy's day over the Tri-colour.

yagan

BlitzKrieg wrote: »

I did see some pushing by unionist individuals during paddy's day on twitter on using the Saltaire (and by extension Union Jack) to celebrate Paddy's day over the Tri-colour.

I could well imagine but the saint patrick was never associated with an x cross.

Unless I'm mistaken is it the flag of the Church of Ireland, over which the English monarch is head?

Strazdas

ancapailldorcha wrote: »

My colleague just told me about this.



https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/union-jack-flag-eu-buildings-b1822026.html

There's a very strong whiff of a desperate government trying to cover up the decline they brought about with flag waving. I'm genuinely wondering how much credibility the UK has left abroad, especially in Washington, Bejing & Brussels.

I'm pretty sure this doesn't happen in Ireland. The only places to fly the flag are the Dáil and Government buildings (Taoiseach's office). Other ministries /departments don't fly it and you wouldn't even be aware they were government places when you pass them in the street.

There seems to be a definite attempt by the Brexit Govt to link the Tory Party with 'British nationalism'. If you are a nationalist or a patriot, then the Tories are the only party for you.....everyone other party is deemed as somewhat impure and perhaps even as anti-British (it's actually a clever strategy and one used by most authoritarian regimes).

FrancieBrady

ancapailldorcha wrote: »

I'm not so sure. NI's flag is a St. George's cross with a red hand of Ulster superimposed on its centre. I doubt anyone in the 1920's was going to make a new flag just a few years after the disaster that was the First World War.

There is no official flag of NI.

L1011

yagan wrote: »

I could well imagine but the saint patrick was never associated with an x cross.

Unless I'm mistaken is it the flag of the Church of Ireland, over which the English monarch is head?

The Church of Ireland use it, but its not their flag (they didn't develop it and are not the only body to use it); and the COI do the monarch as their head since disestablishment in 1871

Strazdas

FrancieBrady wrote: »

There is no official flag of NI.

I believe NI unionists much prefer the Union Jack in fact as their flag of choice - allegiance to an NI flag would suggest a separate identity and they don't want a separate identity, they want to be considered as British only.

So the red hand flag is not really popular with anyone in the province.

View

yagan wrote: »

I could well imagine but the saint patrick was never associated with an x cross.

Unless I'm mistaken is it the flag of the Church of Ireland, over which the English monarch is head?

The “Saint Patrick’s Cross” used in the union flag comes from the heraldry of the FitzGerald clan. They were the only clan in Ireland powerful/loyal enough to qualify for “Duke” status which meant they basically ran the Lordship/Kingdom of Ireland for/instead of the King. The names of Leinster House and Kildare Street both derive directly from some of their titles (of nobility).

The CoI adopted the Saint Patrick’s Cross well after the act of union - and in the case of NI, it is used in a deliberate attempt to depoliticise. Lastly, the head of the CoI is Christ (ref CoI constitution, art IV). :-)

CelticRambler

Strazdas wrote: »

they don't want a separate identity, they want to be considered as British only.

And yet, on the 12th July every year, they make a great song and dance over a tradition that links them directly to a Dutchman who inherited his title from a principality in France, established as an outpost of the Holy Roman Empire. :rolleyes:

Then again, seeing as the Prince of Orange refused to give up the title, even after he'd been forced to give up the land, I suppose it sort of makes sense.

FrancieBrady

Strazdas wrote: »

I believe NI unionists much prefer the Union Jack in fact as their flag of choice - allegiance to an NI flag would suggest a separate identity and they don't want a separate identity, they want to be considered as British only.

So the red hand flag is not really popular with anyone in the province.

The red hand flag with the crown was the flag of the NI Government and ceased having any official recognition when that government was abolished in the early 70's.

yagan

FrancieBrady wrote: »

The red hand flag with the crown was the flag of the NI Government and ceased having any official recognition when that government was abolished in the early 70's.

That makes sense now. thanks.

Back to the Brexit inspired Fleg move I reckon it's only going to incense moderate scots. The last time I was in Glasgow and Edinburgh I think I only saw one union jack and that was townhall buildings.

It's almost like the official denial that the union is dead. Flags are a lot cheaper than actually trying to fix the iniquities within the union.

fly_agaric

rock22 wrote: »

It seems a strange position for MM to take , prioritising BJ and the Uk over Irish and EU deaths.

I don't think this is it, even though the UK (tabloid) media may spin it like that ("allying" with the UK + going to bat for them).
Listened to the segment of that RTE radio interview posted (when it was discussed before) and he sounded deeply shocked and badly frightened by very idea of EU countries daring to challenge an MNC in this way.

MNCs are always to be flattered, grovelled to and stroked so they continue to dispense jobs and investments for you. That's what Irish govt.'s do. You never go against them like this.

MM is very limited IMO + we are quite unlucky to have him in charge at this difficult time of Covid and post Brexit "issues" with the UK facing us.

BonnieSituation

ancapailldorcha wrote: »

I'm not so sure.

You being unsure or not is neither here nor there.

It is the case that it remains as part of the Union Flag as part of Ireland is still within the UK.

NI's flag is a St. George's cross with a red hand of Ulster superimposed on its centre.

It's a red hand on a 6-pointed star imposed upon a George's Cross (red on white) capped by an Imperial Crown. It takes its design from the Coat of Arms of Northern Ireland which were designed in the 1920s after partition.
It's design comes is inspired by the Ulster flag which has a red hand on a shield on a De Burgh Cross (red on yellow).

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coat_of_arms_of_Northern_Ireland

This flag, the Ulster Banner, has had no official status since the 70s. The only official flag in NI is the Union Flag. The UB is used for the soccer team and for the Commonwealth Games and for other triumphalist reasons when the UJ, OO and the plethora of other flags that Loyalists love just aren't enough.

I doubt anyone in the 1920's was going to make a new flag just a few years after the disaster that was the First World War.

Not sure why you doubt the facts as they are. Partition prompted the requirement for new symbols of two new entities.

Regardless of your opinion on the partition issues, the coat of arms is a rather great example of heraldic symbolism, even if the entity it represented was loathsome.

Strazdas

yagan wrote: »

That makes sense now. thanks.

Back to the Brexit inspired Fleg move I reckon it's only going to incense moderate scots. The last time I was in Glasgow and Edinburgh I think I only saw one union jack and that was townhall buildings.

It's almost like the official denial that the union is dead. Flags are a lot cheaper than actually trying to fix the iniquities within the union.

The problem with the flag issue is that it will go down a treat with English Brexiteers but nowhere near as well with the three Celtic nations. This is a big problem with the current Tory / Brexiteer government. It is effectively an English nationalist government aimed at pleasing English nationalists (but cannot admit any of this publicly of course).

BonnieSituation

Strazdas wrote: »

I believe NI unionists much prefer the Union Jack in fact as their flag of choice - allegiance to an NI flag would suggest a separate identity and they don't want a separate identity, they want to be considered as British only.

So the red hand flag is not really popular with anyone in the province.

That's just not true.

BonnieSituation

Strazdas wrote: »

I'm pretty sure this doesn't happen in Ireland. The only places to fly the flag are the Dáil and Government buildings (Taoiseach's office). Other ministries /departments don't fly it and you wouldn't even be aware they were government places when you pass them in the street.

There seems to be a definite attempt by the Brexit Govt to link the Tory Party with 'British nationalism'. If you are a nationalist or a patriot, then the Tories are the only party for you.....everyone other party is deemed as somewhat impure and perhaps even as anti-British (it's actually a clever strategy and one used by most authoritarian regimes).

That's not true.

Public buildings (courts, council offices etc) here fly the Tricolour and the European flag.

Just within my journey today from the CC to my apartment straight off the top of my head the Civic Offices, City Hall, Criminal Courts of Justice all have them flying outside or atop themselves.

BonnieSituation

fly_agaric wrote: »

I don't think this is it, even though the UK (tabloid) media may spin it like that ("allying" with the UK + going to bat for them).
Listened to the segment of that RTE radio interview posted (when it was discussed before) and he sounded deeply shocked and badly frightened by very idea of EU countries daring to challenge an MNC in this way.

MNCs are always to be flattered, grovelled to and stroked so they continue to dispense jobs and investments for you. That's what Irish govt.'s do. You never go against them like this.

MM is very limited IMO + we are quite unlucky to have him in charge at this difficult time of Covid and post Brexit "issues" with the UK facing us.

That's putting it lightly.

His inability to come down on one side or the other AT ANY TIME is frustrating as hell.

fly_agaric

BonnieSituation wrote: »

That's putting it lightly.

His inability to come down on one side or the other AT ANY TIME is frustrating as hell.

I'll avoid flinging insults, so "limited" is as far as I'll go (on a public forum)!
It's not what you'd wish for during a once in a century plague, and what is looking like a stormy period of relations with the UK kicking off again.
Trying to be more optimistic, when you look about at some other countries it could be worse.

Detritus70

Strazdas wrote: »

The problem with the flag issue is that it will go down a treat with English Brexiteers but nowhere near as well with the three Celtic nations. This is a big problem with the current Tory / Brexiteer government. It is effectively an English nationalist government aimed at pleasing English nationalists (but cannot admit any of this publicly of course).

The utter tone-deafness of the Brexiteers will be an advantage for the Celtic Nations.
They will simply assume that cranking up the Brexit propaganda machine and spewing the same old lazy sh*te that won over the DM brigade will be enough.
It will never occur to them that this won't go over well outside of England. They will think that their English superiority will be enough to get anyone else to tug the forelock to them.
It's sad to see England falling back to attitudes that were outdated and out of touch in the 20th century, nevermind the 21st.

Strazdas

Detritus70 wrote: »

The utter tone-deafness of the Brexiteers will be an advantage for the Celtic Nations.
They will simply assume that cranking up the Brexit propaganda machine and spewing the same old lazy sh*te that won over the DM brigade will be enough.
It will never occur to them that this won't go over well outside of England. They will think that their English superiority will be enough to get anyone else to tug the forelock to them.
It's sad to see England falling back to attitudes that were outdated and out of touch in the 20th century, nevermind the 21st.

It could be argued that Brexit is incompatible with the existence of the UK. It was largely about "making England sovereign again". The way Scotland was just dismissed and their No vote ignored by every Brexiteer as being of no consequence is revealing.

J Mysterio

Strazdas wrote: »

It could be argued that Brexit is incompatible with the existence of the UK. It was largely about "making England sovereign again". The way Scotland was just dismissed and their No vote ignored by every Brexiteer as being of no consequence is revealing.

Equally revealing is how so many have been foaming at the mouth on Sturgeon, yet 11 UK cabinet ministers incl. PM have committed offences deemed resign worthy, and they get the pass.

No insults please.

Peregrinus

BonnieSituation wrote: »

That's not true.

Public buildings (courts, council offices etc) here fly the Tricolour and the European flag.

Just within my journey today from the CC to my apartment straight off the top of my head the Civic Offices, City Hall, Criminal Courts of Justice all have them flying outside or atop themselves.

They may or may not.

For example, the Tricolour and the EU Flag are flown at the Fourt Courts, but not at the District Family Court across the river in Dolphin House. They're flown at the Criminal Court buildings in Parkgate St, but not at the Children's Court in Smithfield. They're flown (I think) at Garda Headquarters in the Phoenix Park, but not at most Garda stations.

In general, major buildings and headquarters buildings fly the flag, but other public/state buildings do not.

CelticRambler

Hmm. I wouldn't be holding out too much hope for the up-and-coming generation of English voters to correct the error of their elders' ways. On
a totally non-political thread, it was suggested to a first-time voter that he use Brexit as a source of inspiration for his creative writing. His answer?

Brexit hasn't affected a lot. All that seems boring to me, and I'd hate it even more to write about it

When given a list of what Brexit has affected in respect of his chosen career, his response:

Yeah, the idiots voted for Brexit and they pretty much make up most of the UK and everyone has to deal with it. Not me just me personally. Those outside the EU have the same regulations and they’re definitely not considered outcasts. Again, I am not interested in writing about Brexit. Full stop. You can if you want. I certainly will not. Many of those things were literally the same before in all honesty.

Reading that, I was reminded of a conversation I had some ten years ago with a Czech father, who described his despair at hearing is own young-adult son talk about how things were so much better under the Soviet regime - even though the lad hadn't even been born at the time.

And, by sheer coincidence, one of my older voter (anti-Brexit) British friends told me last night that she's making plans to emigrate to Australia next year, taking advantage of the fact that her qualifications are on the "desperately needed" list for Oz.

I reckon at least some in the shadows of the Tory party are counting on a slow exodus of those who can see what's happening, leaving an increasing proportion of the "hard of thinking" to be manipulated and exploited.

The Raging Bile Duct

CelticRambler wrote: »

I reckon at least some in the shadows of the Tory party are counting on a slow exodus of those who can see what's happening, leaving an increasing proportion of the "hard of thinking" to be manipulated and exploited.

What benefit is it to them to have a brain drain like that? It might be easy to manipulate a dense population but if there's nobody with smarts left to drive on the economy, they're snookered.

Professor Moriarty

The Raging Bile Duct wrote: »

What benefit is it to them to have a brain drain like that? It might be easy to manipulate a dense population but if there's nobody with smarts left to drive on the economy, they're snookered.

I think they've had enough of experts.

roosterman71

I was well impressed with Biden calling the UK "the Brits" yesterday when he was talking about how is great grandfather (might be missing a great there) left Ireland. He does seem to have some anti UK blood in him. That's pretty strange to be so open about it though.

In this thread I've seen a lot of talk of soft power, and Ireland using it's diplomats to the betterment of the country in relation to Brexit. This cartoon showed it brilliantly

##Mod Snip##

No Memes please.