Brexit discussion thread XIV (Please read OP before posting)

BlitzKrieg

otnomart wrote: »

Was a bit puzzled by reading this article:
"Ireland aligned itself with the United Kingdom on most of the everyday issues that the European Union dealt with".
"An EU without the UK has become, at times, a more isolated place for Ireland."
https://www.politico.eu/article/leo-varadkar-ireland-brexit-europe-united-kingdom-ally/
Which Country(ies) do you think is Ireland's closest ally in the EU now ?

The article is kinda out of date I feel, we lost the UK as an ally in the EU around 2014 in the EU I feel.

If we are discussing closest ally in the EU you are primarily looking at 2 institutions

The Council and Parliament, and the council basically boils down to do our leaders get along which frankly the british prime ministers have been progressively less friendly from Cameron to May to Johnson.

And Parliament depended more on how the meps grouped up in european parties. And yeah the UK and Irish MEPS did for a time share the same european groups. (our right wing was in EPP with the UK tories)

But again under Cameron the conservative meps left those groupings to go form their own mep club that was a bit too far right wing for FF/FG meps and the UK suddenly found itself even more isolated.


Even without Brexit, irish uk relations in the EU have drastically cooled because the UK was already isolating itself in the EU ahead of Brexit.

Sam Russell

druss wrote: »

Not issues for EU cooperation though, it wouldn't qualify as areas where we would have relied on UK support in EU.

That is true but friends tend to have similar beliefs. That is all a long time ago.

rock22

Professor Moriarty wrote: »

If you think this Irish government's policies are Thatcherite, you don't understand Thatcherism. I look at the nasty pack of selfish and corrupt populists, led by Johnson, that have dragged the UK out of Europe and I thank my lucky stars that we have the politicians we have despite their flaws.

The Raging Bile Duct wrote: »

I'm scratching my head here. Can you point me to what parts of the FF/FG economic policy are closely aligned to Thatcherism and Reaganomics.

Without wanting to write an essay, ( and thereby hijack the thread) I will limit myself to mentioning these three areas where FF and FG have followed Thatcherism
1, light touch regulation (i.e. the small state)
2, Allow market to provide ( so reduced investment in social housing over many years )
3, Low taxation

cameramonkey

rock22 wrote: »

Without wanting to write an essay, ( and thereby hijack the thread) I will limit myself to mentioning these three areas where FF and FG have followed Thatcherism
1, light touch regulation (i.e. the small state)
2, Allow market to provide ( so reduced investment in social housing over many years )
3, Low taxation

They have also privatised many sate functions.

johnnyskeleton

rock22 wrote: »

Without wanting to write an essay, ( and thereby hijack the thread)

Mod Note:

I think if you want to discuss the above it's best to start a new thread, and keep this one to Brexit

View

otnomart wrote: »

Was a bit puzzled by reading this article:
"Ireland aligned itself with the United Kingdom on most of the everyday issues that the European Union dealt with".
"An EU without the UK has become, at times, a more isolated place for Ireland."
https://www.politico.eu/article/leo-varadkar-ireland-brexit-europe-united-kingdom-ally/
Which Country(ies) do you think is Ireland's closest ally in the EU now ?

The article is BS.

The voting records of countries in the Council of Ministers over a ten year period (2004-2014) was analysed and the two countries which were most likely to vote for “the Irish position” were France and Lithuania.

The U.K. on the other hand was extremely likely to vote against “the Irish position”. The only area there was a strong overlap was in our pre-crash hostility to banking regulation which of course backfired spectacularly on us.

The departure of the U.K. actually makes it (slightly) more likely that the Council will adopt “the Irish position” as we, together with other smaller countries, frequently hold the crucial “swing votes” when the Council makes its final decisions.

joeysoap

Might have nothing to do with Brexit

I ordered a few books from book depository last week


All arrived ok, notified in advance that they were dispatched from UK. But when they arrived, they all had an An Post ceadunnas sticker on them. I can’t recall this previously. I got the impression they were shipped in bulk to Ireland, then posted out individually.

schmoo2k

correct horse battery staple wrote: »

Fairly sure books not have import or vat taxes.

Anyways back to brexit https://www.rte.ie/news/brexit/2021/0420/1210905-brexit/

Why are journalists in Uk not asking him obvious questions why is Boris now unhappy with what he signed and proclaimed as best deal ever? Did he just read what he signed? I think this is a good example of media in UK not doing their jobs and keeping an ever authoritarian government in check

The medias job is to look after its shareholders I thought?

yagan

correct horse battery staple wrote: »

Modern democracies are a complicated system of checks and balances

We repeatedly seen how deficient UK has become when it comes to checks and balances

If their media is beholden to their government and/or shareholders then how is the country any different to other oligarchic dystopias like Russia who are located outside the European tent constantly trying set such tent on fire

Could it be that UK skips it’s “journalists who ask tough questions, falling from balconies” stage as country continues its slide to authoritarianism

The media in the USA had no problem profiting off the social divisions exploited by Trump up until the storming of the capital.

The problem with Brexit is that it's foundation is a second hand memory of global importance within an electorate that has as many voters over 55 as under. It's hard to buckle an innate sense of national superiority.

The only problem is that with Brexit voters took away the ruling class excuse for domestic failings, and at some stage the mood music will turn to "stop making excuses!"

ancapailldorcha

johnnyskeleton wrote: »

Mod Note:

I think if you want to discuss the above it's best to start a new thread, and keep this one to Brexit

A post has been deleted.

The Raging Bile Duct

yagan wrote: »

The only problem is that with Brexit voters took away the ruling class excuse for domestic failings, and at some stage the mood music will turn to "stop making excuses!"

I don't think that's true. They'll continue blaming EU intransigence, as they are right now, for all their failings for decades to come.

ancapailldorcha

The Raging Bile Duct wrote: »

I don't that's true. They'll continue blaming EU intransigence, as they are right now, for all their failings for decades to come.

I disagree. It's the problem with the "take back control" maxim. The UK has apparently taken back control so it makes even less sense to blame Brussels than it did before.

What's more likely is that the government will just utilise whatever culture war issue happens to feature on the agenda to distract people and sadly, signs are that this will work.

KildareP

It's the EU's fault that UK traders are suffering so much because the EU are applying all these "new" rules out of spite.

Will turn into...

It's the EU's intransigence that is preventing a "world beating" deal with the UK that the UK "really, really, really wants to strike with our friends and neighbours".

Will turn into...

It's the EU's fault that the UK can't trade freely with other nations because those nations are only allowing us to use whatever quotas the EU didn't previously use.

Will turn into...

The EU are trying to hold UK trade policy hostage by inserting "favoured nation" clauses into their trade deals with the countries we are trying to strike new deals with.


There's plenty more ammo lined up by the Tories to keep the EU front and centre for all of the ills that may yet come the UK's way and with opinion polls trending the way they are there'll be no need for them to change tact anytime soon.

I don't see how any collective realisation or change of heart can materialise in the next 5-10 years to shift public opinion either.

Strazdas

ancapailldorcha wrote: »

I disagree. It's the problem with the "take back control" maxim. The UK has apparently taken back control so it makes even less sense to blame Brussels than it did before.

What's more likely is that the government will just utilise whatever culture war issue happens to feature on the agenda to distract people and sadly, signs are that this will work.

The journalist Paul Mason reckons the Tories sole raison d'etre is to be in power for the sake of being in power. They have no actual policies....therefore the culture wars and ongoing attacks on the EU make perfect sense (they believe focusing on idiotic things like flags and statues, plus having lots of external enemies will keep them in power for years).

ancapailldorcha

KildareP wrote: »

I don't see how any collective realisation or change of heart can materialise in the next 5-10 years to shift public opinion either.

I'm not seeing it. Save for the Article 16 carry on which the tabloid press here milked for all it was worth and then some, the tactic of pinning things on the EU has served its purpose.

Labour are a shambles. If there was an election tomorrow and Johnson ran on a ticket of making the BBC play Land of Hope & Glory on Last Night of the Proms and protecting the statue of Churchill in Parliament Square he'd probably win.

Culture trumps economics as we've seen the left, remainers, social democrats and liberals fail, fail and fail again to grasp. The Brexiters stopped pretending there was a benefit to Brexit the day after the referendum because they didn't need to maintain the charade.

There will not be a change of heart regarding the EU. The UK has left and won't be rejoining in the forseeable future. The next hurdle is seeing how well the British economy performs relative to the EU's once restrictions are eased.

Ultimately, there won't be a change of heart unless people see a tangible change to their standard of living.

ancapailldorcha

Strazdas wrote: »

The journalist Paul Mason reckons the Tories sole raison d'etre is to be in power for the sake of being in power. They have no actual policies....therefore the culture wars and ongoing attacks on the EU make perfect sense (they believe focusing on idiotic things like flags and statues, plus having lots of external enemies will keep them in power for years).

There's a very Nero-esque fidding while Rome burns vibe to it alright. British music, arts and theatre have taken a pummelling and you had the actual culture secretary, Oliver Dowden berate the BBC for not having sufficient Union flags.

Conservatism is a dead ideology. It's a braindead beast running on pure instinct at this stage. It has no answers to difficult questions, no vision for the future and nothing to offer the present. All that it has are base prejudices evinced by the culture war carry on and incessant campaigning from the government.

schmoo2k

Question - is/has Boris simply taken a "play" from the Trump politics book? And if so, what happens when the Republicans get a majority in 4 years time?
I am assuming that Boris and the Tories will also get re-elected (from their point of view, all they have to do is cut Scotland loose and they will always have a majority?)

---bleh---

yagan

ancapailldorcha wrote: »

I'm not seeing it. Save for the Article 16 carry on which the tabloid press here milked for all it was worth and then some, the tactic of pinning things on the EU has served its purpose.

Labour are a shambles. If there was an election tomorrow and Johnson ran on a ticket of making the BBC play Land of Hope & Glory on Last Night of the Proms and protecting the statue of Churchill in Parliament Square he'd probably win.

Culture trumps economics as we've seen the left, remainers, social democrats and liberals fail, fail and fail again to grasp. The Brexiters stopped pretending there was a benefit to Brexit the day after the referendum because they didn't need to maintain the charade.

There will not be a change of heart regarding the EU. The UK has left and won't be rejoining in the forseeable future. The next hurdle is seeing how well the British economy performs relative to the EU's once restrictions are eased.

Ultimately, there won't be a change of heart unless people see a tangible change to their standard of living.

I agree with that, although I'd drop using the "liberal" label when really in the case of Brexit it's mostly rational people that are being targeted with it.

At some stage brexit boredom will set in. Actually this whole European Superleague has actually superseded Brexit in giving English people something new to be split over.

Plus in a poll linked earlier on this thread something like 90% said they weren't happy with Johnson's last minute deal, and as each limitation becomes obvious as restrictions lift I expect the crumbling to increase. People will find a way to detach their decision to leave from Johnson's botchjob.

ancapailldorcha

yagan wrote: »

I agree with that, although I'd drop using the "liberal" label when really in the case of Brexit it's mostly rational people that are being targeted with it.

Are liberals not rational?

steddyeddy

The most interesting thing to me is that the Conservative party have taken the UK least economically conservative route possible.

Evd-Burner

Yeah, I bought from here prior to Brexit. You may be better off sourcing an EU supplier though.

yagan

ancapailldorcha wrote: »

Are liberals not rational?

There's rational conservatives too, but in the Brexit sphere the label "liberal" seems a recent import slur from the USAs culture war.

It's seems as a follow on replacement to remoaner now that Brexit has passed, so it can also be used against Leave voters who criticise the Johnsons deal.

ancapailldorcha

yagan wrote: »

There's rational conservatives too, but in the Brexit sphere the label "liberal" seems a recent import slur from the USAs culture war.

It's seems as a follow on replacement to remoaner now that Brexit has passed, so it can also be used against Leave voters who criticise the Johnsons deal.

I use it in the English sense, not the American or French so I'll stick with that. The UK has a long, fine tradition of liberal thought so I see no reason to surrender the word because the likes of Johnson and Patel have adopted US culture war tactics.

pixelburp

ancapailldorcha wrote: »

There's a very Nero-esque fidding while Rome burns vibe to it alright. British music, arts and theatre have taken a pummelling and you had the actual culture secretary, Oliver Dowden berate the BBC for not having sufficient Union flags.

Conservatism is a dead ideology. It's a braindead beast running on pure instinct at this stage. It has no answers to difficult questions, no vision for the future and nothing to offer the present. All that it has are base prejudices evinced by the culture war carry on and incessant campaigning from the government.

This might be a touch morbid on my part, but I have wondered if the death of Phillip and potentially/likely passing of Elizabeth is something the Conservatives are secretly cheered over. It's exactly the kind of national event that could engender the right form of patriotic/jingoistic fillip (delete where applicable) an empty national platform would want at this time. Whereupon any criticism, nuanced or not, is immediately hounded from the public domain for being anti-British - or even trecherous with the right headlines in place.

The Raging Bile Duct

pixelburp wrote: »

This might be a touch morbid on my part, but I have wondered if the death of Phillip and potentially/likely passing of Elizabeth is something the Conservatives are secretly cheered over. It's exactly the kind of national event that could engender the right form of patriotic/jingoistic fillip (delete where applicable) an empty national platform would want at this time. Whereupon any criticism, nuanced or not, is immediately hounded from the public domain for being anti-British - or even trecherous with the right headlines in place.

Does Charles take over if the Queen dies? That would be a disaster if that was the case. He's not very popular.

Capt'n Midnight

Strazdas wrote: »

The journalist Paul Mason reckons the Tories sole raison d'etre is to be in power for the sake of being in power. They have no actual policies....therefore the culture wars and ongoing attacks on the EU make perfect sense (they believe focusing on idiotic things like flags and statues, plus having lots of external enemies will keep them in power for years).

Generic Tory templates that they didn't bother to proof read this from 2015 , this from this week

To go further it's as if the reason to be in power is a chumocracy. It isn't to help Joe Public. It isn't to stop immigration. It isn't to help independent small businesses. If it was any of those things they'd be doing them all along.


Brexit was a blank cheque.

Capt'n Midnight

This PDF breaks Leave voters into three categories,
- ‘Economically deprived, anti-immigration’ group, 95% of whom voted Leave.
- ‘Older working classes’, of whom 73% voted Leave.
- Comfortable leavers: the expectations and hopes of the overlooked Brexit voters

the Leave ‘tribe’ shares a sense of domestic priorities that require significant further investment: the
police and fighting crime; the NHS and care workers; bringing back proper, secure work for
high quality domestic production — as well as apprenticeships in real jobs
...
This hope was usually expressed as an opportunity to revive industries that had suffered or been lost.
Among these, heavy industry, such as steel and manufacturing and food production (not
least fishing) were particularly prominent

Given how Maggie eviscerated UK industry and how Tory cuts then and since have affected govt services, the lack of support for industry and the lip service paid to non-EU immigration I'm at a complete loss as to what sort of self delusion meant people expected a New Jerusalem.

It's like expecting a face eating leopard to change it's spots

ancapailldorcha

pixelburp wrote: »

This might be a touch morbid on my part, but I have wondered if the death of Phillip and potentially/likely passing of Elizabeth is something the Conservatives are secretly cheered over. It's exactly the kind of national event that could engender the right form of patriotic/jingoistic fillip (delete where applicable) an empty national platform would want at this time. Whereupon any criticism, nuanced or not, is immediately hounded from the public domain for being anti-British - or even trecherous with the right headlines in place.

I don't think so. There's no shortage of artificial culture war nonsense for people to row over as it is. It feels to me like Prince Philip is yesterday's news already though it should be noted that he's only the Queen's consort and not a monarch himself.

When she does pass on, her life and death will be used and abused in a sickening manner by many of the right here to take their shots at opponents and to burnish their flag-waving credentials and then it'll be discarded for the next cultural trinket. Sad but there you go.

I don't think any grounded conservative is looking forward to her demise as Charles comes across as being a lot less likeable. Monarchists are going to find him a lot harder to defend than his mother.

Capt'n Midnight

After spending the last 72 years being groomed for Kingship, what are the chances of Charles abdicating for William ?

Or becoming regent if her nibbs goes gaga ?

Expect the the less ethical politicians to exploit it. She's 95 next month and while the Queen Mum got past the century there are no guarantees at that age. BBC will go full on no-fun mode.

What bad news was hidden during Philips funeral ?

serfboard

yagan wrote: »

with Brexit voters took away the ruling class excuse for domestic failings

I would rephrase this to "with Brexit voters took away a ruling class excuse for domestic failings". The ruling class will find plenty of other excuses when Brexit fails to deliver.