Brexit discussion thread XIV (Please read OP before posting)

Winters

Akrasia wrote: »

One thing that is going away, are the voters who voted for Brexit, a lot of them have already died. What is important for the UK now, is how the youngest generations attitudes are molded in the coming years. Young people tend to be more progressive but there is an undercurrent of conspiracy theorizing and they are very vulnerable to being manipulated by social media

The thing with young people is though, they get older and more conservative.

Lumen

Lumen wrote: »

There are reasons to be optimistic.

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2021/mar/31/pimlico-academy-pupils-stage-protest-over-discriminatory-policies

England getting its underwear in a twist over flags is somewhat refreshing.

Demanding the removal of the national flag from the school, I'd like then to try that in the US or even here, or in any other country for that matter!
BTW: according to the article that demand has now been dropped.

VinLieger

Lumen wrote: »

There are reasons to be optimistic.

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2021/mar/31/pimlico-academy-pupils-stage-protest-over-discriminatory-policies

England getting its underwear in a twist over flags is somewhat refreshing.

Why do you think the tories want to ban protesting? Their core voter base is dying and they have no appeal to younger demographics

Jizique

VinLieger wrote: »

Why do you think the tories want to ban protesting? Their core voter base is dying and they have no appeal to younger demographics

https://www.ft.com/content/2344aab7-d64c-4bc4-8e68-45f8015a3dd9
Martin in the FT calling on a “reset” of relations between the EU and the U.K.; he is shocking, only calling the decision to suspend customs checks “silly”

The Raging Bile Duct

Jizique wrote: »

https://www.ft.com/content/2344aab7-d64c-4bc4-8e68-45f8015a3dd9
Martin in the FT calling on a “reset” of relations between the EU and the U.K.; he is shocking”

Tbf, he's calling on Britain to reset its relationship with the EU.

Martin believes that while trust has been eroded, there is enough left to uphold the agreement. “I think it makes sense for Britain that it really works on its relationship with the EU,” he said. “The EU is ready to engage.”

Nody

Another fun consequence of Brexit just popped up on my radar:
https://twitter.com/RHADuncanB/status/1374379406223761412
Between drivers forgetting/not getting stamped "out" and the limited pick up opportunities this one will probably kick in come end of April/beginning of May I'd imagine and cause (yet more) disruption for UK haulage companies esp. if some of their drivers fancy a two week vacation in one of the party islands etc.

CelticRambler

Nody wrote: »

Between drivers forgetting/not getting stamped "out" and the limited pick up opportunities this one will probably kick in come end of April/beginning of May I'd imagine and cause (yet more) disruption for UK haulage companies esp. if some of their drivers fancy a two week vacation in one of the party islands etc.

It's this kind of thing that'll creep up on people and catch them out at a most inconvenient time. And never mind the party-island vacation - it'll be that weekend four months ago when you went to a UEFA cup match in Gdansk or a Six Nations match in Paris that'll play havoc with hauliers' rotas and leave loads sitting at a port waiting for a replacement driver.

In the week when MPs are revolting against the idea of "vaccine passports" (= id cards by stealth? :rolleyes: ) are we going to see a situation where, if your job involves foreign travel of any kind, you have to tell your employer where you've been in your spare time?

BlitzKrieg

UK continues to be the one blinking at the last second https://www.theguardian.com/science/2021/apr/01/uk-pledges-extra-250m-for-hi-tech-research-collaboration-with-eu

Government pays its dues to continue to be part of Horizon. Good thing all around, but continues to be a reminder that the "350 million" on the side of the bus actually went to pay for things the UK wanted and still wants and they'll end up paying for most of it regardless of their EU membership.

Just now with all the added cost on top of the brexit red tape.

CelticRambler

You pays your money, you ... don't get all the benefits. From a related article:

Under the UK’s trade and security deal with its former partners, the government retained the right to pay into and participate in the EU’s Horizon Europe research programme, a seven-year, €95.5bn (£82bn) funding scheme. But the commission has now decided to curtail the type of projects in which the UK will be able to take part under a draft proposal discussed with the member states on Friday.

The new eligibility rules proposed by the commission include restrictions on work on a range of sensitive areas such as quantum computers, described in the commission’s draft text for its Horizon research funding scheme as an “emerging technology of global strategic importance”.

“In order to achieve the expected outcomes, and safeguard the Union’s strategic assets, interests, autonomy, or security, namely, participation is limited to legal entities established in member states, Norway, Iceland, Liechtenstein. Proposals including entities established in countries outside this scope will be ineligible,” the draft says.

The price of being a divergent sovereign nation.

Terence Rattigan

Brexit - The very definition of death by a thousand cuts

Strazdas

Lumen wrote: »

There are reasons to be optimistic.

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2021/mar/31/pimlico-academy-pupils-stage-protest-over-discriminatory-policies

England getting its underwear in a twist over flags is somewhat refreshing.

Something that strikes me is that Brexit could seriously set back race relations in the UK and undo much of the good work that been achieved previously. It's a white English nationalist movement and they are now the ones in power and running the country (and that's the vast bulk of their voting base too).

View

Nody wrote: »

Another fun consequence of Brexit just popped up on my radar:
https://twitter.com/RHADuncanB/status/1374379406223761412
Between drivers forgetting/not getting stamped "out" and the limited pick up opportunities this one will probably kick in come end of April/beginning of May I'd imagine and cause (yet more) disruption for UK haulage companies esp. if some of their drivers fancy a two week vacation in one of the party islands etc.

Who is “stamping in” and “stamping out” drivers from NI?

View

CelticRambler wrote: »

You pays your money, you ... don't get all the benefits. From a related article:



The price of being a divergent sovereign nation.

The question now is should they be allowed to partake at all and get any benefit from the programme?

If they do, any success in which the U.K. is involved will, like the vaccine situation, be hailed as proof that Brexit is a great success and that they are much better of outside the EU. Conversely any failure will be blamed as being due to EU bureaucracy holding back U.K. brilliance.

Akrasia

View wrote: »

The question now is should they be allowed to partake at all and get any benefit from the programme?

If they do, any success in which the U.K. is involved will, like the vaccine situation, be hailed as proof that Brexit is a great success and that they are much better of outside the EU. Conversely any failure will be blamed as being due to EU bureaucracy holding back U.K. brilliance.

Yes they should be allowed to participate as associate members in projects that the EU decide they can add value to while excluding them from anything the EU decides they should not be participating in

It’s a win for the EU and while I’m sure the British tabloids will try to spin it, nobody serious would take that seriously

schmoo2k

View wrote: »

Who is “stamping in” and “stamping out” drivers from NI?

Probably happens at the Schengen border?

PeadarCo

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-britain-eu-disruption-idUSKBN2BP1KR?utm_campaign=trueAnthem%3A+Trending+Content&utm_medium=trueAnthem&utm_source=facebook


The impact of Brexit is beginning to come clear. Half of UK companies in a survey expect long-term issues as a result of Brexit and nearly a third have stopped trading with the EU or countries covered by EU trade agreements. It will be interesting to see how this impact is felt by voters and the government in general when this downturn hits peoples pockets.

View

schmoo2k wrote: »

Probably happens at the Schengen border?

The comment was:

The 90 in 180 days limit applies to lorry drivers. All UK drivers need to make sure they get passports stamped on exit from EU to "stop the clock" on days in the EU.

It refers to “days in the EU”, not “days in the Schengen zone of the EU” and it applies to “All U.K. drivers”, not “All U.K. drivers, bar those from Northern Ireland”.

The clear inference from this is that we need to be “stamping in” and “stamping out” U.K. drivers who arrive from/depart to Northern Ireland.

View

Akrasia wrote: »

Yes they should be allowed to participate as associate members in projects that the EU decide they can add value to while excluding them from anything the EU decides they should not be participating in

It’s a win for the EU and while I’m sure the British tabloids will try to spin it, nobody serious would take that seriously

On the contrary, such claims will be taken seriously.

For instance in the case of the AZ vaccine, the EU was the largest source of funding for the Oxford-based Jenner Institute, which developed the vaccine. Likewise, the EU handed over several hundred million to AZ as part of the contract with AZ.

In return for that, the Jenner/AZ vaccine is touted as the great success story “proving” the case for Brexit and AZ doesn’t bother even pretending it will deliver to EU countries, while simultaneously exporting vaccine supplies from EU countries to non-EU countries.

reslfj

schmoo2k wrote: »

Probably happens at the Schengen border?

https://www.europarl.europa.eu/resources/library/images/20200408PHT76826/20200408PHT76826_original.jpg

Your passport is checked/scanned at every entry and exit to/from the Schengen area. This includes leaving for or returning from the CTA (Ireland + UK).

UK passports and Schengen passports have biometric info including picture and fingerprints of two fingers.

Note: in many/most EU26 countries you must carry an ID card/passport.

Lars

redcup342

reslfj wrote: »

Your passport is checked/scanned at every entry and exit to/from the Schengen area. This includes leaving for or returning from the CTA (Ireland + UK).

UK passports and Schengen passports have biometric info including picture and fingerprints of two fingers.

Note: in many/most EU26 countries you must carry an ID card/passport.

Lars

Nah, Germany stopped the fingerprint stuff a few years ago on passports, wasn’t reliable

Leroy42

View wrote: »

On the contrary, such claims will be taken seriously.

For instance in the case of the AZ vaccine, the EU was the largest source of funding for the Oxford-based Jenner Institute, which developed the vaccine. Likewise, the EU handed over several hundred million to AZ as part of the contract with AZ.

In return for that, the Jenner/AZ vaccine is touted as the great success story “proving” the case for Brexit and AZ doesn’t bother even pretending it will deliver to EU countries, while simultaneously exporting vaccine supplies from EU countries to non-EU countries.

I agree. I think a big problem throughout this whole process is that the EU believe that UK will come to its senses. That playing nice, being open and fair, will lead to better relations.

IMO they are completely deluded. The UK are out to destroy the EU. The UK know they cannot compete with a block like the EU on their doorstep.

But the EU continues to operate on the basis that they need the UK.

rogue-entity

Leroy42 wrote: »

But the EU continues to operate on the basis that they need the UK.

I do not believe that is the case, rather, the EU has broadly managed to hold the moral high ground (notwithstanding the Art. 16 faux pas) in respect to its approach to, and agreements with, the UK. The UK on the hand have shown they can neither be relied upon nor trusted in that respect.

CelticRambler wrote: »

In the week when MPs are revolting against the idea of "vaccine passports" (= id cards by stealth? :rolleyes: ) are we going to see a situation where, if your job involves foreign travel of any kind, you have to tell your employer where you've been in your spare time?

A little off-topic perhaps, but I will never understand the absolute asinine fear over 'ID Cards' demonstrated by the UK and Irish populations.

I wouldn't be entirely surprised if such a situation arises though, but this doesn't affect drivers who choose to spend their spare time over here as we're not part of Schengen and the CTA means that for the purpose of immigration law, British Citizens are treated as Irish citizens (and vice/versa).

View wrote: »

Who is “stamping in” and “stamping out” drivers from NI?

It was, and will, never be required.

View wrote: »

The comment was:

It refers to “days in the EU”, not “days in the Schengen zone of the EU” and it applies to “All U.K. drivers”, not “All U.K. drivers, bar those from Northern Ireland”.

The clear inference from this is that we need to be “stamping in” and “stamping out” U.K. drivers who arrive from/depart to Northern Ireland.

The author of that comment is (hopefully unintentionally) incorrect. Ireland and the UK remain part of the pre-EU Common Travel Area, so there is not, nor will there be, any requirement for a passport to travel between the two jurisdictions on this island; you don't need a passport to travel to Great Britain either, nor to travel from their to here (with the exception of flights).

Even while Ireland remains a member of the EU, and the UK not, that arrangement persists as we remain outside of Schengen. Perhaps that might mean haulage companies in the UK might be inclined to hire Irish drivers, as we won't face any restrictions travelling around the EU.

fash

rogue-entity wrote: »

I do not believe that is the case, rather, the EU has broadly managed to hold the moral high ground (notwithstanding the Art. 16 faux pas) in respect to its approach to, and agreements with, the UK. The UK on the hand have shown they can neither be relied upon nor trusted in that respect.

"Holding the moral high ground" hasn't actually got the EU anywhere though has it?
As regards the Art. 16 "faux pas" - the issue literally revolves around the fact that doing something legally correct and using Art. 16 for the purpose for which it was intended is considered a "faux pas" because the UK will use it as a pretext for doing something illegal (which they subsequently did). So what precisely is the point in holding the moral high ground?

CelticRambler

Leroy42 wrote: »

But the EU continues to operate on the basis that they need the UK.

fash wrote: »

"Holding the moral high ground" hasn't actually got the EU anywhere though has it?

Huh?

The EU is operating exactly as it needs to, dealing with internal and external matters across all areas in which it has the remit to act. The fact that one former member is behaving like a toddler hasn't affected the EU's relations with other third countries; and those other member states with toddler-like behaviour have largely calmed themselves down (even if it's more of a sulk than a copping on) - so I would argue that "holding the moral high ground" is a strategy that has paid dividends.

Moreover, the very fact that - in respect of Britain's contribution to and participation in the Horizon programme - the EU tells the UK how much it has to pay and what it will (or more precisely won't) get in return is the ultimate proof that the EU doesn't not need the UK in any shape or form in order for it (the EU) to continue pursue its own objectives.

hotmail.com

More and more serious rioting in the North tonight from Loyalists.

cameramonkey

hotmail.com wrote: »

More and more serious rioting in the North tonight from Loyalists.

A few skirmishes but not serious rioting. It is just the physical manifestation of Unionism via Loyalist gangsters hoping that it will sway the EU. As usual with the Unionists they have an over blown sense of their political importance.

Christy42

cameramonkey wrote: »

A few skirmishes but not serious rioting. It is just the physical manifestation of Unionism via Loyalist gangsters hoping that it will sway the EU. As usual with the Unionists they have an over blown sense of their political importance.

It isn't even headlining rte. I doubt that most of the EU has a clue it is even happening.

Sam Russell

The 'rioting' is just some juveniles running wild at the behest of sinister forces related to one of the political parties up there. Some of those arrested are 12 or 13 years old.

The RUC PSNI have to deal with this firmly and quickly.

rogue-entity

fash wrote: »

"Holding the moral high ground" hasn't actually got the EU anywhere though has it?

The EU as a collective body has been consistent, clearly pointed out the available options to the UK with respect to the future relationship, and the impact of those choices.

In sharp contrast the UK has been acting like a proverbial toddler throwing a temper tantrum because they couldn't have their cake and eat it.

The EU maintains this consistent and measured approach, and comes across as the adult in the room. Any consequences for the UK as a result of Brexit are entirely of their own making and in spite of the UK's arrogance and belligerence, the EU hasn't cut it's proverbial nose off to spite its face.

fash wrote: »

As regards the Art. 16 "faux pas" - the issue literally revolves around the fact that doing something legally correct and using Art. 16 for the purpose for which it was intended is considered a "faux pas" because the UK will use it as a pretext for doing something illegal (which they subsequently did). So what precisely is the point in holding the moral high ground?

The faux pas was acting without thinking, putting the proverbial foot in it only then to realise the error of doing that. This happened owing to the frustration the EU rightly feels w.r.t. to the situation with AstraZeneca.

It may have been legally correct, but legally correct does not always mean it is the correct course of action.

sandbelter

Actually, I think the UK's bilateral relationship with the EU is following a path first forged by Russia.

For a long time mutual contempt reined between the two as each has sought to weaken the other.

Just like the world (the EU wasn't alone in this ) underestimated Russia's ability to absorb pain over Crimea, I expect the UK to rip up the WA agreement in due course, and absorb the pain.

Over time I expect UK's border with Ireland to look a lot like Russia's current border with Finland.

Only when the UK and the EU have complete destroyed their relationship will they realize their is a pointlessness to it. The Putin, Macron and Merkel conference may prove to be a turning pint for the Russia - EU relationship. We may have to wait for a while for the same with the UK.