Brexit discussion thread XIV (Please read OP before posting)

Capt'n Midnight

CelticRambler wrote: »

For the sake of balance, I haven't experienced any disruption in respect of the three British products that make it into my trolley - Weetabix, Quaker Oats and McVities digestives, presumably because they're "dry" goods and not subject to SPS checks. No change in price either ... yet.

If you wait until the 72 packs of Weetabix are on special offer in Tesco or Dunnes then they are as cheap as the generics and best by date is usually next year. About €1 a stick vs €1.50 which shows the markup on them.

Same overhead per delivery as posting a block of cheddar except we get it by the truck load.

Strazdas

The easing of the Covid restrictions is going to be a "penny dropping" moment for many people in the UK. They've been largely shielded from the bad effects of Brexit so far and Britain being a third country in the manner of Belarus or Kazakhstan.

Leroy42

Strazdas wrote: »

The easing of the Covid restrictions is going to be a "penny dropping" moment for many people in the UK. They've been largely shielded from the bad effects of Brexit so far and Britain being a third country in the manner of Belarus or Kazakhstan.

Only if they implement controls, which as of yet they haven't. If everyday items remain the same for the majority then 'isolated' issues can be ignored as a combination of EU vengeance and failure to prepare(and thus the persons own fault).

There is the sunk cost. Many will be slow to look to blame themselves(as voters) and thus by extension the government for duping them.

Calm down and carry on will be the mantra.

schmoo2k

I have said this before, but the biggest losers will be the under privileged areas that the EU would have targeted for development funds, what is going to happen now is the Tory strong holds will prosper and the rest will be ignored - while being sold this "we is great" line...

Strazdas

Leroy42 wrote: »

Only if they implement controls, which as of yet they haven't. If everyday items remain the same for the majority then 'isolated' issues can be ignored as a combination of EU vengeance and failure to prepare(and thus the persons own fault).

There is the sunk cost. Many will be slow to look to blame themselves(as voters) and thus by extension the government for duping them.

Calm down and carry on will be the mantra.

But definitely when they try to travel through busy airports again and find they are the equivalent of a Belarusian trying to enter the EU. Covid has completely concealed the travel restrictions.

schmoo2k

Strazdas wrote: »

But definitely when they try to travel through busy airports again and find they are the equivalent of a Belarusian trying to enter the EU. Covid has completely concealed the travel restrictions.

Meh, not really as the UK and IE were always outside the Schengen area, so always had to take the longer Q.

Leroy42

schmoo2k wrote: »

Meh, not really as the UK and IE were always outside the Schengen area, so always had to take the longer Q.

It is totally different. EU passport is still the quickest que. Now their passport is the equivalent of Nigeria, China etc. Is visa up to date, travel times, return tickets, place to stay etc etc.

yagan

Leroy42 wrote: »

It is totally different. EU passport is still the quickest que. Now their passport is the equivalent of Nigeria, China etc. Is visa up to date, travel times, return tickets, place to stay etc etc.

All it takes is a few complicated customers and the non-EU queue will back up while EU passengers free flow.

ArmaniJeanss

If there's 3 flights from Gatwick, Manchester and Newcastle arriving into Alicante or Heraklion in quick succession, I wonder will the airports increase the staffing at the non-EU booths to reflect this.

It's not really in anyone's interest to have planeloads of people queueing at the airport when they could be at their resort and spending. If they keep the current ratio in place then there'll be major jams.

Capt'n Midnight

ArmaniJeanss wrote: »

If there's 3 flights from Gatwick, Manchester and Newcastle arriving into Alicante or Heraklion in quick succession, I wonder will the airports increase the staffing at the non-EU booths to reflect this.

It's not really in anyone's interest to have planeloads of people queueing at the airport when they could be at their resort and spending. If they keep the current ratio in place then there'll be major jams.

Meanwhile in Brexitland it's all going swimmingly.
https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2021/apr/29/heathrow-ministers-must-get-a-grip-of-customs-before-17-may

“We’ve had to turn away flights because of congestion in immigration. If they struggle with less than 10% of normal volumes they are going to have to do something very different to be ready for 17 May.”

yagan

ArmaniJeanss wrote: »

If there's 3 flights from Gatwick, Manchester and Newcastle arriving into Alicante or Heraklion in quick succession, I wonder will the airports increase the staffing at the non-EU booths to reflect this.

It's not really in anyone's interest to have planeloads of people queueing at the airport when they could be at their resort and spending. If they keep the current ratio in place then there'll be major jams.

It's obvious the EU lanes will get priority as there'll be returning EU citizens using it, and once those lanes have eased then more non-EU channels can open.

I was at a Irish/English wedding in Italy a few years ago where plenty of family from both sides attended. In the current 90 day Schengen limitation for UK entrants such events won't be as easy if attending means messing up other Schengen holiday plans for UK passport holders.

The best man might have attended a championship match four months earlier and then find himself turned back as his next 90 day Schengen stay isn't for another 60 days etc....

Peregrinus

ArmaniJeanss wrote: »

If there's 3 flights from Gatwick, Manchester and Newcastle arriving into Alicante or Heraklion in quick succession, I wonder will the airports increase the staffing at the non-EU booths to reflect this.

It's not really in anyone's interest to have planeloads of people queueing at the airport when they could be at their resort and spending. If they keep the current ratio in place then there'll be major jams.

The people who staff the immigration control booths aren't provided by the airport; they are provided directly by the relevant government department. Whether to provide more of them is, therefore, a political decision.

A few years ago in the UK the airlines (and the airport) wanted more immigration officials provided at Heathrow Terminal 3, which received a lot of flights from Africa and Asia, with a great many visa-required travellers. Wait times of tow to three hours to clear immigration were not uncommon. The airlines offered to pay increased landing fees in return for the allocation of more resources to immigration control, but the Home Office (whose responsiblity it was at the time) declined. Basically, the wanted travellers from these parts of the world to have a tough time entering the UK.

So, the question in Spain and Portugal will be, is there a political desire to facilitate the entry of UK travellers? And the answer will almost certainly be 'yes'. Yagan suggest that when the EU lanes have cleared - which will happen very quickly - staff could then be redeployed to the non-EU lanes, but this won't help much, since there are very few staff on the EU lanes to begin with. The likely solution is that more staff will be provided and (possibly) the cost of this will be recouped either by higher landing fees or by an airport tax on non-EU/EEA passengers.

reslfj

Peregrinus wrote: »

...
Yagan suggest that when the EU lanes have cleared - which will happen very quickly - staff could then be redeployed to the non-EU lanes, but this won't help much, since there are very few staff on the EU lanes to begin with. ...

There is no checks at all for EU/Schengen travellers arriving in Schengen airports and no civil service persons to relocate.
Flights between Schengen countries departs and arrives at different gates than do UK flights.

The checks for UK citizens should not have changed much with Brexit. Schengen rules for UK citizens have not changed.

For UK travellers the checks will only change marginally from 2023 when the ETIAS passport pre-registration/visa waiver system will go into operation.

Lars

dogbert27

ArmaniJeanss wrote: »

If there's 3 flights from Gatwick, Manchester and Newcastle arriving into Alicante or Heraklion in quick succession, I wonder will the airports increase the staffing at the non-EU booths to reflect this.

It's not really in anyone's interest to have planeloads of people queueing at the airport when they could be at their resort and spending. If they keep the current ratio in place then there'll be major jams.

I was flying every week for work for five years in various airports and I never saw logic like that applied.

It won't happen just because of Brexit.

CelticRambler

It's not so much the checking per se that'll make a difference to Schengen in-bound British passport holders, it's the likelihood that far more irregularities will need supplementary questions. Previously, as long as your passport was in date and you weren't on a watchlist, the border official had no reason to talk to you other than to say "Goodbye. Next!"

Now, there will be people with less than six months validity left on their passport. They may be flagged up as being at, or over, the 90 days limit. They ought to be asked "what's the purpose of your visit?" Just asking these questions will add a few seconds here, a minute or two there, and unless there's a filter system in place to divert every "irregularity" out of the main queue, the domino effect of these small delays will be compounded.

Edit: ... and our old friend "reciprocity" rears his head! Regarding covid control measures for travel this summer:

A senior official said the UK could be added to the green list but that it would depend on a reciprocal willingness to open its borders to all EU citizens. “The figures for the UK are good,” the EU official said. “Those vaccinated in the UK will be eligible to travel to the EU but [we are] mindful of other aspects: reciprocity. It is still a principle under this new recommendation.”

dogbert27

CelticRambler wrote: »

It's not so much the checking per se that'll make a difference to Schengen in-bound British passport holders, it's the likelihood that far more irregularities will need supplementary questions. Previously, as long as your passport was in date and you weren't on a watchlist, the border official had no reason to talk to you other than to say "Goodbye. Next!"

Now, there will be people with less than six months validity left on their passport. They may be flagged up as being at, or over, the 90 days limit. They ought to be asked "what's the purpose of your visit?" Just asking these questions will add a few seconds here, a minute or two there, and unless there's a filter system in place to divert every "irregularity" out of the main queue, the domino effect of these small delays will be compounded.

Edit: ... and our old friend "reciprocity" rears his head! Regarding covid control measures for travel this summer:

Add to that the amount of time being wasted due to the complaining being made by the UK passport holders having to understand that they are no longer allowed use the same lanes as before, complaining about the questions being asked, etc

Peregrinus

dogbert27 wrote: »

Add to that the amount of time being wasted due to the complaining being made by the UK passport holders having to understand that they are no longer allowed use the same lanes as before, complaining about the questions being asked, etc

They'll get used to it quite quickly. "Mustn't grumble" is, after all, the British way.

yagan

Peregrinus wrote: »

They'll get used to it quite quickly. "Mustn't grumble" is, after all, the British way.

And they love queueing.

There's no real way for the UK arrivals to be treated any differently to a Canadian, USA, Australian or other non-EU arrival.

EU passport holders arriving into Schengen will get their passports scanned through the SIS system which can be cleared quickly, but for everyone else there's no way around manual checks, which means long queues.

Capt'n Midnight

Peregrinus wrote: »

The people who staff the immigration control booths aren't provided by the airport; they are provided directly by the relevant government department. Whether to provide more of them is, therefore, a political decision.

They are fully staffed now. So they'll have to hire and train new people if they want more bodies.

timetogo1

Peregrinus wrote: »

"Mustn't grumble" is, after all, the British way.

I think that ship has sailed.

dogbert27

yagan wrote: »

And they love queueing.

There's no real way for the UK arrivals to be treated any differently to a Canadian, USA, Australian or other non-EU arrival.

EU passport holders arriving into Schengen will get their passports scanned through the SIS system which can be cleared quickly, but for everyone else there's no way around manual checks, which means long queues.

As a third country would their luggage under go more scrutiny at security?

HalloweenJack

dogbert27 wrote: »

Add to that the amount of time being wasted due to the complaining being made by the UK passport holders having to understand that they are no longer allowed use the same lanes as before, complaining about the questions being asked, etc

Malaga airport is the one I use the most.

More often than not, when there has been any kind of delay because a passenger has been stopped when getting their bags scanned and getting snotty with the staff, the complaining passenger has been English. Other nationalities tend to get on with things but English travellers are more likely to take offence and be less co-operative. Americans are a close second.

I can only see this increasing with the added complications of post-Brexit travel for them.

ancapailldorcha

HalloweenJack wrote: »

Malaga airport is the one I use the most.

More often than not, when there has been any kind of delay because a passenger has been stopped when getting their bags scanned and getting snotty with the staff, the complaining passenger has been English. Other nationalities tend to get on with things but English travellers are more likely to take offence and be less co-operative. Americans are a close second.

I can only see this increasing with the added complications of post-Brexit travel for them.

That sounds about right. My general perception based on living here for over a decade now is that a huge proportion of the UK's population have a fairly poor grasp of both their history and their place in the world. When I was a bit more naive I remember getting quite frustrated about the general reaction here to the EU's announcement of the 5-year travel visa for about 30 pounds.

The overarching attitude here seems to be that rules are fine for other people, namely foreigners but not for English people.

I remmeber landing at Heathrow from Tokyo back in 2015 and queuing. An Ennglish man in front of me asked his wife whether or not the UK was in the EU. This was just over a month before the election of that year when Cameron won and had promised the accursed referendum.

Sam Russell

HalloweenJack wrote: »

Malaga airport is the one I use the most.

More often than not, when there has been any kind of delay because a passenger has been stopped when getting their bags scanned and getting snotty with the staff, the complaining passenger has been English. Other nationalities tend to get on with things but English travellers are more likely to take offence and be less co-operative. Americans are a close second.

I can only see this increasing with the added complications of post-Brexit travel for them.

I can see if this becomes the norm - UK passport holders habitually complaining of delays, questions, time spent looking at the stamps in the passport, purpose of visit, etc., the officials will resort to - "EU passports first", and when they are all dealt with - "OK, non EU passports next - please have your passports open at the Visa page!"

I have learnt that when entering the US passport or customs checks - do not make conversation with the official and definitely no jokes! Speak only when spoken to and whatever you say, say nothing.

Seth Brundle

Tony Connelly is reporting that the EU is putting it to the UK to confirm that it will not reduce it's food standards which should result in improvements in any import delays from GB to NI...

The European Commission has challenged the UK to align with EU food safety rules as a "far-reaching" solution that would remove the need for most of the checks and controls on food products entering Northern Ireland from Britain.

A senior EU official said that the UK could consider aligning with EU rules until it has negotiated its own future trade agreements with other third countries.

Brussels believes the UK is resisting aligning with EU food safety rules so as not to hinder a free trade deal with the United States.

https://www.rte.ie/news/brexit/2021/0503/1213564-brexit-food-safety-rules/

dogbert27

Seth Brundle wrote: »

Tony Connelly is reporting that the EU is putting it to the UK to confirm that it will not reduce it's food standards which should result in improvements in imports from GB to NI...
https://www.rte.ie/news/brexit/2021/0503/1213564-brexit-food-safety-rules/

EU providing solutions to UK made problems!

ancapailldorcha

dogbert27 wrote: »

EU providing solutions to UK made problems!

It's just a suggestion. Alignment would be in both parties' interests. If it were politically feasible, joing the EEA/EFTA would have been the ideal resolution to the Brexit problem.

dogbert27

ancapailldorcha wrote: »

It's just a suggestion. Alignment would be in both parties' interests. If it were politically feasible, joing the EEA/EFTA would have been the ideal resolution to the Brexit problem.

I meant that it was constructive to the current situation even though there is only negativity coming from the UK towards the EU

Silent Running

Seth Brundle wrote: »

Tony Connelly is reporting that the EU is putting it to the UK to confirm that it will not reduce it's food standards which should result in improvements in any import delays from GB to NI...
https://www.rte.ie/news/brexit/2021/0503/1213564-brexit-food-safety-rules/

If only you could trust them to comply with any agreement they make.

This would have to be supported by checks in the UK. Will that be acceptable? I doubt it.

yagan

When I read that Tony Connelly piece this morning my first thought was how a reverse Teresa May backstop feel inevitable, GB eventually shuffling towards an alignment with Ireland, especially when the GFA is a Biden redline.

I'd call this new situation the Irish Regulatory Alignment, or IRA for short.