Brexit discussion thread XIV (Please read OP before posting)

looksee

looksee wrote: »

The reason so many things have to be made with the costs kept down is because they are made to be disposable. Perhaps 2k would not be an unreasonable price for an iphone (given they are already half that) or pro rata for other electronics if they were adaptable to new (for example) operating systems and repairable. If you could expect to get 10 years out of a piece of equipment/iphone you would be prepared to pay more for it.

Maybe this is a direction the UK could look at, though the vested interests in marketing, software production etc would be very resistant to it, including retraining consumers to be happy with an item that would last long.

Yes, the infamous planned & forced obsolescence that too many manufacturers employ to artificially inflate trade, buy cheap buy twice still rings true.
With the so called "green revolution" being touted by so many in power, this is an area that can be tackled head on.

Most products on the market can easily be made to last for far longer if better designed and the right materials chosen and the deliberate life limiting "countdown to death" elements outlawed. I hope the UK can pursue this strategy.

There is a vast amount of mass produced products that can be produced in large production facilities that can server the region, there is no need to have production centralised to the extent that globalists love.

With products that have a high degree of specialisation in their manufacture, then it makes sense to only produce in a small number of facilities. Specialist semiconductors for example, would fit into that category. Domestic appliances do not.

Nody

Nody wrote: »

Well that's the cost of production; sales price would be at least double if not more so you'd take 4k+ for the consumer. I don't know anyone who'd spend 4k on a phone even if it lasts a decade; esp. as the newer phones would get new features etc. That aside iPhones are actually being designed to not be repairable by anyone but Apple as well; the latest models are set up that if anyone but Apple replaces certain parts the phone will refuse to start.

The problem with foreign import is actually very simple; it's the consumers. Simply look at how Walmart was rolled out in the states ensuring local mom & pops stores were closed by the handful in every location they popped up as Walmart worked as a one stop shop for everything. The consumers bemoaned the deaths of their city centers etc. but happily went off to Walmart to do all the shopping they needed. If consumers want that to change then consumers have to change their behavior; everything else is honestly simply talking effects and trying to catch smoke. If the consumers actively accepted and paid more for less by going local over imported the problem would quickly start to go away; but that would mean consumers actually would do something but moan about a problem and well, we know which one is more likely. Here's an example of this btw from the USA:


Sure you can have more local stuff but it comes at a cost (literally!) as well as lowering standards/spending money what ever you want to call it accordingly as well and good luck selling that one in to voters.

Consumers are people as well, they have been sold on the idea that cheaper and disposable is better by vested interests. If they were told that local, durable and sustainable was better for them and the environment to the same level of advertising/indoctrination then the trends would shift. More so if they or family members get a job doing do.

listermint

[Deleted User] wrote: »

Yes, the infamous planned & forced obsolescence that too many manufacturers employ to artificially inflate trade, buy cheap buy twice still rings true.
With the so called "green revolution" being touted by so many in power, this is an area that can be tackled head on.

Most products on the market can easily be made to last for far longer if better designed and the right materials chosen and the deliberate life limiting "countdown to death" elements outlawed. I hope the UK can pursue this strategy.

There is a vast amount of mass produced products that can be produced in large production facilities that can server the region, there is no need to have production centralised to the extent that globalists love.

With products that have a high degree of specialisation in their manufacture, then it makes sense to only produce in a small number of facilities. Specialist semiconductors for example, would fit into that category. Domestic appliances do not.

Hopes the UK can pursue this strategy. Told the EU have pursued this strategy gives no kudos to the EU.

#standardfare

listermint

[Deleted User] wrote: »

Consumers are people as well, they have been sold on the idea that cheaper and disposable is better by vested interests. If they were told that local, durable and sustainable was better for them and the environment to the same level of advertising/indoctrination then the trends would shift. More so if they or family members get a job doing do.

People have been told that for decades.

To be honest.. I think you don't really understand the nature of price on the human psychi, especially in large swathes of impoverished parts of the UK.

All pie in the sky stuff

ancapailldorcha

Deleted User wrote: »

Consumers are people as well, they have been sold on the idea that cheaper and disposable is better by vested interests. If they were told that local, durable and sustainable was better for them and the environment to the same level of advertising/indoctrination then the trends would shift. More so if they or family members get a job doing do.

You're ignoring technological change. Newer software and technology are being developed and released at a much higher rate than before. I tend to keep electronic devices until they fail but I often find myself losing access to certain things because of software updates and new features I can't use with them.

It's not all vested interests but this is where sound regulation can play a vital role. In a Brexit context, it looks like the UK will regress rather than progress.

Nody

Deleted User wrote: »

Consumers are people as well, they have been sold on the idea that cheaper and disposable is better by vested interests. If they were told that local, durable and sustainable was better for them and the environment to the same level of advertising/indoctrination then the trends would shift. More so if they or family members get a job doing do.

They have been told that for decades and it has not changed; heck look at Brexit were the automobile plant workers (and many other factories as well) voted for Brexit after their own leadership team and unions told them this will not be good for you.

Let's be honest here; people are stupid and short sighted and are biologically wired accordingly as well. They are not going to start "buying local" because of an ad campaign; if that was the case all the previous ad campaigns to do so would have done wonders. They are not going to start buying local after leaving university were the courses are consistently being dumbed down and simplified to be approachable for the current youth (it did not help us; the current courses are even worse with even more dross). Hence all your talk is hot air but it has as much effect to cause change as well.

No, what is required and what governments should be pursuing instead is rent economy. Why should every single household buy a lawnmower or a hedge trimmer if they can simply rent it for the couple of hours they need? And if they are renting it the firm renting them out has an inbuilt reason to want to make sure they can sustain and maintain the equipment for as long as possible to make it cheaper. But it would also require the right to set up cameras monitoring the cabinets were they are rented out from etc. to enable it. They need to set standards for smaller companies to produce locally at a farm to sell directly to consumers etc. But that's once again only going to change if the consumers want it to change...

PeadarCo

[Deleted User] wrote: »

Yes, the infamous planned & forced obsolescence that too many manufacturers employ to artificially inflate trade, buy cheap buy twice still rings true.
With the so called "green revolution" being touted by so many in power, this is an area that can be tackled head on.

Most products on the market can easily be made to last for far longer if better designed and the right materials chosen and the deliberate life limiting "countdown to death" elements outlawed. I hope the UK can pursue this strategy.

There is a vast amount of mass produced products that can be produced in large production facilities that can server the region, there is no need to have production centralised to the extent that globalists love.

With products that have a high degree of specialisation in their manufacture, then it makes sense to only produce in a small number of facilities. Specialist semiconductors for example, would fit into that category. Domestic appliances do not.

I don't think you understand the economics of production very well and why companies opt of centralised production centres and hint its nothing to do with "globalists"/what ever trendy scapegoat you can think of.

In principle you can establish a production centre anywhere however every location has different costs. All these costs ultimately are passed onto consumers. Take for example your basic labour and materials. There are certain areas of the world where labour costs more, hence labour intensive manufacturing companies base themselves in place in countries with relatively low labour costs and or low labour laws.

Materials similarly costs different amounts are costs are impacted by distance freight costs, tarrifs etc. The UK with Brexit has made materials more expensive to import due to non tarrif related costs and companies now need more working capital invested in stock as result of increased customs checks and the time delays that come with that.

Then there are overheads ie quality control, product design etc. These costs increase if you have to take account of different regulations in different markets. Again something that Brexit has made more expensive just with non tariff barriers.

And finally there is the ability for large production runs which can absorb the fixed costs of an operation over a larger number of products meaning a lower cost per product. Ie €100k/10k units=€10per unit and €100k/100kunits = €1 per unit.

All this means companies that have a small number of centralised production centres can offer consumers products at a lower cost when compared to companies with a similar product run but spread over a larger number of smaller production centres. Something which the EUs size enables.

So yes you may have companies moving manufacturing operations into the UK to sell just to UK customers. However it will cost UK customers more than if the same products had been supplied from the EU with the UK still a member. Other companies may not bother and just pass the cost onto UK or just not supply the UK market full stop. Which means UK customers will face less choice for a particular product and even for what will available the product will cost more. Something which has been warned about for a number of years. And what I am saying here is from a long term perspective. As other posters have mentioned you can't just move production overnight. So in the short term it's even worse for the UK.

ancapailldorcha

Mod: Please take discussion of Covid vaccines to the Coronavirus forum. A post has been removed.

L1011

Nody wrote: »

Here's an example of this btw from the USA:

I believe the equivalent here would be more stark, due to how restrictive our trading was prior to joining the EEC; and also how rapacious the profit-taking in food retail was particularly in the 90s and early 00s.

Akrasia

looksee wrote: »

The reason so many things have to be made with the costs kept down is because they are made to be disposable. Perhaps 2k would not be an unreasonable price for an iphone (given they are already half that) or pro rata for other electronics if they were adaptable to new (for example) operating systems and repairable. If you could expect to get 10 years out of a piece of equipment/iphone you would be prepared to pay more for it.

Maybe this is a direction the UK could look at, though the vested interests in marketing, software production etc would be very resistant to it, including retraining consumers to be happy with an item that would last long.

The only way this is going to realistically happen, is if there are taxation and regulation measures put in place to force manufacturers to manufacture goods in this way
The UK cannot do this on their own, the EU are in a better position and have already been doing this via things like the WEE, regulations on end of live vehicles, the Euro NCAP safety tests, regulations on excessively wasteful power consumption (eg: forcing vacuum cleaners to stop producing high energy consumption models because consumers believe that the higher power = better performance)

AS EU citizens, our role is to elect representatives who will push to increase standards and improve regulations over industry to force them to act responsibly (cause they won't do it on their own)

It might be easier to get this done now that the UK are out of the EU given that the tories were always hostile to these kinds of regulations on industry, and then the UK will be effectively forced to accept the new rules without any say in drafting them

a_squirrelman

Akrasia wrote: »

I ordered a book from the book depository 3 weeks ago, it came today

I ordered a guitar from Slovakia 3 weeks ago, it got to Hungary got turned around and sent back to Slovakia because the courier didn't feel like going through the landbridge, It's only now that they've been able to figure out a new route that avoids the UK entirely and have shipped it again

These delays and costs are causing pretty much every EU distributor to redesign any logistics that would have had any route through the UK to find alternatives that completely exclude any business with the UK

It's not just trade directly with the UK that is being affected, it is any kind of trade that used any UK links along the supply chain that are being affected.

Once they're gone, the UK companies will find it very very difficult to get that business back, so what is their plan to replace that income with something new?

They can either try to increase their income, or reduce their costs, and those cost will be reduced domestically, further deflating the UK economy. It snowballs very quickly.

Hi Akrasia, did you get stung with any fees for The Book Depository order?
I've been wanting to order something from there but keep pushing it back for fear of some customs fees.
The book is about €30.

Akrasia

a_squirrelman wrote: »

Hi Akrasia, did you get stung with any fees for The Book Depository order?
I've been wanting to order something from there but keep pushing it back for fear of some customs fees.
The book is about €30.

No extra fees, just popped in the letterbox, but the book only cost about €10

sondagefaux

Amazon is opening a full-blown fulfilment centre in Ireland. Goodbye Amazon.co.uk for Irish customers!

https://reactnews.com/article/amazon-commits-to-600000-sq-ft-for-first-irish-fulfilment-centre/

eire4

sondagefaux wrote: »

Amazon is opening a full-blown fulfilment centre in Ireland. Goodbye Amazon.co.uk for Irish customers!

https://reactnews.com/article/amazon-commits-to-600000-sq-ft-for-first-irish-fulfilment-centre/

Not a surprise to see that. Brexit made that happening a certainty IMHO.

Geuze

sondagefaux wrote: »

Amazon is opening a full-blown fulfilment centre in Ireland. Goodbye Amazon.co.uk for Irish customers!

https://reactnews.com/article/amazon-commits-to-600000-sq-ft-for-first-irish-fulfilment-centre/

Is this separate from the "delivery logistics centre" at Greenogue Business Park in Rathcoole?

https://www.independent.ie/business/technology/amazon-offers-one-day-delivery-as-irish-retailers-fight-for-a-share-of-online-trade-on-green-friday-39736133.html

Seth Brundle

The indo article mentions that the place in Rathcoole is 6500 sq metres.
sondagefaux's article refers to 600,000 sq ft = 56,000m2 whihc is quite larger.

BonnieSituation

Enzokk wrote: »

Apparently they are not,

Review of UK workers' rights post-Brexit is axed in sudden U-turn



So for the moment they will not water down workers rights. I have to wonder though, why would you not agree with the EU standard of rights if it means less friction if you are going to have higher standards? It just make absolutely no sense that this is the line they are taking.

None of Brexit makes sense from the outsiders' POV. It's absolute madness.

Capt'n Midnight

Brexit will be a death by 1,000 cuts. Or at least some measure of discomfort by 1,000 cuts.

Interesting. Mondelez may be on the lookout for another border to exploit. Even if the UK regulators match this it's not a Brexit bonus, just what UK consumers would have gotten anyway if Brexit hadn't hapened. If they don't match it's another small Brexit cost.

EU opens competition investigation into Cadbury owner

The European Commission is concerned that Mondelez restricted trade across borders between EU countries, pushing up prices for its products.

listermint

sondagefaux wrote: »

Amazon is opening a full-blown fulfilment centre in Ireland. Goodbye Amazon.co.uk for Irish customers!

https://reactnews.com/article/amazon-commits-to-600000-sq-ft-for-first-irish-fulfilment-centre/

Anyone read the full article? Bit of an odd source tbh..its not coming up from any other sources.

CelticRambler

Deleted User wrote: »

The main point that is in favour of localisation is quite simply the point that you're paying people a wage and not the dole and you're retaining skills that would otherwise be lost( already lost) you are not dependent on the whims of the leadership in foreign countries that could at some point in the future decide to stop or restrict trade to squeeze concessions from you.

However valid your argument might be based on theoretical models, there's one serious flaw: British people just won't do the work. That's not a racist taunt - it's the reality faced by hundreds of fruit and veg growers across Britain, and meat processors, and the health service, and several other sectors. Up until the Brexit referendum, there was a thriving industry in recruiting EU migrants to fill jobs in GB because even with the UK's generous minimum wage there was no enthusiasm amongst British workers to do the work. Those who turned up for Day 1 rarely came back for Day 2.

Now you're proposing that Britain "relearns" manufacturing - but (a) modern high-value manufacturing is largely carried out by automated plants, so no significant employment advantage there; and (b) cheap, mass-produced goods are generally assembled by people working for 50ct an hour, not 10-15€ an hour.

Of course, what you could do would be build high-value components for integration into other devices and equipment. Things like aircraft wings or engine parts or semi-conductors. Great ... as long as you can export them to the countries that might use them, unless you start building factories that assemble the whole machine; and now you're back to the self-sufficiency vs. overall efficiency equation again.

And on that point, you don't have to go looking in foreign countries for the whims of leadership that will put the squeeze on trade - there's a Great Bunch of Lads in Westminster who have quite gleefully done that for Cornish fishermen and Welsh farmers and Scottish seed potato merchants ...

sondagefaux

Geuze wrote: »

Is this separate from the "delivery logistics centre" at Greenogue Business Park in Rathcoole?

https://www.independent.ie/business/technology/amazon-offers-one-day-delivery-as-irish-retailers-fight-for-a-share-of-online-trade-on-green-friday-39736133.html

According to the React journalist, an Amazon fulfilment centre is different to an Amazon 'last mile' delivery centre.

As far as I can tell, the difference is that stock is held in fulfilment centres, whereas the delivery centres just handle the final part of the delivery process.

So if you order from an Irish fulfilment centre, the stock is already in Ireland and any import formalities and costs have been dealt with.

Whereas a delivery centre just handles orders that have arrived in Ireland from wherever and the buyer may still have to pay extra charges before delivery or return the order.

sondagefaux

listermint wrote: »

Anyone read the full article? Bit of an odd source tbh..its not coming up from any other sources.

It's a magazine for commercial property professionals.

The link was retweeted by the Belfast Newsletter's business correspondent.

sondagefaux

Deleted User wrote: »

The main point that is in favour of localisation is quite simply the point that you're paying people a wage and not the dole and you're retaining skills that would otherwise be lost( already lost) you are not dependent on the whims of the leadership in foreign countries that could at some point in the future decide to stop or restrict trade to squeeze concessions from you.


Plus of course the environmental impact of importing stuff from far away places that have scant regards to their local environments and the welfare of their workers.

We tried this in Ireland before. During that time Ireland's main exports were live cattle and badly educated people, mostly to Britain.

Capt'n Midnight

Just in case anyone was wondering how that whole Empire 2.0 is going.

54 African have signed up to a Free Trade Agreement.

https://www.un.org/africarenewal/magazine/january-2021/afcfta-africa-now-open-business

The new market, created under the African Continental Free Trade Area (AfCFTA) agreement is estimated to be as large as 1.3 billion people across Africa, with a combined gross domestic product (GDP) of $3.4 trillion.

sondagefaux

PeadarCo wrote: »

I don't think you understand the economics of production very well and why companies opt of centralised production centres and hint its nothing to do with "globalists"/what ever trendy scapegoat you can think of.

In principle you can establish a production centre anywhere however every location has different costs. All these costs ultimately are passed onto consumers. Take for example your basic labour and materials. There are certain areas of the world where labour costs more, hence labour intensive manufacturing companies base themselves in place in countries with relatively low labour costs and or low labour laws.

Materials similarly costs different amounts are costs are impacted by distance freight costs, tarrifs etc. The UK with Brexit has made materials more expensive to import due to non tarrif related costs and companies now need more working capital invested in stock as result of increased customs checks and the time delays that come with that.

Then there are overheads ie quality control, product design etc. These costs increase if you have to take account of different regulations in different markets. Again something that Brexit has made more expensive just with non tariff barriers.

And finally there is the ability for large production runs which can absorb the fixed costs of an operation over a larger number of products meaning a lower cost per product. Ie €100k/10k units=€10per unit and €100k/100kunits = €1 per unit.

All this means companies that have a small number of centralised production centres can offer consumers products at a lower cost when compared to companies with a similar product run but spread over a larger number of smaller production centres. Something which the EUs size enables.

So yes you may have companies moving manufacturing operations into the UK to sell just to UK customers. However it will cost UK customers more than if the same products had been supplied from the EU with the UK still a member. Other companies may not bother and just pass the cost onto UK or just not supply the UK market full stop. Which means UK customers will face less choice for a particular product and even for what will available the product will cost more. Something which has been warned about for a number of years. And what I am saying here is from a long term perspective. As other posters have mentioned you can't just move production overnight. So in the short term it's even worse for the UK.

Consumer prices and selection are worse in Switzerland compared to neighbouring EU states.

The basket of products that cost 168 francs in Switzerland are 107 euros in Germany, 109 euros in France. and 111 euros in Austria; at 98 euros, Italy is slightly under the European average.

https://www.thelocal.ch/20191230/yes-most-consumer-goods-are-pricier-in-switzerland-than-in-the-eu

At today's exchange rate, 168 Swiss Francs is equal to €155.96.

So the Swiss prices were between €44.96 and €57.96 dearer than their immediate EU neighbours.

Switzerland is effectively in the Single Market for goods but not in a customs union with the EU.

Any argument against globalisation which ignores the fact that it has massively improved the living standards of hundreds of millions of people across the world, in Asia, South America and eastern and central Europe isn't really credible.

It creates huge problems for the enivironment and workers rights? Yes, in many places and for many people.

But are they worse than the huge environmental problems and the lack of workers rights and disregard for their welfare that were and are characteristic of the autarchic communist states and authoritarian capitalist states?

I would say not only are they not, but there are clearly visible improvements in the environment and conditions for workers in the ex-communist states of Europe, especially those that have joined the EU.

The free trade agreement between the EU and South Korea contains clauses on labour rights which are now being used to compel South Korea to improve workers rights and ratify International Labour Organisation conventions, both clear outcomes of South Korea's increased integration into the globalised world and its turn away from authoritarian government, which are linked phenomena.

peter kern

sondagefaux wrote: »

Consumer prices and selection are worse in Switzerland compared to neighbouring EU states.



https://www.thelocal.ch/20191230/yes-most-consumer-goods-are-pricier-in-switzerland-than-in-the-eu

At today's exchange rate, 168 Swiss Francs is equal to €155.96.

So the Swiss prices were between €44.96 and €57.96 dearer than their immediate EU neighbours.

Switzerland is effectively in the Single Market for goods but not in a customs union with the EU.

Any argument against globalisation which ignores the fact that it has massively improved the living standards of hundreds of millions of people across the world, in Asia, South America and eastern and central Europe isn't really credible.

It creates huge problems for the enivironment and workers rights? Yes, in many places and for many people.

But are they worse than the huge environmental problems and the lack of workers rights and disregard for their welfare that were and are characteristic of the autarchic communist states and authoritarian capitalist states?

I would say not only are they not, but there are clearly visible improvements in the environment and conditions for workers in the ex-communist states of Europe, especially those that have joined the EU.

The free trade agreement between the EU and South Korea contains clauses on labour rights which are now being used to compel South Korea to improve workers rights and ratify International Labour Organisation conventions, both clear outcomes of South Korea's increased integration into the globalised world and its turn away from authoritarian government, which are linked phenomena.

at the same time the min salary in geneva is now 22 euro per hour .
and the swiss farmer gets 52 cents per litre of milk and the german farmer gets 28 cents. so the high prices elevate the whole society.
the living standard in switzerland is higher than in germany so i dont think switzerland proves anything apart form the fact that you can have a working home agriculture that has really high prices and at least until 7 years ago most swiss where happy to pay for it .

listermint

sondagefaux wrote: »

It's a magazine for commercial property professionals.

The link was retweeted by the Belfast Newsletter's business correspondent.

Irish times have picked up on this now. Articles is accessible.

Appears fulfillment centre. Amazon.ie coming maybe?
https://www.irishtimes.com/business/retail-and-services/irish-amazon-customers-to-bypass-brexit-barriers-as-it-plans-local-fulfilment-centre-1.4470470

strandroad

"It already operates a delivery warehouse in Rathcoole for Amazon Prime customers, which opened last year. But the Baldonnell deal would be its first proper order fulfilment centre where products are picked and packaged by Amazon staff."

An Ciarraioch

65% of British lorries crossing the Channel are empty:

https://www.itv.com/news/2021-01-28/majority-of-lorries-crossing-channel-to-france-are-empty-as-brexit-hits-trade

listermint

strandroad wrote: »

"It already operates a delivery warehouse in Rathcoole for Amazon Prime customers, which opened last year. But the Baldonnell deal would be its first proper order fulfilment centre where products are picked and packaged by Amazon staff."

If that doesn't demonstrate the value and strength of the Irish market . And within weeks of brexit. Then I don't know what does.