Brexit discussion thread XIV (Please read OP before posting)

Leroy42

Professor Moriarty wrote: »

I wonder is this the EU using its clout albeit in a relatively minor way. Norway is very much connected to the EU and perhaps it was made known in a quiet way that the EU wouldn't like that deal to go ahead.

Ironically, UK Fisheries is an Icelandic and Dutch owned company.

Why attribute something to malice when its probably just incompetence.

Very likely, given how this government behaved throughout Brexit, that they played silly buggers with Norway and lost.

Take the recent EU ambassador role messing. UK seem to want to score points rather than make deals.

I won't be surprised if after a few weeks a deal is struck. UK probably threatened to walk away (No Deal) so Norway let them. They'll have to come to the table and Norway will hold all the cards.

The Raging Bile Duct

Professor Moriarty wrote: »

I wonder is this the EU using its clout albeit in a relatively minor way. Norway is very much connected to the EU and perhaps it was made known in a quiet way that the EU wouldn't like that deal to go ahead.

Ironically, UK Fisheries is an Icelandic and Dutch owned company.

I'd imagine it's more a case of turning the Brexit motto 'they need us more than we need them' back on the British. The UK are still going to need to get Arctic cod into their chippers so it's a handy way for the Norwegians to make more money for their own fleets by catching the fish themselves and selling it to the British.

Professor Moriarty

The Raging Bile Duct wrote: »

I'd imagine it's more a case of turning the Brexit motto 'they need us more than we need them' back on the British. The UK are still going to need to get Arctic cod into their chippers so it's a handy way for the Norwegians to make more money for their own fleets by catching the fish themselves and selling it to the British.

Yeah. This deal constituted 8% of the fish in UK chippers.

Professor Moriarty

Knuckles Kennedy wrote: »

A lot less than the 100% of British spuds in Irish chippers ...

And very tasty they are too.

ancapailldorcha

Knuckles Kennedy wrote: »

Commercial fishing accounts for 0.1% of the UK's GDP
About the equivalent of Harrods department store.
This hiccup in negotiations will have far less impact than the recent European Commission ruling that Ireland cannot be trusted to measure its fishing quotas properly and associated penalties in the form of the loss of thousands of tonnes of quota and up to €40m in Commission funding.

Sure but the industry's political importance far outweighs that of Harrods. It also employs a lot more people who are concentrated in areas enough to matter politically.

It is right to point out that voting to damage the nation because some people were wrongly convinced that the EU was choking the fishing industry was a very foolish idea and those chickens are now coming home to roost.

Strazdas

fash wrote: »

Check out the sentiment of younger Scots - this Turkey (the UK) is done. One would have to be delusional to think the UK will still be together in that time. In particular as English and Scottish politics further polarises: they had EU membership in common: now one is rabidly EU phobic; Scots don't vote Tory - and continue to be more and more excluded from English/UK politics.

Indeed, and history shows us that nearly every historical union of countries in Europe has broken up into smaller parts : Austro-Hungarian empire, Russian empire, Yugoslavia etc.

(The EU is a completely different kettle of fish - many of the newly sovereign countries from above have voluntarily and willingly joined it).

Seth Brundle

Knuckles Kennedy wrote: »

Commercial fishing accounts for 0.1% of the UK's GDP
About the equivalent of Harrods department store.
This hiccup in negotiations will have far less impact than the recent European Commission ruling that Ireland cannot be trusted to measure its fishing quotas properly and associated penalties in the form of the loss of thousands of tonnes of quota and up to €40m in Commission funding.

It simply shows that yet again, UK negotiators failed to secure anything beneficial for the UK over what they previously held when in the EU

Seth Brundle

Knuckles Kennedy wrote: »

It's amazing how many of the original members of the EU are so reluctant to allow their citizens a referendum on continued membership.

I'm unaware of any meaningful demand for a referendum in any countries. Maybe you can provide evidence of this

Knuckles Kennedy wrote: »

And how the EU fought tooth and nail to prevent the UK from leaving.

In what way did the EU fight "tooth and nail" the UK's decision to leave the EU. It was a stupid decision that would have a negative impact on the EU (and a much much larger negative impact on the UK) and the EU advised against it but did not fight it - unless you have evidence of this from a reputable source

Knuckles Kennedy wrote: »

Perhaps it was because they were the second largest contributor to the EU budget. Some hole left there ...

Did the UK not get anything in return for their EU membership?

Triangle

Knuckles Kennedy wrote: »

It's amazing how many of the original members of the EU are so reluctant to allow their citizens a referendum on continued membership.


And how the EU fought tooth and nail to prevent the UK from leaving.


Perhaps it was because they were the second largest contributor to the EU budget. Some hole left there ...

You're delusional, the EU stayed out of the debate when they were asked to by Blair.
They came out recently saying it was a mistake and they should have got involved.

I think you're so far down the rabbit hole your memory is being twisted.

Professor Moriarty

Knuckles Kennedy wrote: »

It's amazing how many of the original members of the EU are so reluctant to allow their citizens a referendum on continued membership.


And how the EU fought tooth and nail to prevent the UK from leaving.


Perhaps it was because they were the second largest contributor to the EU budget. Some hole left there ...

No need for referendums .A median of 66% of EU citizens have a favourable view of the EU.

Triangle

Knuckles Kennedy wrote: »

All those leading EU politicians and officials who got the band back together for another 2nd Lisbon Treaty referendum and backed the doomed Remain campaign for a " People's Vote " must have been a dream then ...

And right here is where I realise this is wasted time.

Best of luck.

reslfj

Knuckles Kennedy wrote: »

It's amazing how many of the original members of the EU are so reluctant to allow their citizens a referendum on continued membership.


And how the EU fought tooth and nail to prevent the UK from leaving.


Perhaps it was because they were the second largest contributor to the EU budget. Some hole left there ...

Brexiters :mad:

"You're joking - not another one!" /quote "Brenda from Bristol"

Lars

PS!
Margaret Thatcher, called the referendum “a device of dictators and demagogues” -
at least here she was absolutely right.

The EU did not fight to prevent the UK from activating A50 - just thinking it was/is very stupid and self-destructive for England.

The EU covid-19 package is €750bn (on top of the EU budget) and the UK net contribution was a mere ~10bn. Get your proportions right - please

BlitzKrieg

Knuckles Kennedy wrote: »

All those leading EU politicians and officials who got the band back together for another 2nd Lisbon Treaty referendum and backed the doomed Remain campaign for a " People's Vote " must have been a dream then ...

Must have been a dream because that didn't happen. No 'leading eu politician' outside of actual British politicians said or backed anything related to a 'peoples vote'

The same with Lisbon 2, the EU actually said officially almost nothing on having a 2nd referendum, I think most of their statements were simply they'd have meetings and discussions with the Irish government and the other member state leaders.

What actually set off official proceeding for a formal 2nd referendum from the Irish government was the EU election results that occurred between the first and second Lisbon referendum.

Where with exception to Sinn Fein the entire political momentum of the Lisbon no campaign died suddenly and completely when none of the new anti EU parties like Libertas (there's a name I've not heard in a long time) gained any seats in the election across Europe. Whatever momentum that drove the Lisbon no campaign was gone.

ancapailldorcha

Mod: Please don't make insinuations on thread as to whether or not a user has had previous accounts. Posts removed.

Strazdas

BlitzKrieg wrote: »

Must have been a dream because that didn't happen. No 'leading eu politician' outside of actual British politicians said or backed anything related to a 'peoples vote'

The same with Lisbon 2, the EU actually said officially almost nothing on having a 2nd referendum, I think most of their statements were simply they'd have meetings and discussions with the Irish government and the other member state leaders.

What actually set off official proceeding for a formal 2nd referendum from the Irish government was the EU election results that occurred between the first and second Lisbon referendum.

Where with exception to Sinn Fein the entire political momentum of the Lisbon no campaign died suddenly and completely when none of the new anti EU parties like Libertas (there's a name I've not heard in a long time) gained any seats in the election across Europe. Whatever momentum that drove the Lisbon no campaign was gone.

The EU don't hold referendums and have no authority to request a member state hold one.

My clear recollection of the Lisbon Treaty campaign is that a second referendum was always a strong possibility if the vote was defeated (and I actually voted No in the first one). The Brexit guys are convinced it was forced onto Ireland.

BlitzKrieg

Strazdas wrote: »

My clear recollection of the Lisbon Treaty campaign is that a second referendum was always a strong possibility if the vote was defeated (and I actually voted No in the first one). The Brexit guys are convinced it was forced onto Ireland.

Yep it was the running commentary well even before the vote, there were plenty of posters on here (have we lost all the old lisbon referendum threads? some serious gold in there) who were planning to vote with the expectation they'll be voting again.

That was actually a weird common ground I saw among some voters in both lisbon and brexit, they wanted to vote 'no' on the first vote to send a message to their national government over issues but intended to vote yes on the expected 2nd vote after the government got the message. Must look up some of those brexit voters who said that, they must feel really annoyed now how badly that backfired on them.


But officially no one said anything until well into 2009 where there was talk of Ireland negotiating a deal and then after the EU elections happened they announced the deal and the 2nd referendum.

Detritus70

Maximilian Robespierre as usual has a very good take on the latest Norway fishing fiasko.
I don't know how to call this anything other than snatching defeat from the jaws of victory.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BojeOMYRbQs

I find one of the comments very telling:

Son Of Viking
6 hours ago
The reporting of this is much simpler in Norway.

1. March 16th 2021 - Norway, the EU and the UK agree on North Sea access and quotas, in which Norway and Britain will continue with each other's pre-Brexit access and quotas arrangement.
2. March 25th 2021 - Norway and the UK sit down to formalise this agreement bilaterally, at which point the UK informs Norway that it didn't really mean what it said before and that actually it now wants to restrict access for Norwegian vessels in British waters.
3. April 2nd 2021 - Norway officially informs Britain that this means everyone must get back together then and revisit the March 16th agreement. The UK responds by saying that it has nothing further to add and will not speak to the EU again until 2022.
4. April 28th 2021 - Norway officially informs Britain that it cannot even begin a year-long access haggle at this stage of the fishing calendar and must simply work around this new stance by the UK side. In the meantime it was nice knowing you, but please stay out of our waters too until you can make up your minds if you want to negotiate in good faith or not.
5. April 29th 2021 - the UK government announces officially to its own people that it's having "ongoing" talks with "stubborn" but "friendly" Norwegians, who are nevertheless now the "baddies" and are depriving UK citizens of their fish'n'chips.
6. April 30th 2021 - the Norwegian government announces a compensation scheme for inconvenienced Norwegian trawler companies and has opened talks with the EU concerning possible legal action against the UK for reneging on an agreement within three weeks (a new record, even for Johnson's outfit). As a courtesy, it has invited Britain back in late summer to see if they have learnt anything about negotiating in the meantime.

This confirms the pattern the British government has been following to date.
Take part in negotiations, nothing unusual here, work out a deal, handshakes all round, so far so good.
Before the ink is even dry, let the other side know that you will not in a million years accept the shoddy deal they "forced" you to take and announce that you will immediatley break the terms of that deal.
I wonder how many more toes the UK will have to step on, before no one would negotiate with them anymore, or only sign deals that include a nuke button for the whole deal should the UK violate as much as a comma in the contract.
Only a complete fool would defend the actions of the British, I wouldn't trust them any more than I'd trust North Korea or Russia.
And Britian will end up the North Korea of Europe for a few decades, until they learn how to properly behave on a global level.
They'll soon start winding their neck in.

Strazdas

BlitzKrieg wrote: »

Yep it was the running commentary well even before the vote, there were plenty of posters on here (have we lost all the old lisbon referendum threads? some serious gold in there) who were planning to vote with the expectation they'll be voting again.

That was actually a weird common ground I saw among some voters in both lisbon and brexit, they wanted to vote 'no' on the first vote to send a message to their national government over issues but intended to vote yes on the expected 2nd vote after the government got the message. Must look up some of those brexit voters who said that, they must feel really annoyed now how badly that backfired on them.


But officially no one said anything until well into 2009 where there was talk of Ireland negotiating a deal and then after the EU elections happened they announced the deal and the 2nd referendum.

Farage and other Brexiteers have been misrepresenting this for years : claimed that the EU "forced" Ireland to hold a second referendum, when the impetus for it came from Ireland itself. Also, when the second referendum was announced, people barely even batted an eyelid.

CelticRambler

BlitzKrieg wrote: »

That was actually a weird common ground I saw among some voters in both lisbon and brexit, they wanted to vote 'no' on the first vote to send a message to their national government over issues but intended to vote yes on the expected 2nd vote after the government got the message.

That was a strategy employed by the French in their presidential elections for decades: cast your protest vote for any no-hoper, safe in the knowledge that the System would always ensure that the second round would be a run-off between the candidates of the centre-right and the centre-left.

And then all of a sudden those protest votes (and an electoral system no longer fit for purpose) propelled a far-right candidate into the run-off, and the protest-voters complained that they were left with no choice. Several presidential elections later, they're still at it, currently moaning about how badly Macron is handling the pandemic and planning to vote for Le Pen Jr. in the first round as a protest ... even though all the opinion polls suggest that few really want her as president. :rolleyes:

For all the moaning and whinging in certain quarters, I think Ireland has one of the best, most functional electoral systems in the world - and a relatively intelligent electorate that knows that votes do matter and shouldn't be wasted on symbolic protests.

Against a backdrop of general discontent with politicians in countries saddled with two-party (or one-party) traditions, it would be nice to see the EU provoke and promote a discussion on what parliamentary structures and electoral processes are best suited for the remaining decades of the 21st Century.

Strazdas

Detritus70 wrote: »

Maximilian Robespierre as usual has a very good take on the latest Norway fishing fiasko.
I don't know how to call this anything other than snatching defeat from the jaws of victory.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BojeOMYRbQs

I find one of the comments very telling:



This confirms the pattern the British government has been following to date.
Take part in negotiations, nothing unusual here, work out a deal, handshakes all round, so far so good.
Before the ink is even dry, let the other side know that you will not in a million years accept the shoddy deal they "forced" you to take and announce that you will immediatley break the terms of that deal.
I wonder how many more toes the UK will have to step on, before no one would negotiate with them anymore, or only sign deals that include a nuke button for the whole deal should the UK violate as much as a comma in the contract.
Only a complete fool would defend the actions of the British, I wouldn't trust them any more than I'd trust North Korea or Russia.
And Britian will end up the North Korea of Europe for a few decades, until they learn how to properly behave on a global level.
They'll soon start winding their neck in.

They (govt) and their state media / propaganda arm are like the Belarus of western Europe at the moment. "We are the good guys, but unfortunately we're surrounded on all sides by these horrible EU countries who are trying to screw us over". One wonders how long it will take for the penny to drop with the British public.

Shelga

So regarding the UK-Norway bilateral fishing access deal- both sides had agreed to maintain the mutually beneficial access to each other’s waters that they had enjoyed for decades, until the UK changed its mind and said, actually no, you can’t fish in our waters at all anymore? Is that about the size of it?

How is that better for British fishermen? I think I already know the answer...

Going Strong

correct horse battery staple wrote: »

My recollection was Nigel farage coming here and certain leaflet being sent homes which pretty much made everyone laugh and wonder why that English t!t entered the debate here.

Not forgetting him being visibly uncomfortable at having to campaign alongside Sinn Fein and the populist left parties who were leading the No campaign.

Leroy42

The more I read into this Norway No Deal fiasco the more amazed I am that it is making such little waves in the UK.

This is a complete disaster for the fishing industry. And its not that both sides lose, as many argued about Brexit, Norway keep their rights and the UK lose out completely.

Is this the new global Britain? The new powerhouse freed from the shackles of the EU?

Fishing was supposed to be the holy grail of brexit. The one clear and obvious area that Britain would see benefits from. Other areas might see plusses and minuses, but fishing was all positive.

And tbf, they did have a strong hand, certainly stronger than in other areas. And yet this is the mess it has ended up as?

BonnieSituation

Knuckles Kennedy wrote: »

That it's important not to take things for granted.
But as I wrote earlier, it's a storm in a teacup.
Hardly worth worrying about in the scheme of things don't you think ?

An important point that's a storm in the tea cup?

Pick a lane.

astrofool

Leroy42 wrote: »

The more I read into this Norway No Deal fiasco the more amazed I am that it is making such little waves in the UK.

This is a complete disaster for the fishing industry. And its not that both sides lose, as many argued about Brexit, Norway keep their rights and the UK lose out completely.

Is this the new global Britain? The new powerhouse freed from the shackles of the EU?

Fishing was supposed to be the holy grail of brexit. The one clear and obvious area that Britain would see benefits from. Other areas might see plusses and minuses, but fishing was all positive.

And tbf, they did have a strong hand, certainly stronger than in other areas. And yet this is the mess it has ended up as?

One positive out of it is that it keeps quiet those who insist Ireland would be better off out of the EU due to our fishing stocks, unless we wanted to gorge ourselves on fish at every meal of the day of course.

The UK fishermen have really been hoisted by their own petard.

Strazdas

astrofool wrote: »

One positive out of it is that it keeps quiet those who insist Ireland would be better off out of the EU due to our fishing stocks, unless we wanted to gorge ourselves on fish at every meal of the day of course.

The UK fishermen have really been hoisted by their own petard.

Farmers too. There seems to be a lot of karma going on : all the industries which were gung ho for Brexit are now paying the price.

Even they must know now they were lied to by Vote Leave and leading Brexiteers.

serfboard

Strazdas wrote: »

Even they must know now they were lied to by Vote Leave and leading Brexiteers.

They might, but it seems that the DUP still haven’t figured it out.

They really are “slow learners”, as Seamus Mallon said.

Widdensushi

Shelga wrote: »

So regarding the UK-Norway bilateral fishing access deal- both sides had agreed to maintain the mutually beneficial access to each other’s waters that they had enjoyed for decades, until the UK changed its mind and said, actually no, you can’t fish in our waters at all anymore? Is that about the size of it?

How is that better for British fishermen? I think I already know the answer...

Having 200 Norwegian vessels not fishing in their waters is better for them obviously. The big loser without a deal was a large Dutch owned company who lost thousands of tonnes of cod quota with no deal, maybe if that company was British owned they might have tried to make a deal....

Leroy42

Widdensushi wrote: »

Having 200 Norwegian vessels not fishing in their waters is better for them obviously. The big loser without a deal was a large Dutch owned company who lost thousands of tonnes of cod quota with no deal, maybe if that company was British owned they might have tried to make a deal....

Not when they lose access to the Norway fishing waters, which has the fish type the UK market actually wants.

Its a car crash, no matter what way they they try to spin it. And we all know that in a few months they will agree a deal and laud it as another UK triumph when all it is is yet another example that the government has no idea what it is doing. Every decision seems to be made in total isolation to everything else, no apparent understanding of the knock on effects.

But, based on past experience, this is what the UK public like. They are seemingly easily taken in by apparent success, after the mandatory 'screw them ' stand off. The damage caused seems to be instantly forgotten and the achievement, in many cases no better than what they already had, is taken as a major success

Now all the cod eaten in the chippies etc will be caught and sold by non UK boats. So loss of jobs, loss on tax income.

Widdensushi

Leroy42 wrote: »

Not when they lose access to the Norway fishing waters, which has the fish type the UK market actually wants.

Its a car crash, no matter what way they they try to spin it. And we all know that in a few months they will agree a deal and laud it as another UK triumph when all it is is yet another example that the government has no idea what it is doing. Every decision seems to be made in total isolation to everything else, no apparent understanding of the knock on effects.

But, based on past experience, this is what the UK public like. They are seemingly easily taken in by apparent success, after the mandatory 'screw them ' stand off. The damage caused seems to be instantly forgotten and the achievement, in many cases no better than what they already had, is taken as a major success

Now all the cod eaten in the chippies etc will be caught and sold by non UK boats. So loss of jobs, loss on tax income.

Plenty of haddock and cod in British waters, the vast majority of British fishermen are happy with no deal, it means a better market for their fish and better fishing in their waters, the big loser was the kirkella, easy to Google, mainly Dutch owned.